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[taffetta]

For me Loghain has long crossed the line between taking tough choices for the greater good and just downright self-serving evil. He no longer questions his own actions, will kill who or what is necessary to further his own ends with no concern for the consequences of such acts. The Ferelden he would create in the process of 'saving' it is not worth saving in my opinion.



Alistair however I think acts mostly on simple revenge for Duncan. As I carried the Highever sword and shield with me until I had a chance to use them on Arl Howe I can understand that (locked the rest of the party round the corner and hacked the bastard to death slowly).



I actually never knew there was an option to recruit Loghain as I always had Alastair fight him and he just chops Loghains head off after you exchange a quick nod with him. But had I known I think I would have asked myself if I would have let Arl Howe join the Grey Wardens and the answer would have been 'over my dead body' especially as at that point you are not aware of the sacrifice necessary to kill the archdemon.

[Akka le Vil]

cooldevo wrote...

The obsession is not to get Loghain come hell or high water.  The "obsession" in three of my playthroughs is to be a "TRUE" Grey Warden.  Not good or eveil, but look at it from the perspective of a Warden, and follow recruitng in the way Duncan did.  One of my chars was a murderer (city elf), one was deemed a traitor by Howe (human noble), one was condemed to die in the Deep Roads as a murderer (dwarf noble).  Duncan looked past that (whether it was true or not he didn't seem to care) and saw my potential and still brought me under his wing.  Regardless of my past mistakes or choices.  That is what Grey Wardens do.  They look only to the future and the Blight.

And the future looks best served keeping someone who has proven he's willing to fight the Blight (Alistair) than recruiting someone who actually helped the Blight in battle (Loghain).

[cooldevo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

He could? How do you KNOW that? You don't. Duncan looked for something ELSE in the Grey Wardens, not pure fighting potential.

How could you KNOW what he assesses?  They are looking only to kill Darkspawn and archdemons.  What other skills matter?

Wrong on both accounts. The Grey Wardens won't do EVERYTHING. Take a look at Duncan. Didn't he constatnly try to remain politicly neutral (in all hte origin stories). He has the Right of Conscription, yet he doesn't use it left and right with abbado. Surely having 100 new grey warden would be beneficial, right? So why doesn't he do that. Because Grey Wardens empahises SELF-sacrifice.  Which is basicly hte gist of sacrifice - not sacrificing others, but oneself.
Loghain is a big liabiltiy, not worthy of being a Grey Warden and not necessary. You could kill him a billion times and not come even clsoe to breaking your oath.
By no logical train of though can one come to the conclusion that turning Loghain i na gW is a GW's duty, and not doing it is brekaing ones oath. That is simply redicolous.

Politically neutral because it didn't help the Grey Wardens unite the armies if they had enemies.  That's all.  In your opinion he is not necessary, in mine, within the confines of the games limitations he is the only option to recruit.  Duncan even says to Alistair in Ostagar not to rile up the mages because they need to keep everyone united not divided.  Not because he is netural for neutral sake, but because it causes problem fighting the Blight.

100 new grey wardens would mean nothing as who is recruiting them?  training them?  preparing them?  PC and Alistair don't have time to stop for training purposes.  You don't even know how to prepare a joining to start with, and it turns out that you can't until Riordan helps out with Loghain.  It's not just drinking darkspawn blood after all.  And even if you were able to do the joining, how long would it take to get 100 successes with the drastically high failure rate?  And there isn't a lot of time to select the best of the best.  Most of them die in the joining, so if you picked 100 commoners with no combat skills at all, or even soldiers how many would be strong enough to survive?

Are you blind? You have to be to talk smack like this.

I'm not the one who posed that question worded that way first, you asked where I got it from, so I answered and then posed the same question back.   So who's the real smack talker?

Loghain was a hero to the common person.  Only place outside of the core players was the Mage circle that knew of the treachery, and that was just because Wynne survive and came back to the circle.  No one else seems to know or care.  To them he is the resucer of Fereldan.

3 wardens are better than 2, but why Loghain? You got a whole city filled with potential candidates. You got both Elves and dwarves in tow to boot.
Killing Loghain is not ingoring ones duty. It's the exact opposite.

Well show me the conversation or option I missed that let me recruit anyone else then.  Well?  I didn't think there was one.  I can recruit Lelianna, Zervan, Shale, Sten, or anyone else from the party.  Maybe they would be better.... if they survived but it wasn't a choice.  You can't make up something that doesn't work within the games context and pose it as an option.  I had an option of 3 Grey Wardens or 2.  3 is better than 2.  Just like saying there are other generals and tacticians doesn't work either, because there is no option to recruit them.  You have to take what the game gives you, speculation about what could have happened does nothing.

The man killed many and crossed many. The civil war is proof enough that half the coutrny wants him gone. Many of them are nobles. You practicly expose his deeds on the Landsmeet, turnign even more people away from him. He betrayed their trust, their laws, theri king. According to their laws, he is guily and the punishment is death.
By sparing him, you are spitting in the face of Ferelden law, justice and on the corpses of all he killed. This is not a good way to remain politicly neutral.

I saw a lot of "civil war" talk amongst the nobles, but never did I get any indication that a full war had broken out yet with soldiers.  Or did I miss something?  Nobles talking is a lot different than putting it into action.  There was one quest to ambush Loghains men from a Chanter board, but that was just a small skirmish and not a full war.  Which is the closest I've seen that implies any in-fighting in Fereldan.

*Edit:  Added a sentence about the politically neutral point about Duncan/Alistair talk in Ostagar*

Modifié par cooldevo, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:34 .

[cooldevo]

Akka le Vil wrote...

And the future looks best served keeping someone who has proven he's willing to fight the Blight (Alistair) than recruiting someone who actually helped the Blight in battle (Loghain).

Loghain's intentions were to not fight the Blight?  He, along with many other didn't think it was a Blight because there was no archdemon seen.  Until you get closer to the end and everyone finally realizes that it is.  He wasn't going to just roll over, after he completed his plan and let the Darkspawn destroy everything would he?  If that was the case why did he take power just to let his kingdom be destroyed.  Then what does he rule?  Doesn't make too much sense.  I'd say Loghain had every intention of stopping the Darkspawn, just at a later time.

[tmp7704]

cooldevo wrote...

The obsession is not to get Loghain come hell or high water.  The "obsession" in three of my playthroughs is to be a "TRUE" Grey Warden.  Not good or eveil, but look at it from the perspective of a Warden, and follow recruitng in the way Duncan did.  One of my chars was a murderer (city elf), one was deemed a traitor by Howe (human noble), one was condemed to die in the Deep Roads as a murderer (dwarf noble).  Duncan looked past that (whether it was true or not he didn't seem to care) and saw my potential and still brought me under his wing.

Except Duncan recruited people who if anything could be considered 'victors' in the sense they've managed to survive and beat enemies against the odds. Loghain on the other hand had his behind handed to him by your squad not once but twice in short order and right before the option of choosing him pops up. So for all your character knows, when push comes to shove this "war hero" is simply not as good as your guys are, and he yields rather than fights to the death to boot. Why would "true Grey Warden" want to enlist a weakling like that?

[cooldevo]

tmp7704 wrote...

Except Duncan recruited people who if anything could be considered 'victors' in the sense they've managed to survive and beat enemies against the odds. Loghain on the other hand had his behind handed to him by your squad not once but twice in short order and right before the option of choosing him pops up. So for all your character knows, when push comes to shove this "war hero" is simply not as good as your guys are, and he yields rather than fights to the death to boot. Why would "true Grey Warden" want to enlist a weakling like that?

Depending on what origin you had picked you were exiled to death, facing execution for murder, or one of many other scenarios from the origins.  How is that different?  You were beat by the dwarves when you were sent out to the Deep Roads for exile and certain death (at least in their eyes).  If you were city elf, you were about to be handed over to the guard for execution with no way to fight out of it within the constraints of the game.  Were you not beaten in just these two origin events alone?  As a human noble you fled leaving your family to die, and Duncan only promised to rescue you if you were to become a Grey Warden.  Not only was your father dying, but Duncan sticks the screws to him when he has no other choice to force him to allow you to join.  Not only is that a cruel thing to do to a dying mother and father, but it implies Duncan would have left you had he not relented.  In an indirect way you were beaten there too.

And what about when you were defeated by the Darkspawn in the tower?  In my video clips I took one measly arrow and went down.  If Flemeth hadn't rescued me, the story would be over.  She saved me from my defeat.  Too bad Duncan wasn't around to see me defeated like that or he may have regretted picking me if he only wants victors.

Modifié par cooldevo, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:59 .

[tmp7704]

How does any of that make Loghain any better candidate and less of a loser? He doesn't get beat up by superior numbers of opponents while barely armed, he is not *forced* to flee by his elders etc. He fights you in conditions which are considered fair and square by people involved and when he thinks he cannot go on, he just surrenders. Again, why would the "true Grey Warden" want such a recruit?

[cooldevo]

He has to lose to you. That's the point. If you lose to him you would die and so would all your party. Then game over. Game constraints have to be taken into account. And it's not just his combat skills but his lifetime of knowledge. Leading an army. Overall his skills make him far more valuable than the skills Alistair can bring to the table. Which in most cases is just the ability to tank. Which serves it's own purpose.



It's also the same reason you can defeat the archdemon with only two Grey Wardens. It's a constraint of the story. You can't recruit hundreds of new Wardens, and you have to take what you are given. My first playthrough was a human noble and I was able to put aside my hatred of the guy and see that some of his skills would be very useful to have in my party. I'm out to end the Blight. Other than both of their pasts (with are both dubious to different levels) they both bring skills that would be incredibly valuable as Wardens. As the noble, my house was deemed a traitor and Duncan didn't seem to care all he wanted was someone to join him as a Warden. Turned out to be me. I don't know whether Duncan knew the actual truth or not, and frankly I don't care. As a dwarf noble he doesn't seem to care if you did actually kill your brother or not. Past means nothing, just that you have the skill and ability he is looking for. He doesn't hold a grudge against the Fereldans for running the Wardens out of the country, of which I'm sure man Wardens were killed in the process. Yes it likely wasn't in his lifetime, but he could still have been bitter about it. And possibly rightly so. But he gets beyond and focuses on his true calling. Riordan doesn't hold a grudge against Howe or Loghain because he sees the possible use Loghain will serve. And he was tortured by them only hours/days prior. If I was in Riordan's shoes I'd want Loghain dead for that as well. But it's not about revenge or getting back. It starts and stops with the Blight.

[tmp7704]

cooldevo wrote...

He has to lose to you. That's the point. If you lose to him you would die and so would all your party. Then game over. Game constraints have to be taken into account.

But this is out-of-game justification for in-game choice. Your character has no knowledge there is a script running and directing everyone's behaviour and odds. As far as they're concerned they bested Loghain and that's it. And they should act on that knowledge alone, not some meta-gaming.

Not to mention the game does make it possible for your character to suffer defeat and continue anyway, and utilizes it at least twice. So it's not like the writing is limited to having your character win at every turn. If you think of it, having your character invoke the Right of Conscript as a way to circumvent Loghain if he actually won, that'd make quite a bit more sense from the "dedicated Warden" perspective, at least. Would make much more hillarious political cluster**** on the other hand, obviously

[cooldevo]

tmp7704 wrote...

Not to mention the game does make it possible for your character to suffer defeat and continue anyway, and utilizes it at least twice. So it's not like the writing is limited to having your character win at every turn. If you think of it, having your character invoke the Right of Conscript as a way to circumvent Loghain if he actually won, that'd make quite a bit more sense from the "dedicated Warden" perspective, at least. Would make much more hillarious political cluster**** on the other hand, obviously

Now that would have been a fun option, although I think that would have left him still thinking he was right and possibly back-stab you to take the glory for himself.  Which would have been another interesting plot twist.  Just like when I defiled the ashes with Alistair, Lelianna, and Wynne in my group.  Everyone but Alistair turned on me on top of the guardian and the shade-things.  Made the battle a lot harder 5 vs 2.

But that is partly my point.  You are allowed to be defeated several times and continue in-game as a Grey Warden, and yet it make Loghain a bad choice for one because he loses to you?  I'm not saying Loghain is the be-all-and-end-all choice and that everyone has to agree with me, just that it bodes well in-game to have more Wardens available (3>2), and with the skills and knowledge he has it makes him a good candidate.  Regardless of past choices, which Duncan also overlooks in Alistair and myself.  Not even taking into account the rest of your party: apostates, assassins, Orlesians, and murders.  He was willing to undergo the joining.  He has an idea of what Grey Wardens do, that in battling Darkspawn.  If he really thought Wardens were that bad and evil would not a good soldier choose death over becoming what they hate?  I thnk it goes a bit further where he realizes that Wardens are in fact out to save the Fereldan and are not in league with the Orlesians.

He gives up his claim to the throne by doing such, just as Alistair should not be allowed to take the throne because Wardens are not supposed to hold rank or title.  He knew what he was giving up to do it, so I would hazard a guess that he actually did come around at least a bit.  Grey Wardens are the servants of the people always battling the darkspawn on their behalf, using whatever and whomever they can find to help them.  Even to their last if they live long enough for the taint to overtake them they go to the Deep Roads to kill as many as they can before they fall.

Part of the beauty of this game is that it leaves a lot of things to supposition and guessing.  It allows for grey areas, not just good and bad.  It answers some, leaves other with holes so wide you could drive a semi through them.  It's not a neat and tidy game, and doesn't end that way, which keeps it all consistent.  Do I agree with what Loghain did?  Not a chance.  Does he have the knowledge and skills in the game world?  Absolutely.  Did he willingly perform the joining?  In my playthroughs yes.  Does he agree to the Warden oath?  Seemingly so.  Is he subjected to the curse of the taint?  Absolutely.  Irregardless of past choices, he makes several good decisions at that point that, as a Grey Warden, mean he has what it takes.  And regardless of what anyone says, the game world/lore shows Loghain has all the skills and talent to make him the best of the best.  Which is what the Gery Wardens are all about.

[Akka le Vil]

cooldevo wrote...

Loghain's intentions were to not fight the Blight?  He, along with many other didn't think it was a Blight because there was no archdemon seen.

So he considered tactically sound to lose half of his army and starts a civil war before even trying to beat back the darkspawns.
I don't need to replace an actual effective Grey Warden who take the Darkspawns seriously by a guy who take them so lightly and combine inefficiency with immorality. Grey Warden doesn't perhaps look especially for morality in their ranks, but it's always better to have someone trustworthy and sharing your goal when you fight an enemy for your life, rather than a proven traitor and backstabber who already sold you out to these same enemies.

Until you get closer to the end and everyone finally realizes that it is.  He wasn't going to just roll over, after he completed his plan and let the Darkspawn destroy everything would he?  If that was the case why did he take power just to let his kingdom be destroyed. Then what does he rule?  Doesn't make too much sense.

No it doesn't make sense, but that's what his actions actually did. His actions were already not justifiable, even despite his supposed claim "it is for the greater good", but on top of that they weren't even effective.
It MAY be beneficial to recruit an evil man into the Warden if he's actually competent. Recruit an idiot that just destroy his own chances of victory ? No thanks.

I'd say Loghain had every intention of stopping the Darkspawn, just at a later time.

And such an idiotic decision makes him a liability, hence why bother to save him (and lose someone who can actually improve the situation) from a fate he completely deserve ?

[Akka le Vil]

cooldevo wrote...

Depending on what origin you had picked you were exiled to death, facing execution for murder, or one of many other scenarios from the origins.  How is that different?

You lose when you start with nothing and facing by entire society.
He loses when being a king in all but name and against a band of less than ten people.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 26 novembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

cooldevo wrote...
How could you KNOW what he assesses?  They are looking only to kill Darkspawn and archdemons.  What other skills matter?

Well, in the background material you learn that some candidates were tougher, faster or stonger than Allistar - they've beaten him in the tournament organized for Duncan. They were all better warriors than Allistair. Yet Duncan chose him. It's obvious he's looking from something more than jsut pure warrior skills.

Politically neutral because it didn't help the Grey Wardens unite the armies if they had enemies.  That's all.  In your opinion he is not necessary, in mine, within the confines of the games limitations he is the only option to recruit.  Duncan even says to Alistair in Ostagar not to rile up the mages because they need to keep everyone united not divided.  Not because he is netural for neutral sake, but because it causes problem fighting the Blight.

100 new grey wardens would mean nothing as who is recruiting them?  training them?  preparing them?  PC and Alistair don't have time to stop for training purposes.  You don't even know how to prepare a joining to start with, and it turns out that you can't until Riordan helps out with Loghain.  It's not just drinking darkspawn blood after all.  And even if you were able to do the joining, how long would it take to get 100 successes with the drastically high failure rate?  And there isn't a lot of time to select the best of the best.  Most of them die in the joining, so if you picked 100 commoners with no combat skills at all, or even soldiers how many would be strong enough to survive?

Pfft..Like oyu have any guarantee Loghain would surive or that he is a better candidate than some knight?
The Wardens stay politicly neutral because they dont' want to cause an uproar. Guess what - in any realistic universe, if you spared Loghain you woudl cause a very big uproar.

EDIT: To anyone who sez making Loghain a GW is not an honor - you're blind and ignorant. Take a look at how the elves, dwarve,s Jory, Daveth, Allistair and practicly everyone else looks at hte grey wardens - they all look at them with respect and consider joning them a big honor. Pretty muhc the whole world of Thedas is telling you you're wrong in your face.

Loghain was a hero to the common person.  Only place outside of the core players was the Mage circle that knew of the treachery, and that was just because Wynne survive and came back to the circle.  No one else seems to know or care.  To them he is the resucer of Fereldan.

Incorrect. Given the cutscene and the civil war bit, it's clear than more than enough people don't trust him and suspect him of foul play. And most of the common folk don't really care.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The player and Loghain cannot be compared.



The dwarf noble was framed, the city elf was justified in his actions (acting in defense), the dwarf commoner was only trying to save his life, nothnig more, the dalish elf did nothing and the mage helped a friend for whom he didn't know it was a blood mage.



you and Allistair are the only Grey Wardens b.t.w. - no one else in the party has undergone the Joining.



So I ask you - where are all those murderes in the Grey Wardens you were talking about? Nowhere.

[cooldevo]

So he considered tactically sound to lose half of his army and starts a civil war before even trying to beat back the darkspawns.  I don't need to replace an actual effective Grey Warden who take the Darkspawns seriously by a guy who take them so lightly and combine inefficiency with immorality. Grey Warden doesn't perhaps look especially for morality in their ranks, but it's always better to have someone trustworthy and sharing your goal when you fight an enemy for your life, rather than a proven traitor and backstabber who already sold you out to these same enemies.

Alistair is effective?  I wouldn't say he's effective at much of anything really.  Other than holding a tank.  He shows no leadership at all and is focused only on revenge.  How's that effective?  He's consumed with something other than the Blight, which is not his duty.  His duty requires better of him, and he comes up lacking.  And yes, Loghain has much better skills as a General than Alistair has.  What does Alistair really have?  Other than a few templar skills and a public desire to just follow anyone who will lead.  Up until that one moment in the Landsmeet that is.

I don't understand why people think I belive Loghain is required.  He isn't, just like Alistair isn't.  They both make screw-up decisions in the game.  Sure to different scales, but in Loghain's eyes he is upholding his oath to protect Fereldan.  Alistair has no qualms about ignoring his.  As a leader Loghain made his choice and stands by it.  When proven wrong he seemingly realizes the error of his ways, at least he did in my playthroughs.  Alistair never does.  It takes a lot more to admit one is wrong and make recompense for it than it does to be stubborn headed during and after a decision.  No one in the game is perfect, or a saint, everyone has their checkered past.  That's why it's neither right nor wrong to decide one way or the other.

No it doesn't make sense, but that's what his actions actually did. His actions were already not justifiable, even despite his supposed claim "it is for the greater good", but on top of that they weren't even effective.
It MAY be beneficial to recruit an evil man into the Warden if he's actually competent. Recruit an idiot that just destroy his own chances of victory ? No thanks.

To you (and others) they were not justifiable.  But no one else is in his shoes.  No PC saw the things he did when Orlais ruled Fereldan.  I have my sepculations that it must have been horrible due to his intense hatred of anything Orlesian.  Loghain's hatred for the Orlesian's and what they did is no worse than the intense hatred Alistair has towards Loghain.  They were both willing to do anything to see their end through.  It consumed them both.  That's really the only point I've been trying to make.  Different scales, but the same base principle.  They allowed their intense hatred to consume them and take over the common sense and judgement.

Some people, as is true even in real life, have to reach rock bottom before they realize they were wrong.  To me that explains Loghain.  It took him being beaten by a Grey Warden to hit rock bottom.  Does that justify what he did?  No.  Does that mean he is a completely lost cause with no chance of learning and moving on?  No.  He willingly becomes something he hated, which to me is the start of recompense.  That he is now a servant of the people he screwed over by taking the oath.  Had he refused to take part in the joining I probably would have dropped him then and there as he wouldn't have seen what he did as a mistake.  Because he did agree to it, I saw a glimmer of hope, and one heck of a good potential recruit.

And such an idiotic decision makes him a liability, hence why bother to save him (and lose someone who can actually improve the situation) from a fate he completely deserve ?

He didn't see them as a serious threat and most of Fereldan didn't either.  His reaction echoed a lot of the people in Ostagar, that it wasn't a Blight at all.  Only the Wardens knew it was a Blight because they could sense the archdemon.  True it had been hundreds of years since the last Blight, but darkspawn had been around and shown themselves in between in small skirmishes and conflicts.  Nothing really serious, and seems to be what a lot of people thought was happening there.  They had several key military battles, and seemed confidant it would be over soon.  Have not real world generals and our political leaders done the same throughout history?  Such as the appeasement of Hitler, but we don't brand them as traitors beyond redemption for making a mistake that cost thousands and thousands of lives.  Rather they redeemed themselves in the war that followed once they realized and saw what had happened.

I still have seen nothing in-game that supports how Alistair can make a good difference.  As I said before he was consumed and driven by his hatred.  That's all he was interested in.  The Blight was secondary to him.  He has no leadership ability, or even the desire to be a leader (other than to become king solely to execute Loghain).  That desire in and of itself means he doesn't take the Blight seriously enough.  Just like Loghain didn't take it seriously.  Even when Alistair takes off and Loghain is finished the joining, it seems that all of Fereldan does unite in the final battle.  I saw no indications then, or in the epilogue that civil war breaks out.  So that alone disproves the other poster saying it would cause problems.  The only note I saw about him was that he heads up recruiting for the Wardens and takes it seriously.  Anora takes the throne and is a good ruler from the looks of it too.  Nothing about problems or civil war continuing.

[cooldevo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The player and Loghain cannot be compared.

The dwarf noble was framed, the city elf was justified in his actions (acting in defense), the dwarf commoner was only trying to save his life, nothnig more, the dalish elf did nothing and the mage helped a friend for whom he didn't know it was a blood mage.

you and Allistair are the only Grey Wardens b.t.w. - no one else in the party has undergone the Joining.

So I ask you - where are all those murderes in the Grey Wardens you were talking about? Nowhere.

That is exactly what I am saying.  In your opinion it was self-defence.  In the world of Fereldan, and elf committed murder and would have been executed as a criminal.  Regardless of the circumstances.  Rightly or wrongly it was a criminal act in that time in Fereldan.  Elves were not given status as "people" just as it was when slavery was at its peak in the real world.  If a slave acted in self defence and killed his boss, he would immediately be a criminal in that culture and killed.  Doesn't matter if the slave was being beat within an inch of their life, they were still a criminal.  And almost always convicted as such.  In today standards it would be self-defence, but not in Fereldan.  And as the mage, sure you didn't know, and even if you do it at the bidding of Irving, Greagoir still doesn't seem like he really believes that story.  Which again is why Duncan recruits you... better he get you than whatever fate the templars can some up with.

And Duncan doesn't know or care if you were rightly or wrongly accused or framed.  In almost all of the origin stories he never even asks, which tells me he couldn't care less if it was or wasn't true.  He just wanted you because of your skills, abilities, and potential.

Of course you are the only two left.  That's because they get killed off.  However, who were the Wardens prior?  There were more than just two.  In fact one of your prospective recruits is a thief.  That's a good criminal right there.  If you are a city elf, you are a murderer (see my above paragraph).  If you kill the Lyrium trader as a dwarf commoner you are a murderer as well (you ended someones life prematurely).  Wardens are recruited from all walks of life based on their skills and abilities.  They recruited and used apostate mages in the past as well.  They don't stick exclusively to just the honorable, upright, and just.

[Rivie]

My particular opinion is as follows:

I can't justify what Loghain did because he did it on such a large scale, and not only that, but he allowed the king to be killed. The leader of Ferelden. Not only him but the ones who were there, with my character, to fight the darkspawn.  Loghain, among all the others, may not have thought there was a blight, but the best strategy is to hope for the best and plan for the worst.  Allowing many men AND your ruler to be killed in such a horrible way... what, there was no other option at all?  I find that very hard to believe.

It is not sound tactics to act in such a way as to throw the whole country into chaos.  My character spoke to him before the meeting, and he defended the king to my character when she called him a fool. He said that he tries to remember the king is young, and eager.  He didn't sound like someone who'd let him get killed, who'd betray his oath to him simply because, "Oh, yes, he really is an idiot. I'd do a better job. Down you go."  Which brings up how he then seemed to immediately and irrationally act out of hatred for Orlais, and go back on all of that.

I can't comment on what Orlais did, because I don't have the books and I don't know. But whatever they did, he's allowing his hatred of them to blind him to what is going on now, and what truly is best for Ferelden. It may not have been Calain (did I spell that right?), but it may well might have been.  People talk about how Alistair and Anora are a good couple to rule Ferelden because she'd balance him out, and I believe that Calain and Anora would work the same way.

So yes, I fully intend, when the time comes, to have Loghain executed.

Modifié par Rivie, 27 novembre 2009 - 04:07 .

[Akka le Vil]

cooldevo wrote...

He shows no leadership at all and is focused only on revenge.[/quote  How's that effective?  He's consumed with something other than the Blight, which is not his duty.  His duty requires better of him, and he comes up lacking.

You do realize you're describing Loghain and not Alistair here, right ?

Sure to different scales, but in Loghain's eyes he is upholding his oath to protect Fereldan.  Alistair has no qualms about ignoring his.

Wow, nice double-standards.
You've no problem about Loghain "holding his oath as protecting Ferelden" by handing it to the Darkspawns, but Alistair has no excuse supposedly breaking his because you are backstabbing him ?

Seriously, Loghain breaks ten times more his oath than Alistair. At least Alistair leave without trying to kill all the Grey Warden, while Loghain actually destroyed the forces of Ferelden and started a civil war.

As a leader Loghain made his choice and stands by it.  When proven wrong he seemingly realizes the error of his ways, at least he did in my playthroughs.  Alistair never does.  It takes a lot more to admit one is wrong and make recompense for it than it does to be stubborn headed during and after a decision.  No one in the game is perfect, or a saint, everyone has their checkered past.  That's why it's neither right nor wrong to decide one way or the other.

You're laughable in your double-standard again.
It takes Loghain killing thousands of people, being denounced as a traitor and a criminal, beaten to an inch of his life and having the country he's supposed to serve on the verge of destruction THROUGH HIS OWN ACTIONS to "see he was maybe wrong". That makes him just so The Man.
Alistair isn't convinced through two lines and that makes him Worse Than Loghain.

That's plainly ridiculous. 

To you (and others) they were not justifiable.  But no one else is in his shoes.

You're not in the shoes of Alistair, but you still see his incomparably SMALLER crime in harsher light than the incomparably BIGGER that Loghain commited.
Nice double-standards, again.

No PC saw the things he did when Orlais ruled Fereldan.  I have my sepculations that it must have been horrible due to his intense hatred of anything Orlesian.

I have seen what Darkspawns do to people, and I'm pretty sure the Orlaisians can't beat that - though, considering how shamelessly apologelic to Lohaing you are, I suppose you're going to quote Flemmeth or act "as if".
Didn't prevent Loghain of handing down the men he was supposed to serve and protect to the same Darkspawns.

Loghain's hatred for the Orlesian's and what they did is no worse than the intense hatred Alistair has towards Loghain. They were both willing to do anything to see their end through.  It consumed them both.

I didn't see Alistair randomly slaughtering people just because he's mad at Loghain, and I don't see him becoming mad.
Get your fact straight.

Well seriously it's so downright ridiculous there is no point in continuing. You're completely bending every fact we see in the game and your reasoning are contradictory and inconsistent. Willfull blindness is not possible to overcome. You're just like Loghain, in fact, inventing a point of view that serve your wishes without really bothering with actual facts.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cooldevo wrote...
Alistair is effective?  I wouldn't say he's effective at much of anything really.  Other than holding a tank.  He shows no leadership at all and is focused only on revenge.  How's that effective?  He's consumed with something other than the Blight, which is not his duty.  His duty requires better of him, and he comes up lacking.  And yes, Loghain has much better skills as a General than Alistair has.  What does Alistair really have?  Other than a few templar skills and a public desire to just follow anyone who will lead.  Up until that one moment in the Landsmeet that is.

Allistair takes his duty seriously. He's backing you all the way trough, he helps with suggestions and ideas (Recliffe is his idea) and he's a capable warrior. A general? I have no idea how good of a general he would make.
But to say Allistair is lacking in his duty is utter, utter folly.

To you (and others) they were not justifiable.  But no one else is in his shoes.  No PC saw the things he did when Orlais ruled Fereldan.  I have my sepculations that it must have been horrible due to his intense hatred of anything Orlesian.  Loghain's hatred for the Orlesian's and what they did is no worse than the intense hatred Alistair has towards Loghain.  They were both willing to do anything to see their end through.  It consumed them both.  That's really the only point I've been trying to make.  Different scales, but the same base principle.  They allowed their intense hatred to consume them and take over the common sense and judgement.

Then you're not making the point. You can't really compare the two men. Allistair isn't consumed by hate - Loghain is. Any normal man would act pretty much like Allistair does. No sane man would act like Loghain. This my boy, is a FACT.

EDIT:
Regarding loghain throwing in the tower at Ostagar - talk to some of the knights nad officers in the camp. They comment that Ostagar is a very defensibe position and they should score a decisive victory even if outnumbered.
Loghain having to withdraw (wihtout covering the kings retrat, or warning him or planing a escape route for him)? Bollocks.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 novembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[Hrodberht]

If you're a human noble, Loghain is complicit in the slaughter of your family(he talks to you about the king going after Howe in Ostagar, so he knows about your family, and later confirms Howe as Arl of Denerim and Teyrn of Highever). Now, maybe it's just me, but I tend to take a dim view of people that have a hand in wiping out my family. That whole episode also doesn't fit in with Loghain's "Orleis paranoia" motivation, since Howe's family were originally Orleis supporters. Right, so Loghain sides with him over a loyal family.

[cooldevo]

Akka le Vil wrote...
You do realize you're describing Loghain and not Alistair here, right ?

It describes them both.  They both did the wrong thing at the wrong time.  That's all there is too it.

Wow, nice double-standards.
You've no problem about Loghain "holding his oath as protecting Ferelden" by handing it to the Darkspawns, but Alistair has no excuse supposedly breaking his because you are backstabbing him ?

Seriously, Loghain breaks ten times more his oath than Alistair. At least Alistair leave without trying to kill all the Grey Warden, while Loghain actually destroyed the forces of Ferelden and started a civil war.

If he cannot put the Grey Wardens first and foremost than I am not the one backstabbing anyone.  Again, for the fourth time, even Riordan who was captured and tortured by Howe and Loghain thinks the same way I do.  That Loghain has the potential to be a good recruit.  2/3 of the available Grey Wardens in my playthroughs thought that he would be a good candidate.  I therefore took what Riordan said (as the senior Grey Warden) into account.

It doesn't matter if you break an oath ten times or just once.  It's broken either way.  Doesn't matter the scale or the scope, it's just broken.  That's not a double standard, that's about as black and white as it gets.  You either keep your word or you break it.

You're laughable in your double-standard again.
It takes Loghain killing thousands of people, being denounced as a traitor and a criminal, beaten to an inch of his life and having the country he's supposed to serve on the verge of destruction THROUGH HIS OWN ACTIONS to "see he was maybe wrong". That makes him just so The Man.
Alistair isn't convinced through two lines and that makes him Worse Than Loghain.
That's plainly ridiculous. 

In Loghain's eyes he was doing the right thing.  Was it?  I don't think it was.  Does that mean he is instantly a useless character?  No, he still has a lot of good skills and background according to the Lore.  When I take Loghain and he does his duty by fighting the archdemon and realizes what he did, does Alistair come back?  No.  Alistair says it dishonors all Grey Wardens, but when Loghain actually helps to restore everything, will Alistair realize he is wrong?  No he doesn't.  That's not double talk.  One realizes their mistake, while the other doesn't.  And in all of my playthroughs so far I have never had Loghain denounced officially as a traitor at the Landsmeet.  Maybe you played it differently, but I never got that.  I lost the vote in the Landsmeet by 1 vote as a human noble.  I only won aftering  proposing Alistair for the throne as true blood and Loghain then challenges Alistair to a duel which I fight as his champion.

You're not in the shoes of Alistair, but you still see his incomparably SMALLER crime in harsher light than the incomparably BIGGER that Loghain commited.
Nice double-standards, again.

I don't have to be in his shoes.  As a human noble I had my entire family wiped out and lands seized by Howe and Loghain.  How much more personal can it get?  Duncan and the rest of the Wardens weren't even family to Alistair.  So no double-standard there.

I have seen what Darkspawns do to people, and I'm pretty sure the Orlaisians can't beat that - though, considering how shamelessly apologelic to Lohaing you are, I suppose you're going to quote Flemmeth or act "as if".
Didn't prevent Loghain of handing down the men he was supposed to serve and protect to the same Darkspawns.

I never saw a direct video clip of the darkspawn doing anything to people so I can't compare to it.  Just Morrigan talking about eating them and draggin the living survivors underground.  I don't even see how the Orlesians ran the country other than indications it was brutal.  You also act like he was the first person to ever rise to power through underhanded tactics as well.  Flemeth makes it pretty clear right after Ostagar that it has been done before.  It's something that happens everywhere, just look at your Dwarven Noble story.  Does it make it right?  Depends on your perspective really.

I don't know what was going on the minds of Loghain, and will people STOP saying I'm only for Loghain.  All I am saying is that he has a use as a Grey Warden.  Alistair has a place just as much as any other person that is the best of the best.  That is the main and only point.  Grey Wardens take anyone no matter their past if they have the skills and abilities to be a Grey Warden.  There is no 'if', 'but', 'or' in there.

I didn't see Alistair randomly slaughtering people just because he's mad at Loghain, and I don't see him becoming mad.
Get your fact straight.

If you want to get into semantics so much, Loghain didn't directly slaughter anyone.  The Darkspawn did.  He just allowed it to happen.

Well seriously it's so downright ridiculous there is no point in continuing. You're completely bending every fact we see in the game and your reasoning are contradictory and inconsistent. Willfull blindness is not possible to overcome. You're just like Loghain, in fact, inventing a point of view that serve your wishes without really bothering with actual facts.

The same can be said of anyone that took my initial statement as a personal attack on their moral values.  I see a use for Loghain.  If you can't, great.  Express your different opinion and move on.  Don't paint me as something I'm not.

I seemingly have to keep repeating the same thing over and over.  I'll say it one last time so read carefully:

I don't support what Loghain did.  Just like I don't support Alistair abandoning so quickly when 2 of the 3 living Grey Wardens in Fereldan disagreed with him.  Both Loghain and Alistair have skills that make them good prospective Grey Wardens.  Alistair didn't stick around long enough to prove he was a true Grey Warden against the archdemon to be considered a full Warden in my eyes.  In my playthrough Loghain sees the error of his ways and turns out to be a good Grey Warden accodring to the epilogues.  In my character's world, he therefore was a good choice.  If Alistair had stuck around (or if I chose him), it may have been that he was a good choice too.  But he didn't give myself or Riordan a chance to do what needed to be done.  That is all.

[cooldevo]

Hrodberht wrote...
 Right, so Loghain sides with him over a loyal family.

Loyal to the deceased King.  And therefore a threat to his power.

I don't agree with it, but that's seemingly what it was.  Just like the Arl was a King supporter (and is at the Landsmeet) wanting Alistair crowned.  All the work they were doing was to get rid of Maric/Alistair/Cailan supporters.  Which in their frame of mind works.  Consolidate your power, and get rid of those that might oppose you.  Not what I would do, but then again I'm not a tyrant leader.

[Hrodberht]

cooldevo wrote...

I never saw a direct video clip of the darkspawn doing anything to people so I can't compare to it. 

I think what they did to dwarves they captured in the paragon questline is a pretty good indicator.

[Axterix]

Hrodberht wrote...

I think what they did to dwarves they captured in the paragon questline is a pretty good indicator.

But not exactly a widely known fact.

And, as a counterpoint, the bit about how Loghain talks of seeing unarmed men attack knights is a pretty good indicator that the Orlesians were not exactly nice either.

Fact is, Loghain was obsessed with the Orlesian issue.  He does bear final responsibility for what that led him to do.

But beyond that, there's many things we don't know.  For example, how many of the actual ideas were Howe's, not Loghain's, things Loghain went along with for expediency, the need to quickly get things under control, build up the army?  The hiring of Zevran, for example, is a Howe idea that Loghain's initial reaction seems to indicate he's against, although it doesn't take much to get to him to agree to it.  Another thing we don't know is whether or not Loghain is right about the Orlesians.  Just because he's paranoid, doesn't mean he isn't right.

Overall, I'd say Loghain has 2 major flaws: his obsessed hatred of Orlesians and his pride.  The former starts him down the path, the latter helps keep him on it.

Oh, and as to earlier posters about Duncan's recruiting policies, Most of the background stories are left pretty vague, so you can imagine whatever you want for your character's background before the story starts.  Two of the backgrounds though can have killed innocents.  The Dalish elf can kill 1-3 humans for being in the wrong place.  And the dwarf commoner gives you a chance to kill as well, plus implies that you've done it in the past.

[Recidiva]

Duncan was not a "good" man. He was an incredibly pragmatic and detached man. Daveth was a cutpurse who tried to steal from Duncan.
Duncan also murdered Ser Jory in cold blood and basically practiced not just blood magic, but darkspawn blood magic, non-consent, no less, and murdered to keep that secret.
It's Riordan who suggests that Loghain be a Grey Warden.
The Grey Wardens are not necessarily evil, but the only good they stand for is eliminating the darkspawn. They're just pragmatic and will go to any lengths.
The only way they let Alistair continue to idolize Duncan, who committed some of the worst crimes in the game, is to make him not terribly bright and giving him a fondness for action figures.
I really didn't understand how they could make him so intelligent in his humor, but so very, very stupid in the consistency of his principles. But that's what they needed, so there you go.  Awesome character until you hit Landsmeet and all his protestations about mercy and pragmatic need, and forgiveness of Duncan unconditionally for all he'd done, evaporated in personal wrath.

Modifié par Recidiva, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:49 .