743 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Pretty much every single RPG (not just MMO's) I've played employs some sort of Grind system, even in limited capacities. So I can't say I agree with this.
I couldn't call myself an RPG player if I agreed they weren't fun, could I? 

Do they though? Outside of the MMO/Diablo/JRPG stereotype, is simply killing enemies you come across considered grinding? Take KotOR (as an example). There weren't really any sequences that struck me as grind heavy.

[elitecom]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Huh. I didn't dislike the ME2 scanning, but I do think the ME3 scanning is FAR better.

The planet scanning is now much faster (a common complaint of ME2 scanning was the repitition as you tried to find the richest veins of minerals). It has direct effect on galaxy at war assets and/or plots/stories on the Citadel. And the scanning between planets adds a large degree of danger due to Reaper attack.

Still, make up your mind because you haven't actually tried it yet. That's what the BSN is for, snap judgements based on incomplete detail. :innocent:

I didn't dislike the ME2 scanning nor do I dislike the system in ME3, but did you ever consider to revert back to the ME1 system? Or was it just done for after Mass Effect 1? I also see that you did indeed listen to those demanding that sidequests need to have a direct impact and link to the main quest/campaign, and you also added a degree of danger or urgency. I find that interesting.

[KainrycKarr]

Chris Priestly wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

You're willingly ignoring the fact that Bioware just removed planet exploration and didn't even try to improve on it.
Just that is a reason to criticize.

We did improve on planet scanning from ME2 to ME3. That was what was being discussed here. That was what I commented on. You can start criticizing the lack of superheroes, ham sandwiches and DDR elements as well if you are going to use this thread to criticize things that are also not included in planet scanning. I just thought we were discussing planet scanning.

Yes yes: "What? No superheroes, ham sandwiches, DDR elements, preorder cancelled". Nothing tired about that yet.

Scanning=/=exploration, Mr. Priestly.

[GreenDragon37]

 It's better.

[elitecom]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

You're willingly ignoring the fact that Bioware just removed planet exploration and didn't even try to improve on it.
Just that is a reason to criticize.

We did improve on planet scanning from ME2 to ME3. That was what was being discussed here. That was what I commented on. You can start criticizing the lack of superheroes, ham sandwiches and DDR elements as well if you are going to use this thread to criticize things that are also not included in planet scanning. I just thought we were discussing planet scanning.

Yes yes: "What? No superheroes, ham sandwiches, DDR elements, preorder cancelled". Nothing tired about that yet.

Scanning=/=exploration, Mr. Priestly.

QFT. Actually whether the exploration has been improved or not remains to be seen, since we've yet to see one of those sidequest missions.

[TobyHasEyes]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Scanning=/=exploration, Mr. Priestly.

 He didn't say it was, if anything that was a mistake other people were making. The topic was planet scanning, he commented on that, and someone asserted that he was intentionally not mentioning planet exploration.. and yet evidently Chris did not mention planet exploration because he was addressing a point on scanning

 Hence it is like hearing him answer a question about Liara's role, and then commenting "you deliberately didn't mention what is happening to Miranda".. 

 .. and then yourself baffling responding to his acknowledgement that they aren't the same with the equivalent of "Liara=/=Miranda, Mr. Priestly."

[FutureBoy81]

back when ME had promise

Modifié par FutureBoy81, 27 février 2012 - 05:54 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Wulfram wrote...

And why exactly shouldn't there be resources or War assets linked to that system? We know that just by doing the sidequests, you can unlock enough War Assets to get the perfect ending. So, why shouldn't the perfectionists be rewarded without any harm being caused to others?

Because by denying me content, you are causing me harm.

That's just... I don't know... egocentric and self entitled. By having you do something for optional content (War Assets) you are being harmed?

You are basically saying you don't actually want to do anything for that content, but you still want it.
Should we hand you people a special button that automatically grants you all the Assets in the system, without the need to find them and the risk of atracting Reapers.

QuarkZ26 wrote...

I liked the mako and i liked scanning... What's wrong with me doctor?

I'm afraid you have a severe case of Different Opinion, it's unfortunatly incurable.

KainrycKarr wrote...

Scanning=/=exploration, Mr. Priestly.

Good job you just said exactly the same as Priestly, while presenting it as a counter argument. 

[WizenSlinky0]

Il Divo wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Pretty much every single RPG (not just MMO's) I've played employs some sort of Grind system, even in limited capacities. So I can't say I agree with this.
I couldn't call myself an RPG player if I agreed they weren't fun, could I? 

Do they though? Outside of the MMO/Diablo/JRPG stereotype, is simply killing enemies you come across considered grinding? Take KotOR (as an example). There weren't really any sequences that struck me as grind heavy.

The crafting systems in the multitude of RPG's say hello to you, good sir. 9 times of 10 they need to employ some sort of grinding system in order to make those possible.

Bioware RPG's are unique in the fact they maintain very little grinding due to shunning the usual respawning enemies portion of most rpg's.

That's why I said pretty much. It's most, but not all. There will always be companies and games that break the mold. 

[ratzerman]

So instead of scanning planets for raw materials to manufacture weapons and upgrades, which, while monotonous, still made sense.... we now scan planets for fully formed weapons and upgrades.

[AlanC9]

tmp7704 wrote...
I think Terror's point is, the exact position of the ship in ME1 wasn't specified because it simply wasn't used for anything. As such, it's not a bad system -- rather, i'd argue it's elegant in the sense it doesn't burden the player with something that has zero practical impact. And that it takes no time is a bonus rather than a drawback -- because it allows you to focus on game's story rather than force you to sit there going "are we there yet?" Note how no one seems to mind that travel between systems is just a brief cutscene, e.g. while they did complain about long elevator rides. It's the same principle.

"Bad" wasn't the right word there, yep. It's limited, not bad. If you don't especially care about the exact position of the ship and travel time because you don't need it for anything then ME1 works just fine, sure. I still don't like the feel of ME1 because of the teleporting, but that's highly subjective. 

Maybe it's because I liked Starflight? It wouldn't be the first thing the ME devs took from Starflight -- ME1's planet exploration is pretty much right out of that game.

The thing that bothers me most about all the games is that all of the description data from the Galaxy map comes from the ship's computer anyway, but there's no way to access that data without actually going to the planet.

As far as the piloting mini game goes, the main reason to me why it feel superfluous is its hands-on approach to what's actually work and responsibility of a crew member, not Shepard's. The commander of vessel like that generally just gives orders where to go and isn't burdened with menial task of actually driving all the way to destination himself/herself. They think and operate in terms of larger objectives ("get to Ilos") and not "take turn left after second star system here and then right, right, forward, left and remember there's speed limit between Tuchanka and the next stargate. Oh, and at least two fuel stops."

Sure. Both ME1 and ME2, like I said, operate at a very high level of abstraction when we're on the galaxy map. Lots of convos, time, and crew actions simply go away, to be replaced by either the ship teleporting to the new location or by the little ship model moving about.

Terror_K is really bothered by the little ship model moving about. I was more bothered by the teleporting, though only a little. Since the ship model didn't bother me in the first place, I find his proposed implementation would be somewhat less fun what we're getting in ME3 -- naturally, since he's trying to solve a problem that I don't think is a problem.

I suppose you could make a case that his solution is nevertheless superior, since he's really bothered by the ME3 implementation and I only find his implementation to be slightly worse. Depends on the overall tastes of the ME3 playerbase. I don't have any data on that.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 février 2012 - 06:50 .

[AlanC9]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
You are basically saying you don't actually want to do anything for that content, but you still want it.
Should we hand you people a special button that automatically grants you all the Assets in the system, without the need to find them and the risk of atracting Reapers.

It's fairly common for RPG players to demand something like this, and to mod it in when the devs won't. How many MotB players yanked out the Spirit Meter?

[Phaedon]

tmp7704 wrote...
("grind" is widely understood as 'tedious opposite of fun", i.e. pretty much the opposite what a game is supposed to provide)

Considering that this indeed the correct definition for grinding, and that I was actually rather entertained by mining, then building your statistics is the appropriate term I should have used. Not grinding.

That's what happens when I use MMO lingo.

[Wulfram]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

That's just... I don't know... egocentric and self entitled. By having you do something for optional content (War Assets) you are being harmed?

You are basically saying you don't actually want to do anything for that content, but you still want it.
Should we hand you people a special button that automatically grants you all the Assets in the system, without the need to find them and the risk of atracting Reapers.
 

I want to do something fun for War Assets.  Not tedious makework that makes Bioware seem like teachers looking for something to pad out the day.

[Poison_Berrie]

Wulfram wrote...

I want to do something fun for War Assets.  Not tedious makework that makes Bioware seem like teachers looking for something to pad out the day.

Well what do you want to do for these extra War Assets?
I don't get why people think that you are going to have to ping everything to get the game to the satisfactory complete. I did not need to deplete every planet in ME 2 to get all the minerals I'd need.

[AlanC9]

I think you need a very large portion of this stuff to get to the optimal complete, though.

Suits me fine. The sub-optimal endings are always more interesting and more fun.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Wulfram wrote...
You said why it was silly, I was agreeing with you.  It's like a bad point and click adventure game.[/quote]
No, I said "bad point and click adventure game", to describe the system, not its quality.

An adventure game that allows you to pixel hunt is not a good adventure game.
A scanning system that allows you to search in very specific locations (asteroid belts) provides surprises, making the gameplay more diverse. I liked that from ME1.

I hated, or strongly disliked, any other element of exploration from ME1.

[quote]What?  There is no weapon customization in ME2?
[/quote]There, uh, most certainly is a weapon customization system in ME2. You customize your weapons statistically, investing the various resources that you have. And it's quite difficult to just grind till you unlock everything. It's essentially, like a traditional RPG system.

[quote]The system works great without the need to go looking for minerals.  You're limited by finding the weapon upgrades in the game.

It's not like the resources were a real restriction anyway.  You could always find more than you needed, it was merely a matter of having to go through tedium.[/quote]
In none of my playthroughs have I managed to get more resources than I needed. Unless you refer to credits, which yes, would make Shepard overly rich.

As I have demonestrated, there would be quite a problem with just finding the upgrades as loot and auto-installing them. Even if you find enough resources to just research everything, where and when you invest it matters, seeing as the statistical changes in ME2 are quite drastic.

[quote]The repercussions aren't unknown.  I gave myself 500,000 of each resource.  It works great.[/quote]
You 'gave' yourself? Gibbed save editor? Because that seriously doesn't work 'great' in the actual game. Or did you save everything in order to not research any upgrades before the SM?

[quote]The fact that you call it a "grinding" system is a compelling argument to scrap it in and of itself.[/quote]
It can only be a compelling argument for not knowing proper MMO lingo.

[quote]
Not running out of fuel was trivially easy.

Wasting my time doesn't add a limitation, it just adds tedium.  My time should never be treated as an in game resource.
[/quote]
...yes. That's exactly what I am saying. Even regardless of the risk itself, you are spending time travelling between systems. And you absolutely have to refuel. If you claim that you have explored more than one cluster without going back to the main system and refuelling, then I don't believe you. Even with an upgraded fuel tank that's barely possible. And it certainly requires multiple trips.

Should that be missing, you'd have unlocked every single upgrade within the first few missions.

[quote]Because by denying me content, you are causing me harm.
[/quote]No, you are harming yourself by choosing not to enjoy one of the game's features. Instead of actually punishing you for not playing an entire portion of the game, you just miss some icons from popping up. Let's get serious here.

Even if there was more content, rather than icons to be actually lost, you are saying that you are going to ignore the scanning gameplay altogether. And why's that? It can't be because "it doesn't feel right". Not this time. You have yet to play the game.


[quote]It's not something that it makes sense for Shepard to be doing.  He's an elite soldier, he's got vital missions to perform.  Wasting his time on trivial resource gathering should be considered a court-martial offense.

[/quote]Shepard is specifically rescuing civvies and and recovering war assets. Important war assets. What we saw recovered was Javelin cannons. If anything you'd get court martialled for ignoring this system. 

You call the Lost and Found objectives and the War Assets, for the last battle as trivial. I want to know why.

[quote]

And a totally out of scale Normandy flying around in 2D is no representation of space travel. [/quote]
Where did you get that it was trying to be? Since when are the ME games a realistic representation of the future?


[quote]
You need to explain why it is pointless. You even imply that the opposite would occur. Your opinion is interesting and level-headed and whatnot, but you don't provide any arguments to support it.

I think the idea is brilliant. The only problem I had with mining is how slow-paced and risk-free it was. I believe that this complaint is pretty common. Otherwise, why would mining be "boring"?

The new system adds serious risk and makes the pace faster. Dozens of people have remarked that in this thread.[/quote]
^ You seem to have missed this part of my post.

[quote]Emotions are indeed irrational.  But, particularly when you're discussing a piece of entertainment, acting on them is entirely rational.

"This makes me unhappy, therefore I want it to stop" is rational even if the source of that rationality isn't.
[/quote]That could have been potentially valid if this game was designed specifically for you. Seeing as the grand majority of posters on this thread are actually very positive about this new feature, and you seem to prefer to resorting to "It just doesn't feel right", instead of pointing out design flaws, then your posts concerning why it was a bad design move to create this system are invalid.



[quote]I'm in the majority of people I'm speaking for, because I'm only speaking for me.
[/quote]And seeing as you aren't the entirety of the consumer crowd, it won't get scrapped. 

[quote]There's nothing of value to improve.
[/quote]
Very well. If you seem set on being so confident of that point, how about you prove it with logical arguments, first?

 [quote] And again I'll note that in my opinion anything that can be referred to as a grinding system is something the game would probably be better off without.[/quote]
Well, I can't say that I am not happy that the weapon advancement system from ME1 got scrapped.


[quote]Not sure of your point here.  Though I think the main problem with the Mako was that people didn't realise how skippable most of the tedious stuff was.  If you ignore the dumb grinding of medallions and resources, it's fine.
[/quote]ME2 is also playable without the mining system. It's just a bit harder, because you don't research the upgrades.
You think that leaving unfinished quests is a-okay? So is the mining then.

And Mako is definitely not entirely skippable. It is required for main missions. And side quests. You can't survive without the Mako in most sidequests. There are even enviromental hazards to make  you not skip the Mako.

I still don't see what this has to do with the ME3 system. At all. It doesn't use scanning as its main grinding/stat developing/whatever. Manveer Heir has confirmed that you can gather all necessary war assets just by SP quests.
You don't even unlock upgrades from it.

The exploration system in ME3 is quite literally the most optional one yet.

[quote]Close encounters with the reapers shouldn't be so frequent as to get repetitive.  Not if they're to retain impact.[/quote]
And where did you get the frequency from exactly? I see maybe three or so flashing systems in the galaxy map. 

You are just making assumptions now.

[RolandX9]

Terror_K wrote...

So... according to this video from IGN showing the galaxy map, not only do we have to still scan planets and not only do we still stupidly pilot the Normandy around like a little toy ship, but on top of that we now have to scan the areas between planets as well?! Seriously?

Gotta say... confidence that this final part will actually be good when you don't seem to have learned from what sucked about ME2 isn't high, BioWare.

Wait, what?

Look, I'll be the first to agree that the return of the "minigame no one liked" is truly failtastic (I started a thread on this topic myself), but there's no more scanning for minerals. That alone makes this implementation considerably less annoying than the ME2 version. It's still an annoying and foolish design choice, but not nearly as made of filler as its predecessor.

[Alikain]

what are you talking about this is even more epic then two. i like it!

[Chromie]

Holy **** this guy is still going?

[G3rman]

elitecom wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

You're willingly ignoring the fact that Bioware just removed planet exploration and didn't even try to improve on it.
Just that is a reason to criticize.

We did improve on planet scanning from ME2 to ME3. That was what was being discussed here. That was what I commented on. You can start criticizing the lack of superheroes, ham sandwiches and DDR elements as well if you are going to use this thread to criticize things that are also not included in planet scanning. I just thought we were discussing planet scanning.

Yes yes: "What? No superheroes, ham sandwiches, DDR elements, preorder cancelled". Nothing tired about that yet.

Scanning=/=exploration, Mr. Priestly.

QFT. Actually whether the exploration has been improved or not remains to be seen, since we've yet to see one of those sidequest missions.

Seeing as how this thread is about scanning he doesn't have any reason to talk about the hardon you get about vehicle exploration.

[KainrycKarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Scanning=/=exploration, Mr. Priestly.

 He didn't say it was, if anything that was a mistake other people were making. The topic was planet scanning, he commented on that, and someone asserted that he was intentionally not mentioning planet exploration.. and yet evidently Chris did not mention planet exploration because he was addressing a point on scanning

 Hence it is like hearing him answer a question about Liara's role, and then commenting "you deliberately didn't mention what is happening to Miranda".. 

 .. and then yourself baffling responding to his acknowledgement that they aren't the same with the equivalent of "Liara=/=Miranda, Mr. Priestly."

If this were the case, why did he purposefully choose to quote a post about exploration, as opposed to scanning?

[KainrycKarr]

My point wasn't an attack or defense of exploration/scanning. I am completely neutral to both until I've played the game. My point was Priestly's post appeared, based on who he replied to and how, to equate planet scanning with planet exploration, which would be misleading.

[tmp7704]

Phaedon wrote...

Considering that this indeed the correct definition for grinding, and that I was actually rather entertained by mining, then building your statistics is the appropriate term I should have used. Not grinding.

That's what happens when I use MMO lingo.

I think considering how frequently the scanning was rated as nothing but tedious time sink by various posters and reviewers alike, calling it "grind" was actually right call to make. Perhaps it was a freudian slip?