373 réponses à ce sujet

[cooldevo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And you're assumeing Loghain has some super talent-spotting ability? Allistair knows more about Grey Wardens that Loghain does. Where do you pull this stuff out?
Being a great tactician has nothing to do with beinga great recruiter.

It has nothing to do with Grey Warden skills. There is no such thing as special Grey Warden skills.   It's their normal everyday skills that make them stand out and get noticed.  There are NO special Warden skills at all.  A general would be able to spot the best of the best a lot easier than a failed chantry/paladin when it comes to potential and training ability.  He's spent his whole life in the army, Alistair on the other hand failed as a paladin and in the chantry as he openly admits.

Loghain isn't necessary to stop the Blight. Ergo, he is not breaking his oath.
Loghain MIGHT be usefull, but so can pretty anyone else you ran into. At the same time he's also a great liability.

Alistairs oath was to do anything and everything to stop the Blight.  At any cost.  That is the oath he broke by putting his personal squabble in front of his duty.  If you haven't taken Loghain into your party you cannot say whether he is a liability.  As a Grey Warden Loghain is now doomed to the same fate as you and Alistair.  At least he can man up and admit he was wrong after you save him.  Alistair on the other hand....

Loghain isn't such a strong, perspective adition. He had all that power behind him and you still whooped his ass.
The whole point is that YOU DON'T NEED LOGHAIN. He isn't neccesary. He isn't a must-have.
He's probably more trouble than he's worth (even thinking politicly. His trechery was exposed and he was alrleady leading the land into a civil war. How many nobles would want him dead? You granting him assylum within the Grey Warden is everything BUT being politicly neutral, it will probably p*** off half the country).

No one said Loghain was NECESSARY.  Where did I say that?  All I said was essentially having 3 Grey Wardens is better than 2.  Even a Grey Warden that was captured and tortured by Loghain and Howle agreed with my perspective, and he should be very biased against him.  He, however, is able to do his duty as a true Warden and put the Blight above his own desires.  As a true Grey Warden should.  And with the experience Loghain brings it bodes well for all Wardens.  Alistair ISN'T NECESSARY for that matter either.

And Loghain IS A HERO to Fereldan, not a traitor.  Where do you get this from?  Talk to people in the game, read the codex entries.  They are there for a reason.  Alistair is really a nobody in Fereldan's eyes.

Modifié par cooldevo, 26 novembre 2009 - 12:37 .

[tmp7704]

JamesX wrote...

The Option is a Proven Warrior and a Tactical Genius (Well by Lore, not in game performance) over an unproven newly made Warden.

Alistair is as much of a Proven Warrior as the player's character is, given they go through the very same series of events. When you think of it then with that supposed superior performance of Loghain compared to other members of the team, it should be him that takes the lead once you recruit him, no? Wonder just how well would that go with the player's character...

[cooldevo]

tmp7704 wrote...

JamesX wrote...

The Option is a Proven Warrior and a Tactical Genius (Well by Lore, not in game performance) over an unproven newly made Warden.

Alistair is as much of a Proven Warrior as the player's character is, given they go through the very same series of events. When you think of it then with that supposed superior performance of Loghain compared to other members of the team, it should be him that takes the lead once you recruit him, no? Wonder just how well would that go with the player's character...

Exactly!  Alistair is a new Warden completely unproven.  So are you.  Why would you not want someone with a lifetime of battle experience at hand ready to help you out?  That would make tactical sense.  Once Alistair takes off, you are the senior Fereldan Grey Warden left and Loghain is the junior.  After the battle if you let him live he becomes the recruiter for the Wardens (at least he did for me).  He even seemed to acknowledge that what he did was wrong a couple of times.  He'd have the experience to effectively scout out talent and the best of the best for their battle skills a lot better than Alistair or my PC.  He's spent his entire life in the military, so it should be second nature to him.  In these times Generals and Kings were at the front of an army so they had to know what they were doing.  To survive as long as they had, they needed the skill to back it up, just like Duncan who was out on the battlefield and not directing the battle.

[tmp7704]

Valmy wrote...

Well you surely would not have Sten in your party since he murdered innocent farmers and you would clearly not agree in taking help offered from somebody who deserved death.  I mean just to be consistent.  I presume you beheaded him right there?  I mean Sten wasn't even the savior of Ferelden from Orlais like Loghain.  Yet I gave Sten a second chance because I do not turn down help to defeat the Blight.

I took Sten in my party because of his reaction _after_ his (single) crime which piqued my curiosity. He didn't seem to be a common murderer but someone who deeply regretted what he did which led me to believe there could be more to it than it appeared at first glance. In comparison Loghain is adamant about everything he's done being for 'the greater good' and how nothing he did could be possibly wrong given the big picture.

[cooldevo]

tmp7704 wrote...

I took Sten in my party because of his reaction _after_ his (single) crime which piqued my curiosity. He didn't seem to be a common murderer but someone who deeply regretted what he did which led me to believe there could be more to it than it appeared at first glance. In comparison Loghain is adamant about everything he's done being for 'the greater good' and how nothing he did could be possibly wrong given the big picture.

When Loghain was in my party he admitted that he may not have done the right thing after all.  In the playthrough where I let him survive he admits it after the final fight and something about looking forward to his recruiting duty as a Grey Warden.  Does that not mean he repented as well?

And you are saying that you judge crime based on the quantity of it?  Killing an entire family is ok because Sten lost his sword, yet Loghain did an unsavable act?  Logahin claims he did what he did for his country.  Sten claims he did it for a sword.  Both are murderers, whatever the reason.

Modifié par cooldevo, 26 novembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[tmp7704]

cooldevo wrote...

Exactly!  Alistair is a new Warden completely unproven.  So are you.  Why would you not want someone with a lifetime of battle experience at hand ready to help you out?  That would make tactical sense.

It would maybe make sense if this guy with lifetime experience was actually leading and advising. Instead he's just used as obedient meatshield under the command of "completely unproven" guy that's the pc. How's that making the tactical sense, exactly?

As for why would you not want someone with the lifetime experience etc... maybe because up to this point they've been using that experience to try and kill me thus trying to prevent me from what my ultimate goal was, and they have really not much reason to stop that behaviour? When you think of it then Loghain *should* actually attempt to overthrow your character and take over the command, if he's seriously dedicated to stopping the Blight. After all, like you point out he makes the best and more experienced leader, while having things in hands of a newbie like the PC endangers the mission. And Grey Wardens are about doing whatever it takes to succeed, right...

[Alynna_tp]

I've played through the game a few times now, and I considered this situation a bit when I read this thread. The first playthrough, I executed Loghain, no questions asked.



If you do RP the story, you have to act based on the information that you are given. At that point here's what you know about Loghain:

-he's an excellent strategist

-decorated war hero

-paranoid about help from Orlais, which basically crippled your ability to fight the Blight to this point

-turned his back on the legitimate ruler to gain power for himself

-ignored the threat of a huge darkspawn army pillaging his land, that he was supposed to be saving, to take that power for himself



He weakened his nation at a time where it needed to be strong. Blight or no that was a huge darkspawn horde attacking Ostagar. He decided to give the darkspawn victory so he could take steps to protect Ferelden from Orlais.



Added to this neither the PC nor Alistair knows that a Grey Warden needs to die to defeat the Archdemon. Nor has the Archdemon appeared at this point. Riordan points out that Loghain might be a great Grey Warden. But based on the information you know about Loghain, he cannot be trusted. Who is to say he won't turn around in the last battle and walk away? "For the good of Ferelden?"



We know from the ending he doesn't do this and takes his duties seriously as a Grey Warden, but this wouldn't be known to your PC at this time. The best we can ask ourselves is to take the information we know at the moment and make the best decision. I'm not convinced that allowing him to join the Grey Wardens is the best decision. He was a traitor, and if a traitor's punishment is death, then so be it.

[tmp7704]

cooldevo wrote...

When Loghain was in my party he admitted that he may not have done the right thing after all.  In the playthrough where I let him survive he admits it after the final fight and something about looking forward to his recruiting duty as a Grey Warden.  Does that not mean he repented as well?

No, it seems rather like he *thinks* being part of that final battle somehow makes it all right. How very convenient for him. Looking forward to recruiting duty as a Grey Warden? How about looking forward to trying to retrieve the people his actions sent into slavery? Ahh but that was just elves and who cares about these...

And you are saying that you judge crime based on the quantity of it?

No, i look for the reaction afterwards. Sten lost the control once and he himself did the best he could to stop right after that. Loghain comitted multiple crimes justifying it to himself all the way and it took beating him into a corner to stop him from doing more. I think there's pretty clear difference between these two.

[NarcissaArtois]

tmp7704 wrote...

We don't know many things at that stage, indeed. But i really don't get this obsession with wanting to get Loghain on board no matter what and come hell and high water. He is just one guy with spotty track record. There's probably a dozen of better candidates for Grey Warden that could be conscripted instead of him in the Landsmeet building alone at that point, nevermind the whole Denerim.

I agree. 'Course, I didn't like him from the beginning...he just seemed off. And even though I did get a lil bit of a soft spot for the way he talked to Anora at the end...he is the one responsible there only being two grey wardens in the first place, never mind killing the king, poisoning the Arl, etc.


Speaking of the Landsmeet and of Alistair...did anyone else actually go back to a previous save because of the way he talked like he was king...even though you didn't make it so? I was so confused. Both in my play through where he died killing the archdemon when he talks about his first and last act as king AND in my second play through when I had him sleep with Morrigan and he flew off the handle about her wanting an heir to the throne...even though not thirty seconds earlier I put Anora on the throne and she made Alistair and all his heirs give up any right.
I guess when you make a huge game...a few little things get lost in the details.

Sorry...that was off topic...it was just on my mind.

[Alynna_tp]

tmp7704 wrote...

Speaking of the Landsmeet and of Alistair...did anyone else actually go back to a previous save because of the way he talked like he was king...even though you didn't make it so? I was so confused. Both in my play through where he died killing the archdemon when he talks about his first and last act as king AND in my second play through when I had him sleep with Morrigan and he flew off the handle about her wanting an heir to the throne...even though not thirty seconds earlier I put Anora on the throne and she made Alistair and all his heirs give up any right.
I guess when you make a huge game...a few little things get lost in the details.

Sorry...that was off topic...it was just on my mind.

Yeah I got confused too.  It seems its either a bug where the proper "conversation tree" doesn't open for Alistair, or an oversight in planning the voice acting for the possible outcomes of the ending.

[KCFender]

The point of the matter to me was that Loghain was foolish, deceptive, and brutal, but ultimately willing to sacrifice anything if he thought it might stop the Blight.



Alistair on the other hand, seems to gladly leave the fight for mankind when he decides that his feelings are just too hurt. Awwwww. Yes, he has every right to hate Loghain. But to demand that my PC choose between him and Loghain in our all-important effort to save mankind? Unforgivable pus-baggery. He became my least favorite character when I saw how he handled the Landsmeet. It's almost courageous how willing he is to sound like a completely ineffectual human being.



It's not a matter of good or evil to me. It's a matter of priorities, and Alistair's priorities at the Landsmeet suck. In fact, throughout the game he gives snippets of monologue that can lead one to think that he's more interested in being a Grey Warden than actually doing the job of a Grey Warden. Alistair's snark is endearing. He's overtly friendly to your PC. But is he the type of guy I'd really want as the first and last defense of mankind? Absolutely not. I'd sooner have a mad, rule-bending, law-breaking, lying, manipulative tyrant like George Dub... I mean, Loghain. Besides, you're not recruiting a King. You're recruiting a soldier, nothing more. Who cares what Loghain's morals are if he is willing to take up a weapon and fight? In the end, Loghain will join you to fight the Blight no matter who you are, and that's more than you can say for Alistair, is it not?

[tmp7704]

KCFender wrote...

But is he the type of guy I'd really want as the first and last defense of mankind? Absolutely not. I'd sooner have a mad, rule-bending, law-breaking, lying, manipulative tyrant like George Dub... I mean, Loghain.

Enjoy having your elf shipped to Tevinter in chains, since that's what the mad, rule-bending, law-breaking, lying and manipulative tyrant like Loghain decides is good place for you in order to save his country. With saviours like this who needs the Blight?

[Sarethus]

KCFender wrote...

The point of the matter to me was that Loghain was foolish, deceptive, and brutal, but ultimately willing to sacrifice anything if he thought it might stop the Blight.

Alistair on the other hand, seems to gladly leave the fight for mankind when he decides that his feelings are just too hurt. Awwwww. Yes, he has every right to hate Loghain. But to demand that my PC choose between him and Loghain in our all-important effort to save mankind? Unforgivable pus-baggery. He became my least favorite character when I saw how he handled the Landsmeet. It's almost courageous how willing he is to sound like a completely ineffectual human being.

It's not a matter of good or evil to me. It's a matter of priorities, and Alistair's priorities at the Landsmeet suck. In fact, throughout the game he gives snippets of monologue that can lead one to think that he's more interested in being a Grey Warden than actually doing the job of a Grey Warden. Alistair's snark is endearing. He's overtly friendly to your PC. But is he the type of guy I'd really want as the first and last defense of mankind? Absolutely not. I'd sooner have a mad, rule-bending, law-breaking, lying, manipulative tyrant like George Dub... I mean, Loghain. Besides, you're not recruiting a King. You're recruiting a soldier, nothing more. Who cares what Loghain's morals are if he is willing to take up a weapon and fight? In the end, Loghain will join you to fight the Blight no matter who you are, and that's more than you can say for Alistair, is it not?

Wait what? Loghain was willing to do anything to save Fereldan from a not confirmed threat from Orlais. The blight played second fiddle to him.

My character did consider sparing Loghain but I decided against it because he reminded me too much of the Warden Commander from the Wardens Keep (DLC). A person who might have the makings of a great warden but whom you could not trust to leave behind their past life. Can you imagine what would happen if a blight occurred in Orlais and you had to send Loghain there? He'd probably decide to hold back a bit and let some Orlesians die either as revenge or to weaken them and prevent them from being a threat to Fereldan. Same if Loghain was a Grey Warden and the current ruler of Fereldan decided to resume freindship with Orlais (or do something else that Loghain was not found of.) He'd lead the Wardens in to rebellion just like Sofia.  

[ReubenLiew]

I guess all that tear-jerking and oaths of vengeance on Arl Howe could be construed as a hissy-fit too, right?

Damn that makes me feel bad for killing Howe. Shame on me, for shaaame.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cooldevo wrote...

It has nothing to do with Grey Warden skills. There is no such thing as special Grey Warden skills.   It's their normal everyday skills that make them stand out and get noticed.  There are NO special Warden skills at all.  A general would be able to spot the best of the best a lot easier than a failed chantry/paladin when it comes to potential and training ability. 

He could? How do you KNOW that? You don't. Duncan looked for something ELSE in the Grey Wardens, not pure fighting potential.

Alistairs oath was to do anything and everything to stop the Blight.  At any cost.  That is the oath he broke by putting his personal squabble in front of his duty.  If you haven't taken Loghain into your party you cannot say whether he is a liability.  As a Grey Warden Loghain is now doomed to the same fate as you and Alistair.  At least he can man up and admit he was wrong after you save him.  Alistair on the other hand....

Wrong on both accounts. The Grey Wardens won't do EVERYTHING. Take a look at Duncan. Didn't he constatnly try to remain politicly neutral (in all hte origin stories). He has the Right of Conscription, yet he doesn't use it left and right with abbado. Surely having 100 new grey warden would be beneficial, right? So why doesn't he do that. Because Grey Wardens empahises SELF-sacrifice.  Which is basicly hte gist of sacrifice - not sacrificing others, but oneself.
Loghain is a big liabiltiy, not worthy of being a Grey Warden and not necessary. You could kill him a billion times and not come even clsoe to breaking your oath.
By no logical train of though can one come to the conclusion that turning Loghain i na gW is a GW's duty, and not doing it is brekaing ones oath. That is simply redicolous.

No one said Loghain was NECESSARY.  Where did I say that?  All I said was essentially having 3 Grey Wardens is better than 2.  Even a Grey Warden that was captured and tortured by Loghain and Howle agreed with my perspective, and he should be very biased against him.  He, however, is able to do his duty as a true Warden and put the Blight above his own desires.  As a true Grey Warden should.  And with the experience Loghain brings it bodes well for all Wardens.  Alistair ISN'T NECESSARY for that matter either.

And Loghain IS A HERO to Fereldan, not a traitor.  Where do you get this from?  Talk to people in the game, read the codex entries.  They are there for a reason.  Alistair is really a nobody in Fereldan's eyes.

Are you blind? You have to be to talk smack like this.

3 wardens are better than 2, but why Loghain? You got a whole city filled with potential candidates. You got both Elves and dwarves in tow to boot.
Killing Loghain is not ingoring ones duty. It's the exact opposite.

The man killed many and crossed many. The civil war is proof enough that half the coutrny wants him gone. Many of them are nobles. You practicly expose his deeds on the Landsmeet, turnign even more people away from him. He betrayed their trust, their laws, theri king. According to their laws, he is guily and the punishment is death.
By sparing him, you are spitting in the face of Ferelden law, justice and on the corpses of all he killed. This is not a good way to remain politicly neutral.

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wrong on both accounts. The Grey Wardens won't do EVERYTHING. Take a look at Duncan. Didn't he constatnly try to remain politicly neutral (in all hte origin stories). He has the Right of Conscription, yet he doesn't use it left and right with abbado. Surely having 100 new grey warden would be beneficial, right? So why doesn't he do that.

He doesn't do that cause he doesn't want somebody like Loghain kicking them out of the country.

If he starts conscripting people everywhere some might take offence at their husbands/wives/sons/daughters/moms/dads deaths.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Valmy wrote...
That has nothing to do with him.  An added benefit is it does restore people's faith in their heroes a bit and adds a bit of luster and pride to the Ferelden people.  Loghain doesn't deserve that, but it is not about deserving.  His sacrifice thus benefits the nation again as a symbolic gesture binding the nation together.

Yeah? Well executing him restores peoples faith in the rule of law and their leaders.
From any logical standpoint, executing him is politicly a better option. His guilt it proven. With a proper execution a message is sent to all of his supporters that treason will not be tolerated. With execution, you remove any possibiltiy that he will backstab you again before the end.

Sure if I had constantly done things against his will then him saying 'enough' would make sense.  But his approval was at 100 I had taken him along and he had always endorsed my decisions completely up to then...I sort of wished he had trusted me just this one time when he disagreed.

Taht's not how it works in real life either..unfortunately.

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Valmy wrote...
That has nothing to do with him.  An added benefit is it does restore people's faith in their heroes a bit and adds a bit of luster and pride to the Ferelden people.  Loghain doesn't deserve that, but it is not about deserving.  His sacrifice thus benefits the nation again as a symbolic gesture binding the nation together.

Yeah? Well executing him restores peoples faith in the rule of law and their leaders.
From any logical standpoint, executing him is politicly a better option. His guilt it proven. With a proper execution a message is sent to all of his supporters that treason will not be tolerated. With execution, you remove any possibiltiy that he will backstab you again before the end.

How many people that try to commit treason would get deterred by a death penalty? It is not like it is a hobby that you just do for the fun of it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

JamesX wrote...

The Option is a Proven Warrior and a Tactical Genius (Well by Lore, not in game performance) over an unproven newly made Warden.

The choice is pretty simple if you just look at cost/benefit relationship. The only reason I picked Alister is because (since I didn't read the novels) Loghain is an idiot that is trapped in the past and ill-prepared to adapt to the future.

Given that Duncan personalyl selected Allistair AND that yozu managed to overcome all obstacles wiht him at your side AND that he can whip Loghaains ass in a 1on1 battle... The choice IS pretty imsple.
Allistair >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Loghain

[Akka le Vil]

Valmy wrote...

I did not spare Loghain at all.  I had him inducted with the understanding he would die fighting the Darkspawn if the Joining did not kill him first.

Every soldier in your army is at the same risk. Loghain isn't being "punished" anymore than the regular footman.

Fair enough.  Did you play KOTOR and commit suicide when you discovered who you were to gain justice or did you work to redeem yourself?

This is a completely absurd comparison. My "bad previous self" in KotOR has already been effectively killed. If I was about to completely wipe Loghain's memory, I would not hold grudge over the "new" Loghain, he would effectively not be the same person.

That has nothing to do with him.  An added benefit is it does restore people's faith in their heroes a bit and adds a bit of luster and pride to the Ferelden people.  Loghain doesn't deserve that, but it is not about deserving.  His sacrifice thus benefits the nation again as a symbolic gesture binding the nation together.

Lack of justice adds luster and pride in people ? I know I would be outraged if some traitor and criminal toward the nation was spared.

Sure if I had constantly done things against his will then him saying 'enough' would make sense.  But his approval was at 100 I had taken him along and he had always endorsed my decisions completely up to then...I sort of wished he had trusted me just this one time when he disagreed.

You're absurdly meta-gaming here. Alistair shouldn't have his line in the sand just because he didn't protest about unrelated things previously ? What sense does it make ?
If I have a best friend that suddendly try to rape my wife, do you think I'll just accept it simply because we haven't argued for awhile ? What kind of reasoning is this ?

And again, you're wishing he would trust you. Well, HE wished you would trust HIM. You're not automatically right, you know

Loghain was punished btw or maybe you think Stalin let all those people he stuck WWII penal battalions off to because that was essentailly what this was.  In my mind it was absolutely justice.

Loghain wasn't punished. He was a soldier before, he was an improved soldier after. I don't see any punishment in that.

JamesX wrote...

The Option is a Proven Warrior and a Tactical Genius (Well by Lore, not in game performance) over an unproven newly made Warden.

The
choice is pretty simple if you just look at cost/benefit relationship.
The only reason I picked Alister is because (since I didn't read the
novels) Loghain is an idiot that is trapped in the past and
ill-prepared to adapt to the future.

Actually, the option is to take a proven warrior, supposed tactical genius and traitor who helped the Blight and destroyed everything that could have helped defeat it, over a proven warrior (you do not expect to consider someone who killed dragons, killed Darkspawn by the hundreds and the like, to be unproven, seriously ?), trustworthy friend that actually proved his commitment.
Suddendly, what seems obvious is to take Alistair.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Valmy wrote...
Well you surely would not have Sten in your party since he murdered innocent farmers and you would clearly not agree in taking help offered from somebody who deserved death.  I mean just to be consistent.  I presume you beheaded him right there?  I mean Sten wasn't even the savior of Ferelden from Orlais like Loghain.  Yet I gave Sten a second chance because I do not turn down help to defeat the Blight.

Sten didn't continously oppse the grey Warden. He didn't assasinate and sabotage. He killed one family in a fit of blind rage, while Loghain metcolously planned the demise of thousands and led the country into a civil war during a Blight. Sten wants to attone, he feels sorry for what he did. Loghain doesn't care.

They dont' come even close. And even then I was contemplating wether to take him in or not.

EDIT:
the Grey Wardens are't murderes and filthy criminals. Some have questionable pasts, but not a single Grey Warden you came across comes off even close as baing an evil bastard.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 novembre 2009 - 09:09 .

[Akka le Vil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

If he starts conscripting people everywhere some might take offence at their husbands/wives/sons/daughters/moms/dads deaths.

You realize this works even much better against Loghain and the godawful amount of people who had their families destroyed because of him ?
I'm not talking about a hundred people here, but tens of thousands.

[Herr Uhl]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

If he starts conscripting people everywhere some might take offence at their husbands/wives/sons/daughters/moms/dads deaths.

You realize this works even much better against Loghain and the godawful amount of people who had their families destroyed because of him ?
I'm not talking about a hundred people here, but tens of thousands.

Nah, here I don't argue for Loghain. i just provide a reason that it is not outlandish that Duncan would forcefully conscript people if they had the status that is needed.
Bugs me that he is seen as a saint, must be the beard...

And Loghain has the necessary status to get away with it, 'til those pesky wardens with help from swamp witches foiled his plan. Without you,  Loghain would have had his way.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KCFender wrote...

The point of the matter to me was that Loghain was foolish, deceptive, and brutal, but ultimately willing to sacrifice ANYONE if he thought it might stop the ORLESIANS.

Fixed.
The point of Grey Wardens to give (sacrifice) everything of THEMSELVES to stop the blight, not sacrificing others, as some are eager to interpret.
Allistair fought monsters, but was carefull not to become one himself.

Alistair on the other hand, seems to gladly leave the fight for mankind when he decides that his feelings are just too hurt. Awwwww. Yes, he has every right to hate Loghain. But to demand that my PC choose between him and Loghain in our all-important effort to save mankind? Unforgivable pus-baggery. He became my least favorite character when I saw how he handled the Landsmeet. It's almost courageous how willing he is to sound like a completely ineffectual human being.

He became my favorite character when he did that. The PC choosing Loghain is unforgivable douchebaggery and stupidity.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 novembre 2009 - 09:18 .

[Kexige]

imho Bioware dropped the ball on loghain, his reasoning does not justify poisoning the arl prior to killing the king(that he supposedly wasn't planning on doing) oh and lets not forget locking up his daughter. I was waiting for some greater evil that was behind the scenes to emerge but never did



that being said if you turn the landsmeet against him then you don't have to choose between anora and allistair, I made them rule jointly, anora doesn't freak out when you kill loghain if the landsmeet backs it