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[royard]

So we all know weight and power recharge speed (PRS) interact with each other.  You may or may not know precisely how.  After reading this, you will. 

[UPDATED]

Short version:
--Each point of Weight Capacity Bonus in your racial passive gives you +1% of global cooldown.  So +10 Weight Capacity means +10% power recharge speed for ALL of your powers. 
--Every race has a hidden starting weight bonus.   For example, a human starts the game with 200% + 30% power recharge speed.
--the racial passive weight reduction (such as salarian's 30% weight reduction for sniper rifles) is a FLAT bonus if you equip that weapon.  It doesn't matter whether you are equipped with Widow (really heavy) or Mantis (really light).  You get a FLAT +30% to your power recharge speed in both cases.  (Humans get TWO +20% if they equip two weapons.)

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Power Recharge Speed (PRS): You begin the game with exactly +200% PRS (regardless of class).  What this means is that if you have nothing equipped, you will have exactly +200% PRS. 

Weapon weight:  This is tricky.  Technically, this is a percent value.  Avenger I weighs 100%.  Avenger X weighs 50%.  Each weapon you equip will reduce your PRS by its weight. 

Example: If you just equip an Avenger X (50%), you will have 200% - 50% = +150% PRS. 

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Weight Capacity Bonus (WCB): each race has a racial passive (alliance training, etc) that gives WCB.  What does it do?  In the simplest terms, each point of WCB gives you +1% PRS. 

Example: If you have a Weight Capacity Bonus of 10, you will have 200% + 10 * 1% = +210% PRS.  But because PRS is capped at +200%, you only have +200%. 

Example: If you have a Weight Capacity Bonus of 10 and equip avenger X, you will have 200% + 10 * 1% - 50% = +160%. 

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Starting Encumbrance Capacity (SEC): Each race get some weight bonus for free.  Most races has this value at 30%, but turians has it at 40% and drells has it at 45%. 

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The racial passive weight reduction (RPWR): You typically get something like "reduce the weight of sniper rifles by 30%."

THIS IS A LIE.  (or at least not what you think it means.)

You would think that the totality of the weight of the sniper rifle will be reduced by 30%.  So a Widow I, which weighs 250%, will be reduced to 175%.  WRONG. 

The racial 30% is a FLAT value.  no matter what the weapon actually weighs, you will get a +30% bonus on your PRS. 

For humans: the 20% bonus is applied seperately on your weapons.  So you will have +40% if you equip two weapons.

Example:

Turian with assault rifle weight reduction and Avenger X: 200% (base) +40% (turian) -50% (Avenger X) +30% (weight reduction) = +220%. 

Salarian with sniper rifle weight reduction and Widow I: 200% (base) +30% (salarian) -250% (Widow I) +30% (weight reduction) = +10%

Salarian with 30 weight capacity bonus, sniper rifle weight reduction and Widow I: 200% (base) +30% (salarian) +30 * 1% (weight capacity bonus) - 250% (Widow I) + 30% (weight reduction) = +40%

Human with weight reduction, Avenger X and Widow I: 200% (base) +30% (human) -50% (Avenger X) +20% (weight reduction for Avenger) -250% (Widow I) +20% (weight reduction for Widow) = -30%. 

Modifié par royard, 15 mars 2012 - 05:39 .

[EsterCloat]

Really now? That's quite interesting. What about the 20% to all weapons from the Alliance Training tree? Is it only 20% for both weapons or do you get the 20% to each weapon separately for a total of 40% weight reduction?

Modifié par EsterCloat, 25 février 2012 - 06:24 .

[royard]

EsterCloat wrote...

Really now? That's quite interesting. What about the 20% to all weapons from the Alliance Training tree? Is it only 20% for both weapons or do you get the 20% to each weapon separately for a total of 40% weight reduction?

40%.  I will add it to the main post. 

[Praetor Knight]

Nice, subscribed.

[EsterCloat]

royard wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

Really now? That's quite interesting. What about the 20% to all weapons from the Alliance Training tree? Is it only 20% for both weapons or do you get the 20% to each weapon separately for a total of 40% weight reduction?

40%.  I will add it to the main post. 

Huh, I see. Very interesting indeed. Good job figuring that out; I had thought it actually took off a percentage of the weapon weight rather than giving a flat percentage reduction to the cooldown directly. Those perks could use with some rewording to something like "30% cooldown bonus when equipping an assault rifle" or something along those lines.

[AreleX]

thank you for your time spent on going under the hood of the mp to really figure out how things work, i appreciate the info

Modifié par AreleX, 25 février 2012 - 06:41 .

[Sabbatine]

Interesting, thanks for the explanation.

[SeiLah]

 I think it would also be interesting to explain how the formula actually works. I've seen a few topics of people asking why the 25% reduction only gave their cooldown a 0.1 second reduction.
I'll try to give the mathematical explanation for that.
So first the formula for calculating the cooldown: Given X is the sum of all your bonus (weight bonus + perk bonus + any other recharge speed bonus/penalty). Note that this bonus will be in the normal range (100% = 1).
The formula for calculating your cooldown is the following:

CD(X) = (Base cooldown) *  ( 1 + X)^A(X)
Where Base cooldown is the cooldown of a certain ability without any bonus (for exemple, cloak has a 10 seconds base cooldown), and A(X) = -1 if X > 0 or 1 if X < 0.

That gives us 2 formulas: one for when i get a bonus and one for when i get an penalty. The penalty one is pretty straightforward, the one for bonus is the interesting one.

So if you get a bonus for cooldown recharge ( X > 0) the formula is:
CD(X) = (Base cooldown) * (1 / (1 + X))

The first thing i would like to note about this is that the numbers are not as they seem. A 25% cooldown reduction will not bring you down to 75% of the base cooldown, but will give you a cooldown that is 25% faster than the base cooldown ( new cd * 1.25 = old cd).
An exemple: if you get a 25% cooldown reduction on cloak (meaning that your sum of all bonuses is 25%) you would normally expect your cooldown to be 7.5 seconds ( 10 seconds base cooldown times 0.75) but instead you get 8 seconds. That's because 8 seconds is 25% faster than 10 seconds ( 25% of 8 is 2, 8 + 2 = 10 seconds).

Now here's a graph of the cooldown formula where the x-axis is the sum of all your recharge bonus and the y-axis is the multiplier to the base cooldown you'll get:


As you can see we see that the higher the bonus is, the less effective it will be.
Let me try to explain with a simple exemple:
Say you have a 10 second base cooldown ability (like cloak) and is able to get 100% recharge bonus. That will bring your cooldown down to half (0.5), so you'll get a 5 seconds cooldown. Now let's say you're able to get another 100%, bringing your total cooldown reduction to 200%. This time your cooldown will be one third of the base cooldown (0.333...), giving you a 3.3 seconds cooldown.
If we look at the difference: In the first 100% cooldown reduction, we got a 5 seconds difference in our cooldown (10-5 = 5). In the second 100% cooldown reduction, we got a 1.7 seconds difference in our cooldown (5 - 3.3 = 1.7). As you can clearly see, the higher our bonus is, the less effective it'll be. If we take it up to 300% cooldown reduction it will give us a 2.5 seconds cooldown, a 1.2 seconds difference for 100% extra cooldown reduction.

That's why sometimes you get such a low reduction for perks with 30% cooldown reduction: your other bonus are so high this extra bonus is pretty much inneffective.



 

Modifié par SeiLah, 25 février 2012 - 08:07 .

[Kronner]

This really should have been in the game. Thank you!

[Elecbender]

Is that so?

So a Soldier with full mastery invested in weight bonuses will have no penalty for carrying a Claymore X?

If so, I'll play SP a lot more than MP simply because Shepard can carry more weapons with less penalty.

[Kronner]

Elecbender wrote...

Is that so?

So a Soldier with full mastery invested in weight bonuses will have no penalty for carrying a Claymore X?

If so, I'll play SP a lot more than MP simply because Shepard can carry more weapons with less penalty.

My krogan Soldier who wields Claymore has about +50-60% recharge time bonus. With Claymore II. Will go up to ~90% with Claymore X I think.

[Elecbender]

Kronner wrote...

Elecbender wrote...

Is that so?

So a Soldier with full mastery invested in weight bonuses will have no penalty for carrying a Claymore X?

If so, I'll play SP a lot more than MP simply because Shepard can carry more weapons with less penalty.

My krogan Soldier who wields Claymore has about +50-60% recharge time bonus. With Claymore II. Will go up to ~90% with Claymore X I think.

Well there's a difference in weight penalty between Krogan Soldier and Shepard Soldier.  I'm referring to Shepard Soldier who can have an additional +200% cooldown with his mastery talent.

[Endplanets]

This is really good stuff. Thanks.

[D Amiri]

For a Human with 30 weight points and the 20% all weapon reduction, The Shuriken X and Predator X
have no weight penalty. The Phalanx X has a weight penalty of 4%. So for a Human with maxed passive there is never a reason to carry only one gun. You can always add the Shuriken/Predator for free. If you are using a Locust or Avenger you can add a Phalanx X for free.

For the Drell or Asari with the 30% Heavy pistol reduction, all pistols except the Carnifex (not sure of the X version) are weight free.

[We Tigers]

Very interesting. I have a Turian Sentinel, and I took the Rank 4 evolution of Turian Veteran, which adds 25 points to weight capacity, for a total of 40 weight capacity. That'd give a "cap" of 280%. So it makes perfect sense as to why an Avenger I - which weighs 100% - knocked it down to 180%.

So, if you're going to pick one of the weight-related evolutions--the 25 extra points, or the 30% weight reduction for a given weapon--the Rank 4 evolution for 25 extra points will always be better since that yields a +50% regardless of which weapon you use, while the Rank 6 yields a +30% only if you use the specified weapon type. And if you opt for both, you're sitting at up to a 110% reduction for the specific weapon. Very cool.

[D Amiri]

Thank you to royard and SeiLah. Using your formulas and explanations I've made some very accurate spreadsheets for cooldowns and character builds. But by fighting with the formulas to make them generate the correct cooldowns for my Vanguards (Shepard, Human, Drell) I've found an error in the OP's explantion of racial passives.

The racial weight bonus seems to be doubled but this is not true. Each race starts with a bonus that is added to their Power recharge speed (200%). You get the entire starting bonus regardless of what you do with you passive. Putting points into the passive gives you a chance to double that starting bonus. Here are the starting values:

Shepard +275%
Human/Asari/Drell/Salarian/Quarian +230
Turian +240
Krogan +250

Then you add the passives:

Krogans +50
Turians +40
Everyboby else + 30

[vonSlash]

Interesting, and not quite what I expected.

I'm assuming that, unless you're a power-spammer or a human who always uses two weapons, you've got no reason to take the 20% reduction upgrade?

[Ghost43]

Thanks, this helps a lot. Math is a bit trial and error for someone like me, but I think I got it. In single player, a Vanguard with max weight capacity of 70 would have a bonus of 340% to start with.

If I had 2 guns with a weight of 1.5 or 150%, would give me a bonus of 190%. Charge gets a permanent bonus of 25% at lvl 2, for a total of 215%. 3.2 * 3.15 (100+215 or 1+2.15) gives me base time of 10.08. Obviously not perfect. but close enough.

To get the 4 second time of ME2, you'd need a bonus of 150%, or a +125 weight bonus and a +25 lvl 2 charge bonus.
That'd give you 215 units of your bonus to use on guns
 A Phalanx and a Scimitar if you use lvl 1 guns, or an Wraith and Mattock with lvl 10 guns. A Mattock and a Disciple at that lvl would give you the bonus of 215% again. (Weight 100% and 50% respectively).  It'd also give you a 1.5 second cooldown for pull.


Note: This rambling is mostly for my future reference.

Major bench marks are a 125% bonus and a 190% bonus. Getting below 3 seconds is doable, but hybrid classes should always use at least 140% of their weight capacity, any less is wasted on the 200% cap.

Modifié par Ghost43, 29 février 2012 - 06:25 .

[SeiLah]

Ghost43 wrote...
If I had 2 guns with a weight of 1.5 or 150%, would give me a bonus of 190%. Charge gets a permanent bonus of 25% at lvl 2, for a total of 215%. 3.2 * 3.15 (100+215 or 1+2.15) gives me base time of 10.08. Obviously not perfect. but close enough.

That 0.08 difference comes from the rounding that is made on the cooldowns. The cooldown for 215% on a 10 seconds base should be  about 3,1746031746031746031746031746032.

I've also had a similar problem: when trying to get the base cooldown for cloak, i was only able to get my weight bonus to -4%, but that still gave me a flat 10 seconds cooldown.

[royard]

D Amiri wrote...

Thank you to royard and SeiLah. Using your formulas and explanations I've made some very accurate spreadsheets for cooldowns and character builds. But by fighting with the formulas to make them generate the correct cooldowns for my Vanguards (Shepard, Human, Drell) I've found an error in the OP's explantion of racial passives.

The racial weight bonus seems to be doubled but this is not true. Each race starts with a bonus that is added to their Power recharge speed (200%). You get the entire starting bonus regardless of what you do with you passive. Putting points into the passive gives you a chance to double that starting bonus. Here are the starting values:

Shepard +275%
Human/Asari/Drell/Salarian/Quarian +230
Turian +240
Krogan +250

Then you add the passives:

Krogans +50
Turians +40
Everyboby else + 30

I noticed that, but I have no idea why that happens or whether it is a bug.  There doesn't seem to be a consistent method to interpret how those work. 

[D Amiri]

royard wrote...

D Amiri wrote...

Thank you to royard and SeiLah. Using your formulas and explanations I've made some very accurate spreadsheets for cooldowns and character builds. But by fighting with the formulas to make them generate the correct cooldowns for my Vanguards (Shepard, Human, Drell) I've found an error in the OP's explantion of racial passives.

The racial weight bonus seems to be doubled but this is not true. Each race starts with a bonus that is added to their Power recharge speed (200%). You get the entire starting bonus regardless of what you do with you passive. Putting points into the passive gives you a chance to double that starting bonus. Here are the starting values:

Shepard +275%
Human/Asari/Drell/Salarian/Quarian +230
Turian +240
Krogan +250

Then you add the passives:

Krogans +50
Turians +40
Everyboby else + 30

I noticed that, but I have no idea why that happens or whether it is a bug.  There doesn't seem to be a consistent method to interpret how those work. 

It's pretty straight forward. Your explanation of the Rank 6 weapon weight reductions is perfect.  But the formula for PRS was just alittle off.

Power Rechange Speed = 200% + [Inate Racial Bonus] + [Passive Capacity Bonus] - [Weapon Weight]

[themaxzero]

What happens if the weight goes below zero? For examples pistols can have lightweight materials that reduce weight by up to 0.9.

The funny thing is with talents that add +20% weight reduction per gun adding a lightweight material pistol could actually increase your recharge, potentially dramatically if Bioware have been sloppy and not stopped weapon weight from going below zero.

Modifié par themaxzero, 29 février 2012 - 06:24 .

[D Amiri]

themaxzero wrote...


What happens if the weight goes below zero? For examples pistols can have lightweight materials that reduce weight by up to 0.9.

The funny thing is with talents that add +20% weight reduction per gun adding a lightweight material pistol could actually increase your recharge, potentially dramatically if Bioware have been sloppy and not stopped weapon weight from going below zero.

They are treated as weightless.  The predator/Shuriken X are weightless to Human's.  All demo heavy pistols with exception of the Carnifex are weightless to Asari/Drells' who take the rank 6 passive evolution for Pistols.

[natepod42]

So, I understand the way this all works, but I'm struggling to get the number on my current Asari Vanguard. I've got a Katana II equipped, which should weigh (assuming weight decrease of weapons is linear) 1.43. With nothing invested in Asari Justicar, I should have 200% - 143% = 57%, but the game claims I have a +87% recharge. Then I got the first rank of Asari Justicar which has a +10 weight capacity bonus. With that bonus, I should have 200% - 143% + 10*2% = 77%, but the game claims 97%.

I only have rank 4 of Biotic Charge, rank 1 of stasis, and rank 1 of lift grenade.

What am I missing?

[Orc JMR]

natepod42, you are missing this post with a correction: 

D Amiri wrote...

[...]

The racial weight bonus seems to be doubled but this is not true. Each race starts with a bonus that is added to their Power recharge speed (200%). You get the entire starting bonus regardless of what you do with you passive. Putting points into the passive gives you a chance to double that starting bonus. Here are the starting values:

Shepard +275%
Human/Asari/Drell/Salarian/Quarian +230
Turian +240
Krogan +250

Then you add the passives:

Krogans +50
Turians +40
Everyboby else + 30