743 réponses à ce sujet

[sam1612]

Old folks like me enjoy the Mako and "tedious" scanning. We are on our way out, so they cater to the younglings who have not learned patience yet. It's ok by me it's just the way of the world. I'm sure it will still be a fantastic story.

[Phaedon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Considering that this indeed the correct definition for grinding, and that I was actually rather entertained by mining, then building your statistics is the appropriate term I should have used. Not grinding.

That's what happens when I use MMO lingo.

I think considering how frequently the scanning was rated as nothing but tedious time sink by various posters and reviewers alike, calling it "grind" was actually right call to make. Perhaps it was a freudian slip?

Nah, I genuinely thought that grinding wasn't a necessarily negative term.

I agree that it was a time sink. I just didn't find it tedious.

[Wulfram]

(No quoting, that was too complicated)

It's not difficult to grind to unlock things, it's time consuming.  There's effectively no skill element, and no real limitation.

You haven't demonstrated any problems with effectively auto-installing the upgrades in ME2.  That's what the game does anyway, apart from pointless filler.

I used Gibbed to edit the save.  My enjoyment of the game went up immensely, and Shepard no longer used his super advanced stealth frigate to strip mine inhabited worlds, otherwise it was unchanged.

You haven't demonstrated any problem with just finding the upgrades.

I'm not choosing not to enjoy anything.  The feature has nothing to enjoy.

Imagine there was a clock of the Earth's population in the corner, ticking down by thousands every second.  Now tell me it makes sense for Shepard to be randomly trawling for junk, rather than doing the actually important missions he's supposed to.

There's no serious risk, you just have to do the silly annoying game again.

The majority aren't "very" positive.  They think it's an improvement over the mining game, which is about the lowest hurdle possible.

I can't speak for the majority of the consumer crowd.  I can only speak for the game I want to play, and hope that Bioware concludes that enough people agree with me.

I believe I have adequately explained the feature's uselessness.  And you haven't provided me with any valid examples of it's virtues.

I don't know the frequency.  You were the one suggesting that cutscenes would become tedious if they were repeated too often..

[Raizo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It has the potential to be extremely tedious.

1. In ME2 you never had to do that much scanning unless you were OCD or something. Getting everything you needed for the upgrades never took long and the missions were already indicated.

2. In ME3 you collect stuff that adds to your readiness level. Depending on how that works , this means you could end up doing a LOT of scanning and not by choice. Take if from someone who got to the end of KOA and then went back to collect all the lorestones(I had DH 10) it's extremely boring.

You make a very interesting point, for those of us who have no interest in multi player mineral scanning is going to be compulsary if we want to get the best ending to ME3 and while the process of gathering resources is quick enough this time around I fear that the 'escape the Reapers' mini gam could become very tedious after a while.

Modifié par Raizo, 27 février 2012 - 09:41 .

[elitecom]

G3rman wrote...
Seeing as how this thread is about scanning he doesn't have any reason to talk about the hardon you get about vehicle exploration.

Seems like I hit a nerve, I love it when I do that. Seriously just grow up and take your kindergarten vocabulary elsewhere. No need to get all agitated over a game, then again I forget how this is more than just a game for some people......

sam1612 wrote...Old folks like me enjoy the Mako and "tedious" scanning. We are on our way out, so they cater to the younglings who have not learned patience yet. It's ok by me it's just the way of the world. I'm sure it will still be a fantastic story.

I'd say that the younglings should learn some patience instead, so they can really appreciate a well crafted game.

Modifié par elitecom, 27 février 2012 - 09:37 .

[ACRAZEDMONKEY]

regardless if its worse than ME2, its still better than scanning in ME1

[Phaedon]

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

(No quoting, that was too complicated)

It's not difficult to grind to unlock things, it's time consuming.  There's effectively no skill element, and no real limitation.[/quote]
I never said that it wasn't a time sink. Space Exploration will be that throughout the series. What I said was that without a proper limit, that time sink would be completed way too fast, therefore, not even being a time sink.

I specifically brought up the problem of button smashing that would occur without this limit. A limit is required. Fuel provides that, even if some don't like that.

[quote]You haven't demonstrated any problems with effectively auto-installing the upgrades in ME2.  That's what the game does anyway, apart from pointless filler.[/quote]
Yes, I have. I'm finishing my last completionist playthrough right now. I have told you that when and on which upgrades are unlocked, matters quite a bit. Your argument supposedly breaks some tradional RPG systems.

You can eventually, unlock all skillpoints throughout the game, and that supposedly makes how you invest them in the meantime, pointless. Well...it doesn't.

You can't dismiss the importance of specialization throughout the game because you can potentially, if you are a perfectionist, make a maxed out character, in the end. To remove investing but rather add auto-unlocking in ME2 would destroy the entire weapon customization system. 

[quote]I used Gibbed to edit the save.  My enjoyment of the game went up immensely, and Shepard no longer used his super advanced stealth frigate to strip mine inhabited worlds, otherwise it was unchanged.[/quote]
Right. So you admit that you couldn't find all those resources in-game. Well, that's sort of the point I am trying to make. Either way, I'm genuinely happy that you managed to increase the personal appeal of the game.

Examples like these show why modding is important, and why Origin should be modified to allow more extensive modding.

[quote]You haven't demonstrated any problem with just finding the upgrades.[/quote]
Well, look above.

[quote]I'm not choosing not to enjoy anything.  The feature has nothing to enjoy.[/quote]
You are evading the argument.

The game offers you an optional feature and you are not taking it. You aren't losing any content but some icons either. You are quite lucky in that regard.

[quote]Imagine there was a clock of the Earth's population in the corner, ticking down by thousands every second.  Now tell me it makes sense for Shepard to be randomly trawling for junk, rather than doing the actually important missions he's supposed to.[/quote]
And by "trawling for junk" you refer to rescuing lives and preparing for the COUNTER-ATTACK by finding WAR ASSETS.

The population in Earth is exactly why you should try to find as many war assets as possible.

[quote]There's no serious risk, you just have to do the silly annoying game again.[/quote]
Which is much more slower method than just refueling in the first place.

Therefore, that takes time, and therefore, that installs another limitation.

[quote]The majority aren't "very" positive.  They think it's an improvement over the mining game, which is about the lowest hurdle possible.[/quote]
Correction: You consider it to be the lowest hurdle possible. That's not a fact.

Again, you are evading the argument. The majority is positive, you are not. If I was a developer, I'd cater to them, not you. That's just the logical option. Sorry.

[quote] I can't speak for the majority of the consumer crowd.  I can only speak for the game I want to play, and hope that Bioware concludes that enough people agree with me.
[/quote] 
They have already concluded the opposite. Therefore, there  is no point in considering your emotional feedback concerning this system vital to the success of it, in retrospect.

[quote]I believe I have adequately explained the feature's uselessness.  And you haven't provided me with any valid examples of it's virtues.[/quote]
Well, I really disliked how you could only interact with a single planet per system in ME1, and that'd bring up a pop-up text. I didn't find it tedious, although it certainly wasn't fun, but it genuinely raised a point in my head.

What's the point of having a spaceship if you can't really interact with the galaxy itself?

[quote]I don't know the frequency.  You were the one suggesting that cutscenes would become tedious if they were repeated too often..
[/quote]
That's true. Let me explain why. How many cutscenes would you expect? 10? That's not very realistic.

When cutscenes would repeat, then they'd uh, get repetitive. They'd ruin that element of the game's aesthetics. I didn't call them tedious. There's a small difference.

So, what exactly are you suggesting? Going in a system, getting the awereness meter to 100% and then showing a cutscene of a Reaper roflstomping the Normandy?

[Malanek]

ACRAZEDMONKEY wrote...

regardless if its worse than ME2, its still better than scanning in ME1

The one advantage the ME1 scanning/resource collecting had over the ME2 version was that you didn't have to do it. It made a negligable difference to gameplay either way. If you didn't do any ME2 scanning you couldn't get any upgrades which made a huge difference.

[seirhart]

ME 2 scanning was way better than 1, I actually liked the idea that you had to actually use the scanners and look for the resources on any planet

[wizardryforever]

Malanek999 wrote...

ACRAZEDMONKEY wrote...

regardless if its worse than ME2, its still better than scanning in ME1

The one advantage the ME1 scanning/resource collecting had over the ME2 version was that you didn't have to do it. It made a negligable difference to gameplay either way. If you didn't do any ME2 scanning you couldn't get any upgrades which made a huge difference.

Technically no.  You could get resources on missions and from import/second playthrough bonuses.  Hell if you've completed ME2 at least once, and you import a ME1 character, you start with 55,000 of every resource.  Not to mention a buttload of credits to buy upgrades with.  I don't ever have to scan for resources until after Horizon because of the starting bonuses, and I grab every upgrade I can.  And even then, I only had to scan for maybe thirty minutes to (at most) an hour, out of a 20-30 hour experience.  That translates to at most 5% of my game time.  That's hardly a time sink.  Whether it's boring is subjective, but it really isn't a time sink.  By contrast, ME1's side planets took up a much bigger portion of the game than the scanning in ME2.  ME2 cut down on pointless wandering, and replaced it with a much lessor evil in planet scanning.  Now they've cut down on even that.  The series keeps getting better and better.

[IronVanguard]

What?
Come on, who didn't like driving the Mako all around?
All "beep beep I'mma tank". Good times.

[Malanek]

wizardryforever wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

ACRAZEDMONKEY wrote...

regardless if its worse than ME2, its still better than scanning in ME1

The one advantage the ME1 scanning/resource collecting had over the ME2 version was that you didn't have to do it. It made a negligable difference to gameplay either way. If you didn't do any ME2 scanning you couldn't get any upgrades which made a huge difference.

Technically no.  You could get resources on missions and from import/second playthrough bonuses.  Hell if you've completed ME2 at least once, and you import a ME1 character, you start with 55,000 of every resource.  Not to mention a buttload of credits to buy upgrades with.  I don't ever have to scan for resources until after Horizon because of the starting bonuses, and I grab every upgrade I can.  And even then, I only had to scan for maybe thirty minutes to (at most) an hour, out of a 20-30 hour experience.  That translates to at most 5% of my game time.  That's hardly a time sink.  Whether it's boring is subjective, but it really isn't a time sink.  By contrast, ME1's side planets took up a much bigger portion of the game than the scanning in ME2.  ME2 cut down on pointless wandering, and replaced it with a much lessor evil in planet scanning.  Now they've cut down on even that.  The series keeps getting better and better.

You still had to scan. Platinum upgrades went well over 300k. I agree with the amount of time you had to scan, about 30 minutes is right, but that was too long on something that had no challenge. In ME1 you didn't have to collect any resources. Yes, you did have to drive the mako around on several missions to get to your goals, and yes it was tediously slow, but that was part of the mission rather than collecting resources.

[Wulfram]

Phaedon wrote...

I never said that it wasn't a time sink. Space Exploration will be that throughout the series. What I said was that without a proper limit, that time sink would be completed way too fast, therefore, not even being a time sink.

I specifically brought up the problem of button smashing that would occur without this limit. A limit is required. Fuel provides that, even if some don't like that.

Not being a time sink is good

Yes, I have. I'm finishing my last completionist playthrough right now. I have told you that when and on which upgrades are unlocked, matters quite a bit. Your argument supposedly breaks some tradional RPG systems.

You can eventually, unlock all skillpoints throughout the game, and that supposedly makes how you invest them in the meantime, pointless. Well...it doesn't.

You can't dismiss the importance of specialization throughout the game because you can potentially, if you are a perfectionist, make a maxed out character, in the end. To remove investing but rather add auto-unlocking in ME2 would destroy the entire weapon customization system.

It's not that you can unlock everything at the end.  It's that you can unlock everything immediately.

In fact, if you wanted to have an actual limitation on the equipment it would be far better to limit the player to only stuff they could find on missions.

Right. So you admit that you couldn't find all those resources in-game. Well, that's sort of the point I am trying to make.

No, I could find all resources I needed in game.  I did so, repeatedly, as the price for playing the good parts of the game.  Then on one of repeated playthrough modded, which changed nothing about the balance of the game, only allowed me to skip the pointless part.

Well, look above.

All your arguments are predicated on the false idea that resources are actually limited.

And by "trawling for junk" you refer to rescuing lives and preparing for the COUNTER-ATTACK by finding WAR ASSETS.

The population in Earth is exactly why you should try to find as many war assets as possible.

It's a galactic war.  Any war asset you can fit on your ship isn't going to make any real difference, and any lives you save will be less than the ones you're costing by delay.

Which is much more slower method than just refueling in the first place.

Therefore, that takes time, and therefore, that installs another limitation.

Not a real limitation.  Just inflicting more tedium on the player.

Well, I really disliked how you could only interact with a single planet per system in ME1, and that'd bring up a pop-up text. I didn't find it tedious, although it certainly wasn't fun, but it genuinely raised a point in my head.

What's the point of having a spaceship if you can't really interact with the galaxy itself?

Going to actually interesting places where you can do things.

That's true. Let me explain why. How many cutscenes would you expect? 10? That's not very realistic.

When cutscenes would repeat, then they'd uh, get repetitive. They'd ruin that element of the game's aesthetics. I didn't call them tedious. There's a small difference.

So, what exactly are you suggesting? Going in a system, getting the awereness meter to 100% and then showing a cutscene of a Reaper roflstomping the Normandy?

I'd expect less than that, because I wouldn't expect Shepard to be going to reaper space without very good reason - and any landing on major plot worlds should be getting special cutscenes anyway.  On those occasions that the story calls for there to be a close encounter with a reaper, you can have an exciting chase scene or a tense hiding scene in the Normandy's stealth mode.

The whole randomly trawling through space for stuff would be scrapped.  Shepard doesn't have percentage complete sign to tell him he should keep scanning rather than getting on with his mission.

[AlanC9]

Wulfram wrote...
You haven't demonstrated any problems with effectively auto-installing the upgrades in ME2.  That's what the game does anyway, apart from pointless filler.

Isn't the mining there to justify having exploration? Take away the minerals and the only point of most of the galaxy map is twenty or so N7 missions. It's just very silly from an RP sense to have Shepard trawling through random systems on the off-chance that there might be something worthy of his talents and time there.

Just to be clear, I'd be totally OK with ME having a galaxy map and design like KotORs

[voteDC]

While I'm glad that I now have infinite probes, I do find myself wondering why since we no longer need to mine for resources.

Plus given my obsessive nature to find everything, having to run away from the Reapers all the time on the Galaxy Map is going to be getting old very quickly.

[Terror_K]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sure. Both ME1 and ME2, like I said, operate at a very high level of abstraction when we're on the galaxy map. Lots of convos, time, and crew actions simply go away, to be replaced by either the ship teleporting to the new location or by the little ship model moving about.

Terror_K is really bothered by the little ship model moving about. I was more bothered by the teleporting, though only a little. Since the ship model didn't bother me in the first place, I find his proposed implementation would be somewhat less fun what we're getting in ME3 -- naturally, since he's trying to solve a problem that I don't think is a problem.

I suppose you could make a case that his solution is nevertheless superior, since he's really bothered by the ME3 implementation and I only find his implementation to be slightly worse. Depends on the overall tastes of the ME3 playerbase. I don't have any data on that.

To he honest, I'd be happy with the compromise of a mix of the two systems, i.e. instead of literally flying the little Normandy around like a toy ship, you use the ME1 style cursor to highlight the area you wish to go and investigate, and then you see the little ship move on its own to that destination, fuel ticking down without you actually steering it around. Liken it more to moving units in an RTS than literally piloting the thing.

It's not the best solution perhaps, and I pesonally find it a bit redundant, but it would at least be a step up from dinky toy Normandy. I'm sure people would ask, "what about scanning?" to which I'd say, you just have to limit it to your arrival rather than scan on the go. Many would also cry that this meant redundant clicks I guess... I dunno. All I know is, there has to be a much better way of going about it than what we have here, because I still think we're essentially just trading planet scanning for system scanning, with a slightly more binary detection system and the fact Reapers may chase you down. I mean... how annoying would planet scanning have been in ME2 if doing to much of it made you leave the planet on penalty of losing the game or something else almost as bad on top of that?

[AlanC9]

I could live with that control scheme. As fond as I am of Starflight, I don't think its controls are necessary in ME.

I think being hunted would have made ME2 scanning better, actually. Strip-mining whole systems is the efficient strategy in ME2, but it means you almost never get any of the N7 missions unless you're specifically looking for N7 missions. Having to run to a new system would have made me cover more of the map. I suppose drastically reducing the rate of mineral gain would have had the same effect... but I'm not sure that would have gone over too well.

[tmp7704]

Easy fix to ME2 mining would be getting rid of it entirely, and providing large chunks of resources as reward for the N7 missions. Then you still have that need for exploration, just without the sitting on your ass and combing deserts for hours part.

[AlanC9]

Hmmm -- that might have worked. Probably want to rebalance mineral awards in the missions so they're as good as the N7 awards too. SoZ took a lot of grief because XP awards for random overland battles were so much greater than XP awards for exploring cave complexes and so forth, even when the actual opposing forces were the same strength.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 février 2012 - 11:26 .

[Aimi]

Terror_K wrote...

To he honest, I'd be happy with the compromise of a mix of the two systems, i.e. instead of literally flying the little Normandy around like a toy ship, you use the ME1 style cursor to highlight the area you wish to go and investigate, and then you see the little ship move on its own to that destination, fuel ticking down without you actually steering it around. Liken it more to moving units in an RTS than literally piloting the thing.

We, uh, kind of have that on the PC.

[Terror_K]

AlanC9 wrote...

I could live with that control scheme. As fond as I am of Starflight, I don't think its controls are necessary in ME.

I think being hunted would have made ME2 scanning better, actually. Strip-mining whole systems is the efficient strategy in ME2, but it means you almost never get any of the N7 missions unless you're specifically looking for N7 missions. Having to run to a new system would have made me cover more of the map. I suppose drastically reducing the rate of mineral gain would have had the same effect... but I'm not sure that would have gone over too well.

Well, while almost entirely another matter, most of the N7 missions being discovered by scans was never a good move, IMO. I always preferred ME1's more proper set-ups that gave you a reason to go to a place rather than just stumbling across it. This not only provided more logic, but better integrated, more varied and simply better set-up sidequests. It was far more immersive and rewarding to talk to somebody on The Citadel, hear from Admiral Hackett, get an actual distress call, hear a news report about an incident or find a tidbit in a hacked terminal than it was to just stumble across a system and have EDI say, "I have detected an anomaly." I mean... half the time I even wondered how it even was an anomaly at all. How exactly was EDI determining an illegal Blue Suns mining operation from a genuine one, or a terrorists weapons facility from an official government one, etc?

daqs wrote...

We, uh, kind of have that on the PC.

Not really, since it's the PC version I have and play. I still have to steer my silly little toy ship around. I'm talking about clicking on a place and then you see the ship go there on its own, rather than steer the ship towards a place and then clicking the place.

Modifié par Terror_K, 27 février 2012 - 11:38 .

[Ajwol Semreth]

Looks a lot better to me. I just hope your Reaper Alertness level in any given system decays over time, so we can return to said system at a later date and finish scanning it.

[Aimi]

Terror_K wrote...

Not really, since it's the PC version I have and play. I still have to steer my silly little toy ship around. I'm talking about clicking on a place and then you see the ship go there on its own, rather than steer the ship towards a place and then clicking the place.

So you basically want a system where you click once instead of holding the mouse button down, to the exact same effect?

Isn't that a kind of pointless modification?

[AlanC9]

Terror_K wrote...
Well, while almost entirely another matter, most of the N7 missions being discovered by scans was never a good move, IMO. I always preferred ME1's more proper set-ups that gave you a reason to go to a place rather than just stumbling across it. This not only provided more logic, but better integrated, more varied and simply better set-up sidequests.

Hey, I'm just fine with that. Note, however, that it's tantamount to removing "exploration" altogether.

[AlanC9]

daqs wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Not really, since it's the PC version I have and play. I still have to steer my silly little toy ship around. I'm talking about clicking on a place and then you see the ship go there on its own, rather than steer the ship towards a place and then clicking the place.

So you basically want a system where you click once instead of holding the mouse button down, to the exact same effect?

Isn't that a kind of pointless modification?

Did you have to bring that up? I was able to agree with him as long as I didn't think too hard about it.