159 réponses à ce sujet

[Amikae]

Mclouvins wrote...

Amikae wrote...

I've watched that only once, but I am not a fan of this guy.

It's just that with all the controversy lately, I took a good look at the situation and where things are going and I saw this. Back in the days when you bought a game, you got the whole package. Today, you buy a game and then keep on paying for stuff. It's a sweet business, I don't doubt that. This way they can rush games with less content, sell it for full price, continue creating content and sell it again and again, rather than just make one huge game. I mean if ME3 really is 40 hours, that's barely acceptable for RPG standarts. As if that's not bad enough, every cosmetic thing, gadget, gun, skin or whatever they throw at us after the launch, comes at a price. How nice.

Forty hours is pretty good, it's not Sandbox rpg length but it's longer than most story-driven rpgs. Honestly if you look at a lot of achievement tracking and stuff like that extending it could be a bad idea. For a lot of people money isn't really the limiting factor in terms of gaming, it's time. CNN had an article a few years back about how only 10% of people finished Red Dead Redemption, not an rpg I know but it's close enough.

A RPG is never long enough. That is if you like Roleplaying games and not just pew pew through stuff. I couldn't care less about the shooting mechanics or MP. It's a RPG first(at least I hope it is) and everything else follows. I've never met a fan of RPGs, that complained to me, that Skyrim is too long. I've got 70 hours into that game and haven't even 2/3 of it. But not only that, KOTOR 1 - 2 is still longer than and it's not sandbox. 

[John Never Dies]

I love how people ask for DLC and so they make DLC after the game is done and then release it on the first day for everyone and some complain because they think they can't complete the game without it.

Instead of boycotting a great game, do this.

No longer ask for DLC. To do this make a petition, don't buy DLC, etc.

If that doesn't work try to get Bioware to only release the DLC you asked for several months after the game has come out. Im sure if you get enough people one of these could happen.

But, as we all know come March 6th you will be walking out of Gamestop, ME3 and 1600 MSPoints or PSN card in hand.

Modifié par John Never Dies, 26 février 2012 - 05:01 .

[Clearly Balkan]

 Do what ever you want.

Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

[AlanC9]

Amikae wrote...
'From Ashes' and what they did with is something every gamer out there should be concerned, but I think what's more important is the situation with cosmetic DLC's. Stuff like guns, armors and skins, or even the Genesis DLC. Right now Alternate Appearance Pack 1 and 2 + Firepower Pack + Aegis Pack + Equalizer Pack + Genesis = 1120 MS Points = about 15$ = 1/4 the price of Mass Effect 3. For 15 $ you get an interactive comic, 6 skins and a few guns/armors. What?

I agree. Totally overpriced. Didn't want it, didn't buy it.

I know the BioWare Def Force will jump on me now. People will tell me, that it's cheap and no one cares about 15$. It's not about the 15$, it's about where things are going..

Well, as a charter member of the BDF, I guess I need to respond to that. (I don't think I'm actually the first member --that would be In Exile IIRC, but you'd have to check with Terror_K.)

I'm not going to tell you that it's cheap, or that nobody cares about $15. "Cheap" is a subjective determination, and some gamers do care about $15, though many do not.

What I am going to tell you is that this isn't worth caring about. Some other gamers are buying stuff that we don't think is worth the price? That's their problem. Not mine. Not yours.

[Candidate 88766]

People saying that a few years from now we'll have to pay for the ending or for every character are the same as companies saying that in a few years piracy will have totally destroyed the industry. Its nonsense.

Also, I disagree with this:

Amikae wrote...

Every cosmetic DLC out there should be FREE. It adds polish to the game, nothing more. Nothing can justify such paid DLC's. 

If people are willing to pay for this stuff, then there is a market for it. Its basic supply and demand. People are willing to pay for these cosmetic DLCs, so it would be foolish for a company not to charge for them

Whether they're worth the price is up to the consumer. I personally thought the alternate appearance packs were quite expensive for what they are.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 26 février 2012 - 05:05 .

[AlanC9]

Amikae wrote...
A RPG is never long enough. That is if you like Roleplaying games and not just pew pew through stuff. I couldn't care less about the shooting mechanics or MP. It's a RPG first(at least I hope it is) and everything else follows. I've never met a fan of RPGs, that complained to me, that Skyrim is too long. I've got 70 hours into that game and haven't even 2/3 of it. But not only that, KOTOR 1 - 2 is still longer than and it's not sandbox. 

I prefer a game that I can complete in 30-40 hours, myself.

I'm not going to tell you that Skyrim was too long, though. I found Morrowind so dull that I never tried another Bethesda game.

[DOGGEH84]

I wonder how many of there peopel have ACTUALLY cancelled their pre-order.

From Ashes is DLC. Making it optional from the game. I for one am really glad to have some DLC already.

The people that complain its day one DLC. Play the game. Do whatever you want. Complete it. When you have finished everything or most things. There is DLC there waiting for you when YOU are ready to download it.

[Mclouvins]

AlanC9 wrote...

Amikae wrote...
A RPG is never long enough. That is if you like Roleplaying games and not just pew pew through stuff. I couldn't care less about the shooting mechanics or MP. It's a RPG first(at least I hope it is) and everything else follows. I've never met a fan of RPGs, that complained to me, that Skyrim is too long. I've got 70 hours into that game and haven't even 2/3 of it. But not only that, KOTOR 1 - 2 is still longer than and it's not sandbox. 

I prefer a game that I can complete in 30-40 hours, myself.

I'm not going to tell you that Skyrim was too long, though. I found Morrowind so dull that I never tried another Bethesda game.

It's a quality vs quantity arguement. TES games may be long but a lot of it is low quality recylced dungeons with no new or interesing enemies and lots of inventory management while trying to be able to move. Most modern western narrative framed rpg's are around the 40-ish hour mark though. The Witcher 2 was supposed to be something like that, Deus Ex was pretty close as well.

[Amikae]

AlanC9 wrote...

What I am going to tell you is that this isn't worth caring about. Some other gamers are buying stuff that we don't think is worth the price? That's their problem. Not mine. Not yours.

The problem is, that I buy stuff, that I care about. And by stuff I mean games. I own every BioWare game up to DA2. I bought them, instead of pirating them. I did it because I've always loved the quality of BioWare's products. They really are top notch. One year ago, if someone told me, that on the launch of ME3 I will boycott the game and not buy it, I would have laughed hard. There was nothing, that could shake my fanboysm, but here we are, the launch is near and I'm not buying the game. And not only that, I don't see a reason to buy any of EA/BioWare or any other game by any other Publisher, that's filled with ****ty DLC's. I can just download everything at the local trackers and play it for free, without being bothered by Origin, or Steam, or Ubisofts DRM's, or whatever.

Now publishers like CDProject, I will always buy their games and support them, because they treat me as a customer with care and respect. Example - The Witcher 2 goes to XBOX360 with a lot of new content, PC gets the same for free. Now look at BioWare selling us Genesis. What the hell? Why would I want to support them or any other company, that does the same?

[AlanC9]

Amikae wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

What I am going to tell you is that this isn't worth caring about. Some other gamers are buying stuff that we don't think is worth the price? That's their problem. Not mine. Not yours.

The problem is, that I buy stuff, that I care about. And by stuff I mean games. I own every BioWare game up to DA2. I bought them, instead of pirating them. I did it because I've always loved the quality of BioWare's products. They really are top notch. One year ago, if someone told me, that on the launch of ME3 I will boycott the game and not buy it, I would have laughed hard. There was nothing, that could shake my fanboysm, but here we are, the launch is near and I'm not buying the game. And not only that, I don't see a reason to buy any of EA/BioWare or any other game by any other Publisher, that's filled with ****ty DLC's. I can just download everything at the local trackers and play it for free, without being bothered by Origin, or Steam, or Ubisofts DRM's, or whatever.

So you've decided to make it into your problem. Because games have some content that you don't want to buy, you'd rather have no game at all than have the game without the content that you .....don't want to buy. That sounds silly and self-destructive. Still, not my problem.

Or are you talking about piracy? In which case we're probably gonna see a lock in a few seconds, and maybe a ban. I don't know what you meant there by "trackers".

[Gatt9]

AlanC9 wrote...

Amikae wrote...
'From Ashes' and what they did with is something every gamer out there should be concerned, but I think what's more important is the situation with cosmetic DLC's. Stuff like guns, armors and skins, or even the Genesis DLC. Right now Alternate Appearance Pack 1 and 2 + Firepower Pack + Aegis Pack + Equalizer Pack + Genesis = 1120 MS Points = about 15$ = 1/4 the price of Mass Effect 3. For 15 $ you get an interactive comic, 6 skins and a few guns/armors. What?

I agree. Totally overpriced. Didn't want it, didn't buy it.

I know the BioWare Def Force will jump on me now. People will tell me, that it's cheap and no one cares about 15$. It's not about the 15$, it's about where things are going..

Well, as a charter member of the BDF, I guess I need to respond to that. (I don't think I'm actually the first member --that would be In Exile IIRC, but you'd have to check with Terror_K.)

I'm not going to tell you that it's cheap, or that nobody cares about $15. "Cheap" is a subjective determination, and some gamers do care about $15, though many do not.

What I am going to tell you is that this isn't worth caring about. Some other gamers are buying stuff that we don't think is worth the price? That's their problem. Not mine. Not yours.

Actually,  it's all of our problem.

Because if they can,  they will try to sell you your whole game ala carte.  If we don't protest now,  and EA warps the industry,  in a couple years buying a copy of Rome Total War 2 will be...

-$60 for each game,  you get one opponent civilization.
-$10 for each of the 30 other civilizations
-$10 for naval combat
-$10 for each of the 32 civilization's unique units.

You're assumption is that they won't try to milk us,  that's the trust we gave them when DLC first became the industry buzz.  Here we are today with EA and Project $10 and Online Pass,  used to punish the honest consumers so they can force used game buyers to pay them.

We're rapidly sliding to ala carte gaming.  Acceptance of this behavior inches us closer.

So yes,  it's your problem,  and my problem,  and everyone elses problem.  Because things will get *alot* worse if this behavior is rewarded.

Edit:

Further,  keep in mind,  some number of people defending it are likely young teenagers who aren't paying for it,  just bugging parents into giving them money without any idea of what's happening.

Modifié par Gatt9, 26 février 2012 - 05:23 .

[Lightweight Nate]

Honestly, I hate what they're doing, but I'll still buy it. Most big companies could all share this slogan: "F**k it, we know you'll buy it". Think about it. Activision, Treyarch, EA, Nike, Apple, etc.

[ArkkAngel007]

Couldn't have done this on the actual thread up top?

And people still put in work in conceptually designing, programming, testing, implementing audio, marketing, and distributing that DLC. Making new guns in particular isn't as simple as you seem to believe it is (my example of what goes in is in fact focused on the guns). While the pricing may not be sound, just saying that all cosmetic DLC should be free is just arrogant.

Skins now, that isn't the same amount of work, not even close, so I can understand wanting that for free or at least cheaper than what they have been pushing them for.

Don't think I don't see where you're coming from, because I do. I just think that you don't understand what all goes into bringing you that content that you take for granted and demand.

[Unit-Alpha]

No, we should charge for appearence DLC, and make the other, story DLC cheaper or free. Much better option.

[Amikae]

AlanC9 wrote...

Amikae wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

What I am going to tell you is that this isn't worth caring about. Some other gamers are buying stuff that we don't think is worth the price? That's their problem. Not mine. Not yours.

The problem is, that I buy stuff, that I care about. And by stuff I mean games. I own every BioWare game up to DA2. I bought them, instead of pirating them. I did it because I've always loved the quality of BioWare's products. They really are top notch. One year ago, if someone told me, that on the launch of ME3 I will boycott the game and not buy it, I would have laughed hard. There was nothing, that could shake my fanboysm, but here we are, the launch is near and I'm not buying the game. And not only that, I don't see a reason to buy any of EA/BioWare or any other game by any other Publisher, that's filled with ****ty DLC's. I can just download everything at the local trackers and play it for free, without being bothered by Origin, or Steam, or Ubisofts DRM's, or whatever.

So you've decided to make it into your problem. Because games have some content that you don't want to buy, you'd rather have no game at all than have the game without the content that you .....don't want to buy. That sounds silly and self-destructive. Still, not my problem.

Or are you talking about piracy? In which case we're probably gonna see a lock in a few seconds, and maybe a ban. I don't know what you meant there by "trackers".

Piracy is out there and banning me won't change that. By that I am saying, that the developers and publishers don't hold all the cards. Every game out there with very very few exceptions can be pirated. So how are they fighting this? With DLC's? That's just cruel. There is content, that I don't want to buy, but at the same time, it sure would have been nice if I had all the weapons available to suit my taste, no? Why do I have to pay for them? So EA/BioWare/Ubisoft/whatever can be pricks about it and sell us GUNS and SKIN, but I can't be a ****** by pirating their game?

I am fine with buying proper content, like Arrival and the other major DLC's. But forcing me to pay for guns, armors and skins is just sick. I am not tolerating this. It may not be the reason for me cancelling my preorder, but it sure will be the reason for me not buying any other game, that comes with a plethora of haircuts, interactive comics and all sorts of crap, that should have been free.

[AlanC9]

Gatt9 wrote...

Actually,  it's all of our problem.

Because if they can,  they will try to sell you your whole game ala carte.  If we don't protest now,  and EA warps the industry,  in a couple years buying a copy of Rome Total War 2 will be...

-$60 for each game,  you get one opponent civilization.
-$10 for each of the 30 other civilizations
-$10 for naval combat
-$10 for each of the 32 civilization's unique units.

You're assumption is that they won't try to milk us,  that's the trust we gave them when DLC first became the industry buzz.

No, my assumption is that people will make rational decisions about how to spend their money. 

Would people actually pay the $60 for Rome Total War 2 with only one opponent civilization?

I'm not scared of ala carte gaming. Unless I have to be scared of other gamers' spending habits, which I guess is a possibilty

Further,  keep in mind,  some number of people defending it are likely young teenagers who aren't paying for it,  just bugging parents into giving them money without any idea of what's happening.

I really don't think this is very common. The teenagers in my extended family are quite careful with their cash relative to the adults, since bugging parents for money only works so often.

[Lady Niltiak]

Amikae wrote...

Piracy is out there and banning me won't change that. By that I am saying, that the developers and publishers don't hold all the cards. Every game out there with very very few exceptions can be pirated. So how are they fighting this? With DLC's? That's just cruel. There is content, that I don't want to buy, but at the same time, it sure would have been nice if I had all the weapons available to suit my taste, no? Why do I have to pay for them? So EA/BioWare/Ubisoft/whatever can be pricks about it and sell us GUNS and SKIN, but I can't be a ****** by pirating their game?

I am fine with buying proper content, like Arrival and the other major DLC's. But forcing me to pay for guns, armors and skins is just sick. I am not tolerating this. It may not be the reason for me cancelling my preorder, but it sure will be the reason for me not buying any other game, that comes with a plethora of haircuts, interactive comics and all sorts of crap, that should have been free.

Newsflash sweetheart: Nothing is free. The whole damn world is quid pro quo.

[AlanC9]

Amikae wrote...

I am fine with buying proper content, like Arrival and the other major DLC's. But forcing me to pay for guns, armors and skins is just sick. I am not tolerating this. It may not be the reason for me cancelling my preorder, but it sure will be the reason for me not buying any other game, that comes with a plethora of haircuts, interactive comics and all sorts of crap, that should have been free.

Forcing? That's idiotic. Don't want them? Dont buy them

You're actually going to make the DLC problem worse, not better. Every person who boycotts the whole game because he doesn't like the DLC increases the percentage of buyers who do buy the DLC.

I'm doing more to stop DLC than you are. When Bio looks at my profile they see a fan who buys their games but never buys any DLC (DA:UE excepted). If there were more game buyers who don't think the DLC is worth it there wouldn't be as much DLC.

[ninjaNumber1]

I think what people have to realize first is that there is actually nothing wrong ethically with what Bioware or other DLC seller is doing. For an example, if I made the movie Dark Knight Rises and I decide that I am going to sell the tickets at $10,000, its not unethical. Why?

1) Because seeing a movie is not a basic human necessity
2) I am not forcing anyone to buy it
3) I am the one who creates it

So as long as I make a game that took reasonable effort required for a game, and if I choose to make something extra and charge more for it, even thought it might even be the actual ENDING of the game, I am well within my rights to do so.

The people who keep complaining that 'for ashes' is unethical for an example are doing so without any basis. Without seeing what the actual standard game looks like, it is impossible to tell BW that without 'from ashes', the game does not meet the $59.99 price tag. So there is no way to tell if what BW has done with this DLC is unethical or not.

But what we as fans feel is betrayal of our trust. For an example, we trusted BW to give a complete package where all story elements from previous games would be wrapped up and available to all. So to make a character belonging to a race that seemed so important in the previous two games only available for extra cost seems like a betrayal of our trust. I think we are truly right in feeling that way.

With the loads of DLC these days, many gamers have become desensitized to this form of betrayal. We have come to see game companies as mere businesses out to get you. But for some, from the old days and who have experience with companies like Valve, feel that this is not how the consumer and game company relationship should be. In that sense, what is happening today is distasteful.

It is this important element that people who encourage this model are missing. They are truly correct in saying game companies don't do anything unethical. But what they do is build a pretty bad relationship with the consumer.

In short, I feel the right thing to do in such a situation, is to get the standard game and NOT get the DLC or CE. So OP, perhaps you should just get the standard version and not bother about the DLC or just watch it on Youtube when someone uploads it.

[AlanC9]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...
 For an example, we trusted BW to give a complete package where all story elements from previous games would be wrapped up and available to all. So to make a character belonging to a race that seemed so important in the previous two games only available for extra cost seems like a betrayal of our trust. I think we are truly right in feeling that way.

There's no actual reason to think that From Ashes will wrap up any story elements from previous games that aren't wrapped up in ME3 proper. From Ashes will wrap up Prothy's story; that's it.

Which doesn't mean you have to feel good about it.

[ninjaNumber1]

AlanC9 wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...
 For an example, we trusted BW to give a complete package where all story elements from previous games would be wrapped up and available to all. So to make a character belonging to a race that seemed so important in the previous two games only available for extra cost seems like a betrayal of our trust. I think we are truly right in feeling that way.

There's no actual reason to think that From Ashes will wrap up any story elements from previous games that aren't wrapped up in ME3 proper. From Ashes will wrap up Prothy's story; that's it.

Which doesn't mean you have to feel good about it.

Depends on how you look at it of course. But I think even BioWare disagrees with you on this one. From what they have said, the Prothean character is for fans who followed the lore closely. So in a sense, this means that this character must be of some closure/importance for the fans.

It is this depravation of something that has such importance that causes the distaste. Is it unethical? NO! Is it how a good friend treats you? HELL NO!

So this is what disappoints people I think. They've come to see developers and publishers at times like someone they admire and are doing it to because it pleases them to see their fans pleased. But when something like this happens, its like a rude wake-up call.

[Aulis Vaara]

Lady Niltiak wrote...

Newsflash sweetheart: Nothing is free. The whole damn world is quid pro quo.

Sunlight, fresh air, an amazing universe, true friendship, family, comfort, love, happiness, ideas, torrents, etc.

Plenty of free stuff in this world. In fact, everything could be free if we as a society really wanted to, if we educated ourselves and others that we work for our own happiness and that of others rather than for money. But hey, some people just don't want to accept that this is possible, and that's why we live in a ****ty world where every tries to rip you off because that's the way the game is played.

And like I said before: I don't think this is about the money, but rather about how this was done. Important content was cut from the game with the eye to sell it to us for more. If they had made the game just five or ten bucks more expensive, only the people who really don't want multiplayer would have complained (attributing the increased price to that feature). Or perhaps they could've let people choose between multiplayer and the squaddie when getting the game, making the other five bucks (really, what is with the ten bucks prices? so bloody expensive...)

[mackan__s]

Sad for you. I did not, and either im going to do

[AkiKishi]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

I think what people have to realize first is that there is actually nothing wrong ethically with what Bioware or other DLC seller is doing. For an example, if I made the movie Dark Knight Rises and I decide that I am going to sell the tickets at $10,000, its not unethical. Why?

Do you see a big sticker on the ME3 box saying Prothean £10 ? Until they do that sort of thing it's ethically wrong.

Day 1 DLC is an attempt to increase the price of a game in an underhanded manner because they know that the mass market won't accept an honest visibile £10 price increase.

[AJRimmsey]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

Lady Niltiak wrote...

Newsflash sweetheart: Nothing is free. The whole damn world is quid pro quo.

Sunlight, fresh air, an amazing universe, true friendship, family, comfort, love, happiness, ideas, torrents, etc.

Plenty of free stuff in this world. In fact, everything could be free if we as a society really wanted to, if we educated ourselves and others that we work for our own happiness and that of others rather than for money. But hey, some people just don't want to accept that this is possible, and that's why we live in a ****ty world where every tries to rip you off because that's the way the game is played.

And like I said before: I don't think this is about the money, but rather about how this was done. Important content was cut from the game with the eye to sell it to us for more. If they had made the game just five or ten bucks more expensive, only the people who really don't want multiplayer would have complained (attributing the increased price to that feature). Or perhaps they could've let people choose between multiplayer and the squaddie when getting the game, making the other five bucks (really, what is with the ten bucks prices? so bloody expensive...)

rep point +2

greed is why society today is on a downward spiral.

I read somewhere that in the USA the 1% owns 90% of the wealth,hows that sustainable ?
theres a change coming or we as a species are heading toward a mad max world sooner than we think,probably around the time the oil runs out.

I`m ready for it...started getting used to human meat and drinking urine ;

Modifié par AJRimmsey, 26 février 2012 - 08:18 .