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[Lotion Soronarr]

Herr Uhl wrote...
He doesn't do that cause he doesn't want somebody like Loghain kicking them out of the country.

If he starts conscripting people everywhere some might take offence at their husbands/wives/sons/daughters/moms/dads deaths.

There are more than enough people who would jump at hte opportunity. If you read the lore and some conversatiosn with Allistair, it shows that becoming a grey warden is considered a honor - turnaments are organized to find hte best warriors.

But Duncan is picky. He only takes those who want to be wardens and fill some strange criteria of his (being a uber-badass warrir is apparently NOT one of those).

[Axterix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yeah? Well executing him restores peoples faith in the rule of law and their leaders.
From any logical standpoint, executing him is politicly a better option. His guilt it proven. With a proper execution a message is sent to all of his supporters that treason will not be tolerated. With execution, you remove any possibiltiy that he will backstab you again before the end.

Except it hasn't.  There's no cable TV station broadcasting the events.  What there was was a bunch of nobles playing political games.  And just a bit before that, a bunch of nobles were broadcasting the opposite side of it.  Wardens bad, Loghain good.  And what do the commoners know from this?  That the noble squabbling gets them higher taxes, conscripted, and might bring war upon their land.

And keep in mind, Loghain is THE hero of the country.  There is nobody bigger.  Big enough that no matter what, a decent chunk of people won't believe most of the bad stuff about him.  Especially the common folk, as he's one of them, while your warden is an outsider: elf, dwarf, noble, mage...no human commoner there.  And while you have the Grey Warden tag to your name, you are not the Savior of the Country (yet).  Loghain is.  By having Loghain join, you help merge the two sides, remove that issue.

Now, will he betray the cause again?  That is something you need to decide.

My character's belief was that, within him, Loghain still had the hero of the country.  That Loghain still had honor within him, even if he let his hatred blind him for a while.  He had enough honor to go for the 1 on 1 duel.  And, by this point, the Blight was clearly the biggest threat and Loghain had finally realized that.  So I wanted stripped from his political position, under my thum,b until the Blight was dealt with, so I could use him.  If he'd survived that, would probably have sent him off to the Dark Roads.

Now, if your character doesn't consider him that way, then, yes, by all means execute him.  Or if your character values Alistair and wants to keep him around, give him his vengeance.  If your own character has such hatred that he can't work with Loghain, again, chop chop.

There are definite reasons to keep Logain around.  For military knowledge, for morale, for showing a unified front.  And there are reasons to execute him.  For betrayal, for endangering the country to pursue a personal vendetta.  And so on. 

Either choice has good reasons behind it.  Which is what makes fun.  There are reasons to go either way.

Taht's not how it works in real life either..unfortunately.

Yup, I fully understand why Alistair left, and how betrayed he must have felt.  That said, my character felt the political and military ramifactions of making Loghain a warden were worthwhile for the cause, greater than vengeance.

Modifié par Axterix, 26 novembre 2009 - 09:29 .

[Axterix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are more than enough people who would jump at hte opportunity. If you read the lore and some conversatiosn with Allistair, it shows that becoming a grey warden is considered a honor - turnaments are organized to find hte best warriors.

But Duncan is picky. He only takes those who want to be wardens and fill some strange criteria of his (being a uber-badass warrir is apparently NOT one of those).

Keep in mind that there's a limited supply of Warden making components.  Darkspawn blood isn't too hard to come by, but I believe it took some blood from the last archdemon or something?  Whatever got stolen from the safe.

It isn't as simple as mass produce wardens. 

That's why Duncan sets out to find people with certain traits that he feels will make them ideal Grey Wardens.

[Akka le Vil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Nah, here I don't argue for Loghain. i just provide a reason that it is not outlandish that Duncan would forcefully conscript people if they had the status that is needed.
Bugs me that he is seen as a saint, must be the beard...

He isn't considered a saint. But he's respected as being actually a "true" Grey Warden, someone who can be ruthless but ONLY WHEN ABSOLUTELY NEEDED (I will grany you the "Jory's case", that felt just awkward).
The problem with Loghain and most explanation trying to justify him, is about he was NEEDLESSLY ruthless ; not just "needless from our point of view, but if you see it through his eyes it was", but needlessly in that it was not efficient, even for his own agenda.
Most of my posts in this thread are about that : being ruthless isn't efficient nor "what needs to be done" by itself. Ruthless is something Grey Warden are but ONLY when there is NO OTHER CHOICE.

And Loghain has the necessary status to get away with it, 'til those pesky wardens with help from swamp witches foiled his plan. Without you,  Loghain would have had his way.

Actually, without me Loghain is locked in a civil war with the Blight ravaging the country. The PC isn't going directly against Loghain until soon before the Landsmeet. Until then, he only go get recruit allies.
The PC is the one breaking the deadlock and uniting the country that Loghain alone has divided and let ravaged.

[Lotion Soronarr]

No. Loghain lost the trust of half of the country allready. He lied to many of the nobles who did support him. There were lies circulating, but there was also the truth circulating.



When you expose him during hte Landmeet, the truth starts gushing forh. You can see he's loosing support and trust even from many nobles that were on his side. Sparing him won't unite the country.



He is guilty. Punishment is death. That is the law. Period.



Loghain was allready on a slippery slope. People liked Cailan. And do you even for a moment think that all the people (some of them nobles) who lost their family members to Loghains manipulations will just go along with it? They will demand justice.

Loghain did so much crap he couldn't keep it hidden despite all of his effort.

[orpheus333]

At the end of the day they were running out of space on the party screen...who do you think was going to go? Dog?

[Axterix]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Actually, without me Loghain is locked in a civil war with the Blight ravaging the country. The PC isn't going directly against Loghain until soon before the Landsmeet. Until then, he only go get recruit allies.
The PC is the one breaking the deadlock and uniting the country that Loghain alone has divided and let ravaged.

Well, we don't get a full feeling of the civil war.  But from what I saw, Loghain was winning.

There is some fighting, for sure.  Without Warden interference, that one fight would have been won by Loghain's troops.  A couple of houses opposing Loghain are being dealt with, their leaders imprisoned or else heirs held as hostage.  And the main guy with enough clout to rally the various houses, to really kick off a civil war?  He's in a poison+demon coma and his lands are being ravaged by undead, his knights running around looking for the Urn.

Added to that, one thing that has to hurt Loghain's position is stories of a couple of wardens running around, foiling his plans, trying to rally people against the Blight, and naysaying the official story.  Without you and Alistair, not only would any resistance have been less effective, there'd have been less of it.

And even with all that, the only way you managed to swing the Landsmeet against Loghain is by finding the Urn, busting people out of prison, digging up evidence that would have stayed hidden otherwise, and so on.

I'd say it is pretty accurate that without the meddling kids to rally people, for people to rally around, with the threat of the Blight, people probably would have fallen in line behind Loghain, at least until the Blight was dealt with.

Which, of course, it wouldn't be, since they lack the means to kill the Archdemon and Loghain's position would have been considerably weaker.  No non-human allies, no Redcliffe troops, who knows what the Circle would do.  But that's another matter.

[FlintlockJazz]

andyr1986 wrote...

At the end of the day they were running out of space on the party screen...who do you think was going to go? Dog?

Could get out a file and sand down Shale a bit more, I'm sure it won't miss a few more inches in order to make room for more characters...

[Herr Uhl]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Nah, here I don't argue for Loghain. i just provide a reason that it is not outlandish that Duncan would forcefully conscript people if they had the status that is needed.
Bugs me that he is seen as a saint, must be the beard...

He isn't considered a saint. But he's respected as being actually a "true" Grey Warden, someone who can be ruthless but ONLY WHEN ABSOLUTELY NEEDED (I will grany you the "Jory's case", that felt just awkward).
The problem with Loghain and most explanation trying to justify him, is about he was NEEDLESSLY ruthless ; not just "needless from our point of view, but if you see it through his eyes it was", but needlessly in that it was not efficient, even for his own agenda.
Most of my posts in this thread are about that : being ruthless isn't efficient nor "what needs to be done" by itself. Ruthless is something Grey Warden are but ONLY when there is NO OTHER CHOICE.

And Loghain has the necessary status to get away with it, 'til those pesky wardens with help from swamp witches foiled his plan. Without you,  Loghain would have had his way.

Actually, without me Loghain is locked in a civil war with the Blight ravaging the country. The PC isn't going directly against Loghain until soon before the Landsmeet. Until then, he only go get recruit allies.
The PC is the one breaking the deadlock and uniting the country that Loghain alone has divided and let ravaged.

I got the feeling that Loghain was winning the civil war until you started to interfere, from the gossip/rumors.

Arl Eamon would be dead, Bann Teagan would be the monkey entertaining a desire demon (or dead), Anora would have been kept in check and Howe would not get exposed.

And I still hold Loghain as a bastard. But a bastard that could be of use. Kind of like Bhelen.

[Axterix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No. Loghain lost the trust of half of the country allready. He lied to many of the nobles who did support him. There were lies circulating, but there was also the truth circulating.

Of the nobles, you get no real feel of the commoners.

When you expose him during hte Landmeet, the truth starts gushing forh. You can see he's loosing support and trust even from many nobles that were on his side. Sparing him won't unite the country.

But there's still a decent chunk that stand with him.

He is guilty. Punishment is death. That is the law. Period.

And what is the punishment for a casteless fighting in the arena?  For an elf who kills a noble and slaughters have the castle garrison?  For a mage who helps an escape attempt from the tower, possibly stealing some items from the vault as well?

Loghain was allready on a slippery slope. People liked Cailan. And do you even for a moment think that all the people (some of them nobles) who lost their family members to Loghains manipulations will just go along with it? They will demand justice.
Loghain did so much crap he couldn't keep it hidden despite all of his effort.

And what of people who were saved by Loghain during the revolution?  Ones who owe their power to him.  The ones who supported him anyway, that he didn't need to mess with?  What about all the commoners, who might gossip about what nobles are up to, but really don't care too much, but might well object to a noble plot to tear one of their own down, the great hero?

While becoming a Grey Warden is to some degree an honor, it is also an end to what you were.  And nobles, in the face of the Blight, would be willing to let Loghain go Warden.  He might well die in the fight.  And if he doesn't, well, he can be exiled, executed, or assassinated afterwards.

[Herr Uhl]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
He doesn't do that cause he doesn't want somebody like Loghain kicking them out of the country.

If he starts conscripting people everywhere some might take offence at their husbands/wives/sons/daughters/moms/dads deaths.

There are more than enough people who would jump at hte opportunity. If you read the lore and some conversatiosn with Allistair, it shows that becoming a grey warden is considered a honor - turnaments are organized to find hte best warriors.

But Duncan is picky. He only takes those who want to be wardens and fill some strange criteria of his (being a uber-badass warrir is apparently NOT one of those).

Yes, if über badass warrior was the requirement there would be a lot more lex Jory cases, thus more antagonism towards wardens.

[Akka le Vil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I got the feeling that Loghain was winning the civil war until you started to interfere, from the gossip/rumors.

Arl Eamon would be dead, Bann Teagan would be the monkey entertaining a desire demon (or dead), Anora would have been kept in check and Howe would not get exposed.

And I still hold Loghain as a bastard. But a bastard that could be of use. Kind of like Bhelen.

He's winning the civil war, yes, but that doesn't mean the country isn't divided, just that he's crushing the opposition.
And he's winning, but barely. The entire slavery thing is because he's broke, hardly the situation someone easily winning would be in.
And there wouldn't be any civil war if he was still trusted in the first place.
And after the Landsmeet exposed his evil, he's even less support than before.

No, Loghain wasn't efficient at all, and sparing him should cause quite a bit of unrest, realistically.

[Herr Uhl]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I got the feeling that Loghain was winning the civil war until you started to interfere, from the gossip/rumors.

Arl Eamon would be dead, Bann Teagan would be the monkey entertaining a desire demon (or dead), Anora would have been kept in check and Howe would not get exposed.

And I still hold Loghain as a bastard. But a bastard that could be of use. Kind of like Bhelen.

He's winning the civil war, yes, but that doesn't mean the country isn't divided, just that he's crushing the opposition.
And he's winning, but barely. The entire slavery thing is because he's broke, hardly the situation someone easily winning would be in.
And there wouldn't be any civil war if he was still trusted in the first place.
And after the Landsmeet exposed his evil, he's even less support than before.

No, Loghain wasn't efficient at all, and sparing him should cause quite a bit of unrest, realistically.

I don't recall saying that he is efficient, why do you always see everything as praise to him.

If it weren't for you, he would have won. Efficiency be damned. And then they would have been obliterated by the blight since the Dhalish and Dwarves wouldn't care, and Uldred would have raised another big problem.

[Axterix]

Akka le Vil wrote...

And he's winning, but barely. The entire slavery thing is because he's broke, hardly the situation someone easily winning would be in.

Nah, that doesn't have to do with him winning barely or not.  The reason he needs the money is to expand the military so he can guard the borders against the Orlesians and be able to deal with the Darkspawn.  Obviously part of that will entail making up for troops lost in the battle and during skirmishes related to the civil war.  But mostly, he's trying to grow the army.

Overall, I think fighting was pretty limited.  That is what made it possible to call the Landsmeet and have plenty of people show up.

And there wouldn't be any civil war if he was still trusted in the first place.

But do poorly at the landsmeet, fail to provide evidence and such, and see how much support you have against him.  Most of the major houses were for him, either because they trusted him or because he's got something on them.

And after the Landsmeet exposed his evil, he's even less support than before.

No, Loghain wasn't efficient at all, and sparing him should cause quite a bit of unrest, realistically.

After the landsmeet, he no longer had the majority, if you did enough, picked the right options.  In my case though, he still had a bunch of allies.  Not a majority, but a sizable minority.

By sparing him, those that remained with him fell solidly into my camp.

And, of course, that's just the noble houses, many of whom play power games even at the worst times.  It says nothing about the commoners, who still hold Loghain to be a hero.

So, no, I'd disagree.  Sparing him prevents unrest.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Axterix wrote...
Well, we don't get a full feeling of the civil war.  But from what I saw, Loghain was winning.

He was? Sauce or it didn't happen.

Not once did I get the impression Loghain was actually doing so well. And if hte "master tactician" was locked in the conflict with the "rebels", then the rebellion must be bigger then what it seems. After all, the only way to counter a tactical advantage wihtout a master tactician on your own is numbers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Axterix wrote...
And what is the punishment for a casteless fighting in the arena?  For an elf who kills a noble and slaughters have the castle garrison?  For a mage who helps an escape attempt from the tower, possibly stealing some items from the vault as well?

City elf origin - self defense/rescue attempt.
As a MageI haven't stolen anything nor help the blood mage escape.

Any cimes a PC might commit in the begining are meaningless compared to what Loghain is doing anyway. Not to mentio nthat the law is right in Loghain's case. He really is very, very guilty.
Note that the game gives you no option of NOT escaping the punishment.

[Taerda]

Loghain had no votes in the Landsmeet - no support whatsoever (at least on my second playthru) .. he may have had the support of most of the common man, but as Eamon said: win the city and all else will follow.



Loghain (and in my opinion) his daughter were too dangerous to let live but the best the writers will allow is to have her "put in a tower" ...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Axterix wrote...
After the landsmeet, he no longer had the majority, if you did enough, picked the right options.  In my case though, he still had a bunch of allies.  Not a majority, but a sizable minority.

By sparing him, those that remained with him fell solidly into my camp.

So, no, I'd disagree.  Sparing him prevents unrest.

Interestingly how you avoid the majority.

So sparing him would stop the minority of causing unrests, but the majority that opposes him will magicly do nothing? Yeah, let's go appeasing the minority by pissing off the majority. taht will SURELY stop all the unrest! 

You fail logic. Forever.

[th3warr1or]

velmyn wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

So your character was supposed to be "good", but let a criminal escape justice and betray and execute one of his friend ?
Woah, I don't even want to think what you call "evil" :x

Don't you know? Letting criminals off the hook and then screwing over the good guys for getting pissed off about it is the staple of justice in Dragon Age.

I'm pretty sure Hitler would be the saint among saints in DA:O

/end sarcasm.

Hilter would be forgiven if he suddenly had a change of heart, and let all the remaining Jews out, used whatever money he plundered to build them homes and give them jobs again, then sacrified himself to get near the Emperor of Japan and assasinated him(hence sacrificing his life too).

He didn't. He wussed out after losing and unable to face punishment(which Loghain chose to take like a man mind you) and commited suicide.

[th3warr1or]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Axterix wrote...
Well, we don't get a full feeling of the civil war.  But from what I saw, Loghain was winning.

He was? Sauce or it didn't happen.

Not once did I get the impression Loghain was actually doing so well. And if hte "master tactician" was locked in the conflict with the "rebels", then the rebellion must be bigger then what it seems. After all, the only way to counter a tactical advantage wihtout a master tactician on your own is numbers.

Yes, he was outnumbered by the Bannorn(both the location AND the collection of Banns). Hence Teagan says "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it." and walks off.

[th3warr1or]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But Duncan is picky. He only takes those who want to be wardens and fill some strange criteria of his (being a uber-badass warrir is apparently NOT one of those).

How do you know? What do you mean..

[th3warr1or]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But Duncan is picky. He only takes those who want to be wardens and fill some strange criteria of his (being a uber-badass warrir is apparently NOT one of those).

How do you know? What do you mean..

[tmp7704]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

He was? Sauce or it didn't happen.

Not once did I get the impression Loghain was actually doing so well.

From the gossips you can hear around the world before the Landsmeet it appears there was few skirmishes and/or battles which Loghain's forces won, sometimes despite being outnumbered. Credit where it's due, if it wasn't for PC actions he'd likely get at least majority of the country under his heel by the time Landsmeet ended, if there even happened one at all.

[cooldevo]

NarcissaArtois wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

We don't know many things at that stage, indeed. But i really don't get this obsession with wanting to get Loghain on board no matter what and come hell and high water. He is just one guy with spotty track record. There's probably a dozen of better candidates for Grey Warden that could be conscripted instead of him in the Landsmeet building alone at that point, nevermind the whole Denerim.

I agree. 'Course, I didn't like him from the beginning...he just seemed off. And even though I did get a lil bit of a soft spot for the way he talked to Anora at the end...he is the one responsible there only being two grey wardens in the first place, never mind killing the king, poisoning the Arl, etc.

The obsession is not to get Loghain come hell or high water.  The "obsession" in three of my playthroughs is to be a "TRUE" Grey Warden.  Not good or eveil, but look at it from the perspective of a Warden, and follow recruitng in the way Duncan did.  One of my chars was a murderer (city elf), one was deemed a traitor by Howe (human noble), one was condemed to die in the Deep Roads as a murderer (dwarf noble).  Duncan looked past that (whether it was true or not he didn't seem to care) and saw my potential and still brought me under his wing.  Regardless of my past mistakes or choices.  That is what Grey Wardens do.  They look only to the future and the Blight.

Alistair had a "spotty track record" for further proof of what I'm saying in addition to my PC's spotty record.  They find the best of the best and "curse" them with being a Grey Warden to serve.  It's not an honor or a privilege to be a Warden.  I don't get where everyone gets that from.  Read the Codex and any other information from the wikis.  You are doomed to a life of sacrifice and likely a short life.

[Count Viceroy]

tmp7704 wrote...



 Credit where it's due, if it wasn't for PC actions he'd likely get at least majority of the country under his heel by the time Landsmeet ended, if there even happened one at all.

WIthout us rescuing Arl Eamon any idea of a landsmeet is flung out of the window.