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[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

Duncan also murdered Ser Jory in cold blood and basically practiced not just blood magic, but darkspawn blood magic, non-consent, no less, and murdered to keep that secret.

Well, Ser Jory's own fault.  A coward shouldn't have wanted to become a Grey Warden just to impress the ladies anyway.  That said, considering Jory is pretty obviously a weak candidate, not sure why he was picked in the first place.  Not like he was really a good fighter either.

The only way they let Alistair continue to idolize Duncan, who committed some of the worst crimes in the game, is to make him not terribly bright and giving him a fondness for action figures.

I think Duncan is overall a pretty good character, but he is a Warden and, not only that, the head Warden facing a Blight.  I think some of the warden invitee choices he makes are not just because he sees potential, but also because he wants to help people realize their potential, to get them out of a jam.  Call it his warden duty filtered by kindness.  Or, in certain cases (like the human noble story), kindness filtered by warden duty.

I really didn't understand how they could make him so intelligent in his humor, but so very, very stupid in the consistency of his principles. But that's what they needed, so there you go.

Alistair has daddy issues.  His real dad shipped him off to live elsewhere.  Then his new dad shipped him off to live elsewhere again.  And in neither of the two places he really belonged.  And then along comes Duncan.  A new father figure that doesn't send him away, but does the opposite, actually chooses him to come along.  And he gets to know his fellow wardens, likes them, and for the first time, feels he belongs.  He's got a dad.  He's got a home.  He's got a worthwhile cause.

He's really content, probably for the first time in his life.

[Recidiva]

Well, Ser Jory's own fault.  A coward shouldn't have wanted to become a Grey Warden just to impress the ladies anyway.  That said, considering Jory is pretty obviously a weak candidate, not sure why he was picked in the first place.  Not like he was really a good fighter either.

I think Duncan is overall a pretty good character, but he is a Warden and, not only that, the head Warden facing a Blight.  I think some of the warden invitee choices he makes are not just because he sees potential, but also because he wants to help people realize their potential, to get them out of a jam.  Call it his warden duty filtered by kindness.  Or, in certain cases (like the human noble story), kindness filtered by warden duty.

Alistair has daddy issues.  His real dad shipped him off to live elsewhere.  Then his new dad shipped him off to live elsewhere again.  And in neither of the two places he really belonged.  And then along comes Duncan.  A new father figure that doesn't send him away, but does the opposite, actually chooses him to come along.  And he gets to know his fellow wardens, likes them, and for the first time, feels he belongs.  He's got a dad.  He's got a home.  He's got a worthwhile cause.

He's really content, probably for the first time in his life.

I don't think that's Ser Jory's fault.  I think that bit's in there to show you that Duncan is ruthless and snags anybody he can find.  Particularly when you find out Ser Jory has a young wife and child on the way.  I think that's there to illustrate how much Duncan doesn't care about people other than bodies to fight darkspawn.  That wasn't a cowardly moment, that was a "wait a minute, I have a kid..." moment.  Perfectly understandable of a soon-to-be father.  Going through all the starting stories, too, the Noble's father is bleeding to death and Duncan insists on conscription.  Not a man of sentiment or even reason, particularly.  Just feeding blood to people and moving on to the next.  Sure, he takes care of you AFTER you're a Grey Warden.  Before that, not so much.
There are many points in the game I could have pointed out to Alistair that what I was doing was completely consistent with what Duncan would have done, as long as it benefitted the Grey Wardens and lessened darkspawn ranks ultimately.  In that light, sparing Loghain and turning him into a warden makes the most "good" and pragmatic sense to an Alistair who otherwise was queasy throughout the game when the "greater good" was disrupted.
It's unfortunate to have the plot hinge on one woman who has mommy issues and one guy who has daddy issues, neither of which can really ever be swayed from their purpose.
But that's just me, wanting a happy ending...again...*sigh*
So, Alistair, let's say we turn Loghain into a Grey Warden and let him take the dive, hey?  It's what Duncan would have wanted...c'mon.  I have high persuade...you know you want to!  That way we could tell Morrigan to **** off and someone else could be responsible for the sequel....

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

I don't think that's Ser Jory's fault.  I think that bit's in there to show you that Duncan is ruthless and snags anybody he can find.  Particularly when you find out Ser Jory has a young wife and child on the way.  I think that's there to illustrate how much Duncan doesn't care about people other than bodies to fight darkspawn.  That wasn't a cowardly moment, that was a "wait a minute, I have a kid..." moment.  Perfectly understandable of a soon-to-be father.  Going through all the starting stories, too, the Noble's father is bleeding to death and Duncan insists on conscription.  Not a man of sentiment or even reason, particularly.  Just feeding blood to people and moving on to the next.  Sure, he takes care of you AFTER you're a Grey Warden.  Before that, not so much.

No, I can't really see why Ser Jory was choosen at all.  Wardens look for certain things.  A certain ruthlessness is part of that.  And Jory just doesn't have it.  Alistair is borderline, but Jory just isn't.  He's a coward and it shows from the start.

The only reason reason I can see for him being a recruit is because the designers wanted to kill a recruit for failing to drink and therefore needed a character that would somewhat believably fail to do so.  Which I can buy.  But I can't buy why they'd have made him a recruit in the first place with such an obvious flaw.

It's unfortunate to have the plot hinge on one woman who has mommy issues and one guy who has daddy issues, neither of which can really ever be swayed from their purpose.
But that's just me, wanting a happy ending...again...*sigh*

Hehe, well, personally, since I have little respect for Alistair, that isn't as much of an issue, except I did want him to marry the queen, which would require him to leave the Wardens anyway, but no, he couldn't do that.

And Morrigan it was obvious from the start.  Wouldn't say she has mommy issues though.  She does have a bit of conflict between wanting attachments and feeling attachments are a weakness, but, while mommy helped make that an issue, the issue itself isn't about mommy, she's not looking for a new mommy.  As a matter of fact, overall, she seems pretty happy to be rid of her.

She's more driven by a hatred of cages of a desire for power than mother.

Ultimately though, what she is depends on what the official lore dictates she does with god-baby.  Does she try to become a malifecar like her mother so she can body hop (or find another way to do it)?  Or is she out to save something old and unique?  And does she ditch the player to be free to accomplish that goal or because she feels the relationship is coming to close to tying her down, starting to feel a lack of freedom?

Guess we'll find out in the sequal

Modifié par Axterix, 27 novembre 2009 - 10:32 .

[Recidiva]

Axterix wrote...
No, I can't really see why Ser Jory was choosen at all.  Wardens look for certain things.  A certain ruthlessness is part of that.  And Jory just doesn't have it.  Alistair is borderline, but Jory just isn't.  He's a coward and it shows from the start.

The only reason reason I can see for him being a recruit is because the designers wanted to kill a recruit for failing to drink and therefore needed a character that would somewhat believably fail to do so.  Which I can buy.  But I can't buy why they'd have made him a recruit in the first place with such an obvious flaw.

Hehe, well, personally, since I have little respect for Alistair, that isn't as much of an issue, except I did want him to marry the queen, which would require him to leave the Wardens anyway, but no, he couldn't do that.

And Morrigan it was obvious from the start.  Wouldn't say she has mommy issues though.  She does have a bit of conflict between wanting attachments and feeling attachments are a weakness, but, while mommy helped make that an issue, the issue itself isn't about mommy, she's not looking for a new mommy.  As a matter of fact, overall, she seems pretty happy to be rid of her.

She's more driven by a hatred of cages of a desire for power than mother.

Ultimately though, what she is depends on what the official lore dictates she does with god-baby.  Does she try to become a malifecar like her mother so she can body hop (or find another way to do it)?  Or is she out to save something old and unique?  And does she ditch the player to be free to accomplish that goal or because she feels the relationship is coming to close to tying her down, starting to feel a lack of freedom?

Guess we'll find out in the sequal

Bingo on Jory being a sad moral tale.   Or amoral tale.  I think it was there for effect.  Hard to justify it otherwise.
I loved Alistair for his humor and voice acting.  Right up to the point that I started swearing and thanking my husband for being witty, smart, AND not a kicked puppy.  T'was the wit that got me.  I read somewhere that the writers for Alistair were inspired by Joss Whedon's writing for Xander from "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" and Malcolm Reynolds from "Firefly" and they nailed that part.  BUT...they left out the real character flaws that should have made themselves more apparent earlier on and not been all cooled up. 
Morrigan said killing Flemeth wouldn't really kill Flemeth, just leave her bodiless and wandering (Voldemort?!) for a while.  She says that it was Flemeth's plan for Morrigan to get pregnant (that's my bit about mommy issues, saying at the end that this is what Flemeth intended all along.).  I guess I'm assuming that Morrigan will use Flemeth's grimoires to have a female child with the soul of an Old God, which means potentially...really really powerful...and then taking over the body at some point..  I'm assuming sequel wackiness ensues at that point.  It's telling that Morrigan will only sleep with the male NPC BEFORE she adores him, and then keeps her distance, until the end.

[tmp7704]

Axterix wrote...

No, I can't really see why Ser Jory was choosen at all.  Wardens look for certain things.  A certain ruthlessness is part of that.  And Jory just doesn't have it.  Alistair is borderline, but Jory just isn't.  He's a coward and it shows from the start.

When you first meet Jory he's very enthusiastic about the idea of fighting darkspawn (if you're enthusiastic about it yourself when you talk with the thief guy he's like "meh you're just like that knight") and he seems to have very high opinion on Wardens in general, something that made him try to earn a place in their ranks. I'd guess Duncan simply didn't spend much time testing Jory as candidate, much like he doesn't spend much time evaluating your character, really.  Jory's shortcomings and doubts only start coming out as the events unfold and by then it's unfortunately for him, too late.

[AtreiyaN7]

Recidiva wrote...

Duncan was not a "good" man. He was an incredibly pragmatic and detached man. Daveth was a cutpurse who tried to steal from Duncan.
Duncan also murdered Ser Jory in cold blood and basically practiced not just blood magic, but darkspawn blood magic, non-consent, no less, and murdered to keep that secret.
It's Riordan who suggests that Loghain be a Grey Warden.
The Grey Wardens are not necessarily evil, but the only good they stand for is eliminating the darkspawn. They're just pragmatic and will go to any lengths.
The only way they let Alistair continue to idolize Duncan, who committed some of the worst crimes in the game, is to make him not terribly bright and giving him a fondness for action figures.
I really didn't understand how they could make him so intelligent in his humor, but so very, very stupid in the consistency of his principles. But that's what they needed, so there you go.  Awesome character until you hit Landsmeet and all his protestations about mercy and pragmatic need, and forgiveness of Duncan unconditionally for all he'd done, evaporated in personal wrath.

Duncan did not murder Ser Jory in cold blood. He killed him in self-defense because Ser Jory drew first and was in danger of freaking out and hurting someone. People can try to say he didn't swing first or that it was a weak swing, but hey, the fact is that Ser Jory struck first & Duncan couldn't afford to let the situation escalate. Other Wardens have been killed by panicked recruits as someone else pointed out in another thread. Furthermore, the recruits were also told that there was no backing out. Hmph, he also shielded/held Cailan's dead body before dying himself. Oh yes, I'm sure that's something a terrible, evil man would do. *sarcasm*

If you talk to Riordan later on, he mentions that while Duncan may have toughened up over the years, he always had a soft spot for his recruits (he also mentions what rascals they used to be in the old days  ).Talk to Duncan's elven friend in the Denerim Alienage, and you get some insight into his recruiting practices/nature there as well. He valued talent, and he would look for it in the unlikeliest places. Duncan may have been pragmatic, but he was NOT so detached that he turned into some empty shell inacapable of feeling anything. He clearly has emotions and feelings.  

As for the blood magic aspect - no, this isn't the same as some apostate blood mage like Jowan (who, at  least, was repentant and wanted to make up for his actions). Do tell, what are all these "crimes" that Duncan committed? None as far as I can tell, unless you want to try to claim that Ser Jory's killing was "murder" or that dying heroically was a crime. *snort*  Oh, and in the human noble origin, Duncan does kind of save your butt (and your father's - alas, the outcome is tragic of course). In the mage origin, he seems quite impressed by the fact that you would stand by your friend no matter what.

The Grey Wardens may be pragmatic and ruthless in both recruiting & fighting darkspawn, but they do what it takes to stop Blights at great personal cost. Like someone else said, if you talk to any NPC and mention being a Warden, you generally get a positive reaction. They are respected, and while some of the recruits may have been murderers, thieves, whatever - ultimately they are all willing to sacrifice their lives for the greater good. They're like people everywhere, some are heroes & some aren't, but on the whole they're a force for good. Helloooo, Wynne's griffon story has a valuable lesson (okay, maybe not that valuable, but there were griffons so I had to mention it).  Their primary concern might be the darkspawn, but they defend all people, everywhere. I think they're basically seen as fair, honest, just and impartial on the whole.

As for Alistair, again, Duncan committed no crimes as far as I know. To Alistair, he's the man who saved him from life as a lyrium-addicted templar in the nick of time and functioned as his only father figure since Arl Eamon. You're talking about a guy who was treated like crap by pretty much everyone at the Chantry (if you'll recall, he says the nobles ignored him & the commoners thought he was putting on airs) and then found a family in the Grey Wardens with someone who valued him for his worth and didn't judge him because of his background. Furthermore,  Alistair stuck to his principles of being good, kind, just, etc. etc from Ostagar on. In his eyes, I think that's what the Grey Wardens are in part - a force for good, not just a bunch of people whose sole function is stopping Blights (although that is their primary function).

At the Landsmeet however, I think Alistair is being pushed past his limits. Sure, if you talk to Riordan, he does mention the fact that Wardens are basically not supposed to let their emotions enter into their decision-making  and that they will (basically) take on the scum of the earth if necessary. However, Alistair has ALWAYS viewed being a Grey Warden as a high honor and to have the man who murdered his mentor and spat upon everything the Grey Wardens stand for (and tried to murder them/frame them/destroy them) - it's just too much for him to take, rightly or wrongly. Riordan might have the age, wisdom & perspective to detach himself from the situation and find recruiting Loghain acceptable. However, Alistair is relatively young and hasn't been a Warden all that long, so he's still at the point where he's letting his emotions get the better of him. Real people have emotional responses and don't always behave rationally - such is life.  

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 27 novembre 2009 - 10:55 .

[Recidiva]

Duncan did not murder Ser Jory in cold blood. He killed him in self-defense because Ser Jory drew first and was in danger of freaking out and hurting someone. People can try to say he didn't swing first or that it was a weak swing, but hey, the fact is that Ser Jory struck first & Duncan couldn't afford to let the situation escalate. Other Wardens have been killed by panicked recruits as someone else pointed out in another thread. Furthermore, the recruits were also told that there was no backing out. Hmph, he also shielded/held Cailan's dead body before dying himself. Oh yes, I'm sure that's something a terrible, evil man would do. *sarcasm*

If you talk to Riordan later on, he mentions that while Duncan may have toughened up over the years, he always had a soft spot for his recruits (he also mentions what rascals they used to be in the old days  ).Talk to Duncan's elven friend in the Denerim Alienage, and you get some insight into his recruiting practices/nature there as well. He valued talent, and he would look for it in the unlikeliest places. Duncan may have been pragmatic, but he was NOT so detached that he turned into some empty shell inacapable of feeling anything. He clearly has emotions and feelings.  

As for the blood magic aspect - no, this isn't the same as some apostate blood mage like Jowan (who, at  least, was repentant and wanted to make up for his actions). Do tell, what are all these "crimes" that Duncan committed? None as far as I can tell, unless you want to try to claim that Ser Jory's killing was "murder" or that dying heroically was a crime. *snort*  Oh, and in the human noble origin, Duncan does kind of save your butt (and your father's - alas, the outcome is tragic of course). In the mage origin, he seems quite impressed by the fact that you would stand by your friend no matter what.

The Grey Wardens may be pragmatic and ruthless in both recruiting & fighting darkspawn, but they do what it takes to stop Blights at great personal cost. Like someone else said, if you talk to any NPC and mention being a Warden, you generally get a positive reaction. They are respected, and while some of the recruits may have been murderers, thieves, whatever - ultimately they are all willing to sacrifice their lives for the greater good. They're like people everywhere, some are heroes & some aren't, but on the whole they're a force for good. Helloooo, Wynne's griffon story has a valuable lesson (okay, maybe not that valuable, but there were griffons so I had to mention it).  Their primary concern might be the darkspawn, but they defend all people, everywhere. I think they're basically seen as fair, honest, just and impartial on the whole.

As for Alistair, again, Duncan committed no crimes as far as I know. To Alistair, he's the man who saved him from life as a lyrium-addicted templar in the nick of time and functioned as his only father figure since Arl Eamon. You're talking about a guy who was treated like crap by pretty much everyone at the Chantry (if you'll recall, he says the nobles ignored him & the commoners thought he was putting on airs) and then found a family in the Grey Wardens with someone who valued him for his worth and didn't judge him because of his background. Furthermore,  Alistair stuck to his principles of being good, kind, just, etc. etc from Ostagar on. In his eyes, I think that's what the Grey Wardens are in part - a force for good, not just a bunch of people whose sole function is stopping Blights (although that is their primary function).

At the Landsmeet however, I think Alistair is being pushed past his limits. Sure, if you talk to Riordan, he does mention the fact that Wardens are basically not supposed to let their emotions enter into their decision-making  and that they will (basically) take on the scum of the earth if necessary. However, Alistair has ALWAYS viewed being a Grey Warden as a high honor and to have the man who murdered his mentor and spat upon everything the Grey Wardens stand for (and tried to murder them/frame them/destroy them) - it's just too much for him to take, rightly or wrongly. Riordan might have the age, wisdom & perspective to detach himself from the situation and find recruiting Loghain acceptable. However, Alistair is relatively young and hasn't been a Warden all that long, so he's still at the point where he's letting his emotions get the better of him. Real people have emotional responses and don't always behave rationally - such is life.  

Then if being a Grey Warden was such an honor, people could have had full disclosure and volunteered for it. Even knowing that, my characters would have done so.  (Especially the elf who was already dying.)  My issue is full disclosure followed by consent.  I consider it a "good" trait to let people know what they're in for rather than let historical glory pave the way to possibly a very, very short and painful life where all your choices have been robbed from you.  How much nobler would it be to go to the Joining knowing what you were doing?  How much resolve would you have knowing you weren't tricked into it?   How much stronger could the Grey Wardens have been if they didn't deceive?  I do know the difference between "Pick up your sword and fight for Ferelden!" and "Here, you might not live through the initiation because you have to drink a cocktail of lyrium/archdemon/darkspawn blood, you're going to die young, you have to suffer horrible nightmares and live in close quarters with darkspawn, because you essentially ARE one...still in?" 
Justifying NOT telling people and then essentially using lethal darkspawn blood magic and killing those who choose to otherwise back out...all I can say is Fereldan is screwed for lots of reasons.  This isn't helping.
Duncan could have disarmed Jory and let him go on his way.  Running him through wasn't a necessity.  It was a choice.

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

Bingo on Jory being a sad moral tale.   Or amoral tale.  I think it was there for effect.  Hard to justify it otherwise.
I loved Alistair for his humor and voice acting.  Right up to the point that I started swearing and thanking my husband for being witty, smart, AND not a kicked puppy.  T'was the wit that got me.  I read somewhere that the writers for Alistair were inspired by Joss Whedon's writing for Xander from "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" and Malcolm Reynolds from "Firefly" and they nailed that part.  BUT...they left out the real character flaws that should have made themselves more apparent earlier on and not been all cooled up. 

See, I like Xander, except for him leaving his gal at the altar.  Foolish, foolish Xander.  The thing about Xander is that he's the one guy in the action without super powers, without some revenge motiff, and yet he's still there.

Alistair, I like his humor, but the urge to smack him down with the put down conversation option is just so strong.  Man up, already!

Morrigan said killing Flemeth wouldn't really kill Flemeth, just leave her bodiless and wandering (Voldemort?!) for a while.  She says that it was Flemeth's plan for Morrigan to get pregnant (that's my bit about mommy issues, saying at the end that this is what Flemeth intended all along.).  I guess I'm assuming that Morrigan will use Flemeth's grimoires to have a female child with the soul of an Old God, which means potentially...really really powerful...and then taking over the body at some point..  I'm assuming sequel wackiness ensues at that point.  It's telling that Morrigan will only sleep with the male NPC BEFORE she adores him, and then keeps her distance, until the end.

It requires a Maleficar to do body snatching thing though.  So Morrigan would have to go that route first or else figure out how to do it without being one.

As to Morrigan keeping distance, yeah, that's part of her personality.  For her, it is sex, not love.  And I do wonder how much of her leaving stems from her hatred of cages, that loving the PC makes her feel tied down, limited, and she does not like that.

Although, realistically, it is probably just to set up the sequel.  But, hey, I like the idea of her having a vulnerable side, of a bit of tragedy to it all, rather than her leaving for power.

Modifié par Axterix, 27 novembre 2009 - 11:11 .

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Then if being a Grey Warden was such an honor, people could have had full disclosure and volunteered for it. Even knowing that, my characters would have done so.

The thing is, being a Grey Warden can be perceived as an honour precisely because people are not aware Grey Wardens are "one archdemon short of Blight" themselves, to use a phrase from the game. Making this a public knowledge would most likely lead to having the Wardens rounded up and killed out of plain fear of what such individuals might be capable of, no matter their track record. Much like the mages are controlled and/or hunted down due to their potential.

edit: also, there is a matter of getting enough of volunteers in situation where the cost of joining is known. This situation closely mirrors that of the dwarves and their golems. The golems are very much like the Grey Wardens in the sense of price for becoming one being quite similar, and note how at some point relying just on the volunteers no longer suffices.

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 novembre 2009 - 11:20 .

[Sarethus]

Axterix wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

I don't think that's Ser Jory's fault.  I think that bit's in there to show you that Duncan is ruthless and snags anybody he can find.  Particularly when you find out Ser Jory has a young wife and child on the way.  I think that's there to illustrate how much Duncan doesn't care about people other than bodies to fight darkspawn.  That wasn't a cowardly moment, that was a "wait a minute, I have a kid..." moment.  Perfectly understandable of a soon-to-be father.  Going through all the starting stories, too, the Noble's father is bleeding to death and Duncan insists on conscription.  Not a man of sentiment or even reason, particularly.  Just feeding blood to people and moving on to the next.  Sure, he takes care of you AFTER you're a Grey Warden.  Before that, not so much.

No, I can't really see why Ser Jory was choosen at all.  Wardens look for certain things.  A certain ruthlessness is part of that.  And Jory just doesn't have it.  Alistair is borderline, but Jory just isn't.  He's a coward and it shows from the start.

The only reason reason I can see for him being a recruit is because the designers wanted to kill a recruit for failing to drink and therefore needed a character that would somewhat believably fail to do so.  Which I can buy.  But I can't buy why they'd have made him a recruit in the first place with such an obvious flaw.

I think people should keep in mind that prior to the actual joining Ser Jory was somewhat enthusiastic. He deliberatly entered & won a Tournament to be selected as a Grey Warden. I don't find it hard to believe that all the way upto Ostagar he was actually looking forward to being a Grey Warden. However the closer he came Ostagar, the more he realised that this would be a lifetime commitment, the more he realised that Grey Wardens would fight battles that Knights would not be willing to and against odds that Knights would consider heroic last stand time, the more he thought of his wife & child and the more he wanted to back out.

Duncan can't really be faulted for accepting a skilled (he won the tournament) Knight who was probably enthusiastic & eager when he was actually recruited.

     

[Recidiva]

Axterix wrote...See, I like Xander, except for him leaving his gal at the altar.  Foolish, foolish Xander.  The thing about Xander is that he's the one guy in the action without super powers, without some revenge motiff, and yet he's still there.

Alistair, I like his humor, but the urge to smack him down with the put down conversation option is just so strong.  Man up, already!It requires a Maleficar to do body snatching thing though.  So Morrigan would have to go that route first or else figure out how to do it without being one.

As to Morrigan keeping distance, yeah, that's part of her personality.  For her, it is sex, not love.  And I do wonder how much of her leaving stems from her hatred of cages, that loving the PC makes her feel tied down, limited, and she does not like that.

Although, realistically, it is probably just to set up the sequel.  But, hey, I like the idea of her having a vulnerable side, of a bit of tragedy to it all, rather than her leaving for power.

I like Xander and Mal.  I don't accept that humor is just for deflection, so that premise really irritated me.
I'm okay with pain and grieving, so that never bothered me.  My character was in pain and grieving too, made for some nice cameraderie and satisfyling roleplay.  I don't think either pain or grief are weaknesses, they're just part of caring.  Had he broken down DURING battle, that would have been an issue.  But he was always out there cracking wise and heads when needed. 
I think Morrigan left to preserve the power she sacrificed so much to achieve.  (Having to hang out with smelly, stupid people she despised.  Alistair in particular.)  She had some great vulnerable moments during the game.  Most of which were in casual conversation.  Saying to Leliana that the stories her mother told her haunted her dreams and terrified her.  Her obviously liking Dog though rebuffing him all the time.  "We'll see.  I promise nothing!"  And her dialogue with the PC when she adored him or her.  Very touching and well written.  And one of the most honest and forthright characters in the game.  I even felt a serious twinge the one time I lied to her about killing Flemeth...but I did enjoy offering to turn her into the first Golem if she thought power was all I was after. 
I do think the best, most inspiritng writing happens in the first third of the game.  Then it starts to get...really muddy.  But still...best...game...ever.  I pick because I actually...well...care. 
The extent to which the game has resonated with me personally is remarkable, stages of my life, thoughts I've had myself, situations I've been in, people I've cared for and couldn't persuade to not be other than they are in that moment.  Myself included.

[Axterix]

tmp7704 wrote...

edit: also, there is a matter of getting enough of volunteers in situation where the cost of joining is known. This situation closely mirrors that of the dwarves and their golems. The golems are very much like the Grey Wardens in the sense of price for becoming one being quite similar, and note how at some point relying just on the volunteers no longer suffices.

I find it interesting how the wardens mirror the templars a bit too.

Wardens have the Blight and Darkspawn, Templars the mages and Maleficar.  Wardens drink Darkblood that will eventually kill them, so that they can better fight the Blight.  Templars chug Lyrium, so they can better fight against magic, which ultimately leads to an early death for them as well or, at the least, a loss of self.

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Then if being a Grey Warden was such an honor, people could have had full disclosure and volunteered for it. Even knowing that, my characters would have done so.

The thing is, being a Grey Warden can be perceived as an honour precisely because people are not aware Grey Wardens are "one archdemon short of Blight" themselves, to use a phrase from the game. Making this a public knowledge would most likely lead to having the Wardens rounded up and killed out of plain fear of what such individuals might be capable of, no matter their track record. Much like the mages are controlled and/or hunted down due to their potential.

edit: also, there is a matter of getting enough of volunteers in situation where the cost of joining is known. This situation closely mirrors that of the dwarves and their golems. The golems are very much like the Grey Wardens in the sense of price for becoming one being quite similar, and note how at some point relying just on the volunteers no longer suffices.

Shayle's story made me cry.  But that's the point.  The real heroes are out there.  You can't inspire them by lying about what it takes to be a hero.  Maybe if the world didn't think it already had spotless Grey Wardens they'd get cracking on some other solution.

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

I do think the best, most inspiritng writing happens in the first third of the game.  Then it starts to get...really muddy.  But still...best...game...ever.  I pick because I actually...well...care. 
The extent to which the game has resonated with me personally is remarkable, stages of my life, thoughts I've had myself, situations I've been in, people I've cared for and couldn't persuade to not be other than they are in that moment.  Myself included.

Aye, I've enjoyed it quite a bit.  Sten in particular was very interesting, because of how alien he was and him not exactly being forthcoming about things.  Overall, different characters resonate well with different people.  Some people like Morrigan, some like Leliana.

And I like the grey to it all.  The layers.  Hence why we have topics on whether or not Morrigan is evil, how nice is Leliana really, and, of course, the ever popular Loghain, evil but redeemable or EVIL?

If there's 1 weakness, I'd say it is probably Zevran.  Guys seem a bit more split between Leliana and Morrigan than the gals between Alistair and Zevran.  And most that do give Zevran a shot do so mostly because there's no super happy Alistair ending.

Well, that and Dog gets the short end of the stick.  I mean, he doesn't get many talents, rarely gets to pick them, no party character quest, and doesn't get nearly as much conversation options, not to mention is loyalty is pretty much a given.  More character for Dog!

[tmp7704]

Axterix wrote...

I find it interesting how the wardens mirror the templars a bit too.

Wardens have the Blight and Darkspawn, Templars the mages and Maleficar.  Wardens drink Darkblood that will eventually kill them, so that they can better fight the Blight.  Templars chug Lyrium, so they can better fight against magic, which ultimately leads to an early death for them as well or, at the least, a loss of self.

Yup there certainly seem to be some parallels between these two orders. Given this, there's perhaps some similarities between the qualities sought in the candidates... iirc the Codex says something about the templars being recruited mainly for their combat prowess and unwavering dedication. Quality of character is secondary and definitely doesn't have to meet the ideal of "knight in shining armour", often being very far from it.

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

Shayle's story made me cry.  But that's the point.  The real heroes are out there.  You can't inspire them by lying about what it takes to be a hero.  Maybe if the world didn't think it already had spotless Grey Wardens they'd get cracking on some other solution.

I think people would join for the Gryphons!  Well, back when they had gryphons.

But, yeah, it seems to me that people who join should be committed to the cause.  Poisoning them seems like the type of thing that would make some people want out.  And if your goal is to get people who are willing to sacrifice themselves to the cause, well, knowing the cost up front should help with that.

And having people know you need a Grey Warden to kill an archdemon might just make it less likely to, say, kick you out the country or try and exterminate you.

But the downside would be the taint.  Many a bad thing Wardens do might end up being attributed to the taint, rather than fanatical devotion to the cause.  And that might well make them less welcomed, as well as make people less willing to let family go to be a warden.  Consider the hatred mages can receive.

Plus secret rituals are an effective technique to build loyalty, devotion to a cause.  The sharing of something secret, ties you to others that have been through it, that are in the know.

[AtreiyaN7]

Recidiva wrote...


Then if being a Grey Warden was such an honor, people could have had full disclosure and volunteered for it. Even knowing that, my characters would have done so.  (Especially the elf who was already dying.)  My issue is full disclosure followed by consent.  I consider it a "good" trait to let people know what they're in for rather than let historical glory pave the way to possibly a very, very short and painful life where all your choices have been robbed from you.  How much nobler would it be to go to the Joining knowing what you were doing?  How much resolve would you have knowing you weren't tricked into it?   How much stronger could the Grey Wardens have been if they didn't deceive?  I do know the difference between "Pick up your sword and fight for Ferelden!" and "Here, you might not live through the initiation because you have to drink a cocktail of lyrium/archdemon/darkspawn blood, you're going to die young, you have to suffer horrible nightmares and live in close quarters with darkspawn, because you essentially ARE one...still in?" 
Justifying NOT telling people and then essentially using lethal darkspawn blood magic and killing those who choose to otherwise back out...all I can say is Fereldan is screwed for lots of reasons.  This isn't helping.
Duncan could have disarmed Jory and let him go on his way.  Running him through wasn't a necessity.  It was a choice.

A)  In fact, the first Wardens' surviving followers took up their mantle, and there were many volunteers in the early days if you read the Codex entries (unless I'm grossly mistaken). They fought for a long time and at great cost to kill the first Archdemon. Like it or not, history is on their side. Heck, even your character's actions define how a Grey Warden behaves/how they are perceived/what they are like. I think most people fall on the side of doing good. Besides, that red-haired knight from the human noble origin WANTED to be recruited by Duncan and was excited about the possibility.

Those that survive the taint are NOT essentially darkspawn - they have a connection to the darkspawn, and they can sense them and the Archdemon. However, this is entirely different from someone who eats darkspawn flesh like Ruck or Hespith and IS transformed into something less-than-human as a result.

C) Full disclosure? It's nice in theory. Maybe the Grey Wardens are worried about blood mages twisting their knowledge for evil purposes. I think that's a legitimate concern after you've seen what can happen with mages & blood magic in the Broken Circle. What happens if they or the world at large finds out about the darkspawn/archdemon blood mixture, eh? Goodness knows what could happen then. I mean, look at what the Tevinter Imperium mages did (trying to take the Maker's city for themselves...yeah, that turned out well).  As far as I'm concerned, I can see why they'd want to keep certain things secret.

D) Again, with the "he could disarm him" argument.  I still don't think that Duncan could afford to take the chance. It wasn't about Duncan killing Ser Jory to protect their big secret. Ser Jory with his big---- sword posed an imminent danger to himself and to Alistair and to you (the last potential recruit). See above about other people being killed by a panicking recruit. Sadly, as far as the recruiting goes, the brutal fact is that you either go all the way or die outright.

I think the Joining is, in part, meant to separate the weak from those who have the will to see things through. People can say they're brave & appear heroic but snap when faced with something like that (Ser Jory). It is probably quite necessary to see how a person will act when suddenly faced with a life or death situation, given how much is riding on the Grey Wardens being able to do their duty. Going back to the aforementioned red-haired knight whose name I can't recall: he's a perfect example - he was brave when faced with imminent death, held the gates & acted nobly, knowing that he was, most definitely, going to die. Ser Jory wigged out & he was already well on his way to panic-land after you run into that soldier in the Korcari Wilds.

E) By rights, the Grey Wardens can use the Rite of Conscription to snag anyone they want, but they don't do that all time. They're not thugs just forcing everyone to join the cause at all costs.

** Edited to append item E on the list. The point being that it's not something they do ALL the time or very lightly.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 27 novembre 2009 - 11:58 .

[Recidiva]

Aye, I've enjoyed it quite a bit.  Sten in particular was very interesting, because of how alien he was and him not exactly being forthcoming about things.  Overall, different characters resonate well with different people.  Some people like Morrigan, some like Leliana.

And I like the grey to it all.  The layers.  Hence why we have topics on whether or not Morrigan is evil, how nice is Leliana really, and, of course, the ever popular Loghain, evil but redeemable or EVIL?

If there's 1 weakness, I'd say it is probably Zevran.  Guys seem a bit more split between Leliana and Morrigan than the gals between Alistair and Zevran.  And most that do give Zevran a shot do so mostly because there's no super happy Alistair ending.

Well, that and Dog gets the short end of the stick.  I mean, he doesn't get many talents, rarely gets to pick them, no party character quest, and doesn't get nearly as much conversation options, not to mention is loyalty is pretty much a given.  More character for Dog!

I loved Dog.  Could also be because I used to own a Rottweiler who looked and acted just like him.  Dog gets dread howl.  AWESOME.  He does suffer from having no range attacks, out of everyone.  Hell, even Shale can toss rocks.  He should be able to do howl ranged damage or something.  Oh well.  Makes him useless during the final fight when at least 1/4 of it is range.
Zevran's the line I didn't really follow.  I like the character, but I almost accidentally fell in bed with him.  Too practical, and I'm a hopeless romantic.  
So Alistair's really my only choice.  At least the only character that makes me save games and play stuff over and over and try out new dialogue tree options.  But it's the voice, dammit.  The actor's voice is awesome.  And knowing that if you follow enough trees, there are more Alistair fun surprises than there are other character fun surprises.  Telling me he'd put on a dress for me, but it would have to be a pretty dress was too much to resist.
Leliana's sweet, but I'm a straight woman, so there's no real resonance, only me being determined to get the "Hopeless Romantic" achievement.

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

I loved Dog.  Could also be because I used to own a Rottweiler who looked and acted just like him.  Dog gets dread howl.  AWESOME.  He does suffer from having no range attacks, out of everyone.  Hell, even Shale can toss rocks.  He should be able to do howl ranged damage or something.  Oh well.  Makes him useless during the final fight when at least 1/4 of it is range.

Dog can fire the balista while others do ranged attacks.  That's right, puppy can operate heavy machinery.  Who's a good dog?  Yeah, that's a good boy.

I just wish he had more talent points, both choices and a point every level like everyone else.  And maybe some skill points too.  I mean, Dog should be able to get survival and the better AI one at the least.

Zevran's the line I didn't really follow.  I like the character, but I almost accidentally fell in bed with him.  Too practical, and I'm a hopeless romantic.  
So Alistair's really my only choice.  At least the only character that makes me save games and play stuff over and over and try out new dialogue tree options.  But it's the voice, dammit.  The actor's voice is awesome.  And knowing that if you follow enough trees, there are more Alistair fun surprises than there are other character fun surprises.  Telling me he'd put on a dress for me, but it would have to be a pretty dress was too much to resist.

Yeah, that's what I think is sort of issue with the storyline from a female perspective, at least what I read here.  As a guy, we've got more options for a full on happy ending.  The gal who leaves is the morally questionable one.  The one who stays is the more traditional bring home to mom one.  And, for that matter, Zevran holds to that as well, if you go that way (though I'd imagine some or many gay guys would prefer Alistair, if they could).  And if we want to do the ritual, we can have the other male warden sleep with Morrigan.  So you can be all traditional, no outside dalliance.

For the straight women, you've got Alistair, who is the more traditional guy, but it can't end perfectly happy.  Either he's got to sleep with Morrigan, you hook up with the less traditional Zevran, or one of you two is dead.

Modifié par Axterix, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

cooldevo wrote...

If he cannot put the Grey Wardens first and foremost than I am not the one backstabbing anyone.  Again, for the fourth time, even Riordan who was captured and tortured by Howe and Loghain thinks the same way I do.  That Loghain has the potential to be a good recruit.  2/3 of the available Grey Wardens in my playthroughs thought that he would be a good candidate.  I therefore took what Riordan said (as the senior Grey Warden) into account.

Rodian thinks Loghain has good chances of surviving the Joining. That really doesn't make Loghain "prime warden material". Far from it.

It doesn't matter if you break an oath ten times or just once.  It's broken either way.  Doesn't matter the scale or the scope, it's just broken.  That's not a double standard, that's about as black and white as it gets.  You either keep your word or you break it.

Have you kept your word about bringing Loghain to justice? No? Then why should Allistair follow you? I wouldn't.

In Loghain's eyes he was doing the right thing.  Was it?  I don't think it was.  Does that mean he is instantly a useless character?  No, he still has a lot of good skills and background according to the Lore.  When I take Loghain and he does his duty by fighting the archdemon and realizes what he did, does Alistair come back?  No.  Alistair says it dishonors all Grey Wardens, but when Loghain actually helps to restore everything, will Alistair realize he is wrong?  No he doesn't.  That's not double talk.  One realizes their mistake, while the other doesn't.  And in all of my playthroughs so far I have never had Loghain denounced officially as a traitor at the Landsmeet.  Maybe you played it differently, but I never got that.  I lost the vote in the Landsmeet by 1 vote as a human noble.  I only won aftering  proposing Alistair for the throne as true blood and Loghain then challenges Alistair to a duel which I fight as his champion.

Except Allistair wasn't wrong. Becoming a Grey Warden is a great honor - pretty muhc anyone in TheDas (and Ferelden) considers it so. By inviting Loghain in the Grey Warden you're spitting at EVERYTHING Allistair belives in. You're spitting on Duncans corpse, on the corpse of all the grey wardens and soldiers and people Loghain killed.
Allistairs reaction couldn't be more normal.

I don't have to be in his shoes.  As a human noble I had my entire family wiped out and lands seized by Howe and Loghain.  How much more personal can it get?  Duncan and the rest of the Wardens weren't even family to Alistair.  So no double-standard there.

Except you dont' even bother to try to see things his way or any other way for that matter. Jsut because you play as a human noble doesn't mean you dont' have double-standards. Well, that or you just suck at roleplaying properly...or you're roleplaying a emotianless bastard.

I don't know what was going on the minds of Loghain, and will people STOP saying I'm only for Loghain.  All I am saying is that he has a use as a Grey Warden.  Alistair has a place just as much as any other person that is the best of the best.  That is the main and only point.  Grey Wardens take anyone no matter their past if they have the skills and abilities to be a Grey Warden.  There is no 'if', 'but', 'or' in there.

Any proof of this? That the past doens't matter AT ALL? All the wardens we've seen or met were either petty criminals or knights.

If you want to get into semantics so much, Loghain didn't directly slaughter anyone.  The Darkspawn did.  He just allowed it to happen.

Even worse. Outright killing would be more mercifull.

The same can be said of anyone that took my initial statement as a personal attack on their moral values.  I see a use for Loghain.  If you can't, great.  Express your different opinion and move on.  Don't paint me as something I'm not.

that's not the point. Of course he can be of use., EVERYTHING can. That old geezer in the corner can be of some use. That is irrelevant to the point.

The point is that given his history and current situation, his usefulness is questionabel at best, and the act of making him a grey warden is ever more questionable from a moral, legislative, hornor and duty aspect.
The point is that Allistair acted like a perfectly normal rational human beaing. Loghain acted like a obsessed moron.

This has been pretty much proven so far.

[Recidiva]

Axterix wrote...Dog can fire the balista while others do ranged attacks.  That's right, puppy can operate heavy machinery.  Who's a good dog?  Yeah, that's a good boy.

I just wish he had more talent points, both choices and a point every level like everyone else.  And maybe some skill points too.  I mean, Dog should be able to get survival and the better AI one at the least.

Yeah, that's what I think is sort of issue with the storyline from a female perspective, at least what I read here.  As a guy, we've got more options for a full on happy ending.  The gal who leaves is the morally questionable one.  The one who stays is the more traditional bring home to mom one.  And, for that matter, Zevran holds to that as well, if you go that way (though I'd imagine some or many gay guys would prefer Alistair, if they could).  And if we want to do the ritual, we can have the other male warden sleep with Morrigan.  So you can be all traditional, no outside dalliance.

For the straight women, you've got Alistair, who is the more traditional guy, but it can't end perfectly happy.  Either he's got to sleep with Morrigan, you hook up with the less traditional Zevran, or one of you two is dead.

Dog can fire the ballista?  How cool is he?  How cool?  Soooo cool!  I agree, Dog should get more.
I do have to admit that one of my male characters kept waiting for romance options with Alistair.  Bum-mer.
I was very surprised that Morrigan won't tolerate you sleeping with anybody else even though she says she will not make any demands on you.  Also, Zevran will say that he doesn't mind that I'm sleeping around, but Alistair would.  Took me a game to figure that one out.  You really can't be polyamorous without hurting someone.  Not what I expected from an otherwise hardcore game.  Even a toughened up Alistair ninjas me in those fun unavoidable conversations you can't get out of without choosing one or the other.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Recidiva wrote...

Duncan was not a "good" man. He was an incredibly pragmatic and detached man. Daveth was a cutpurse who tried to steal from Duncan.
Duncan also murdered Ser Jory in cold blood and basically practiced not just blood magic, but darkspawn blood magic, non-consent, no less, and murdered to keep that secret.
It's Riordan who suggests that Loghain be a Grey Warden.
The Grey Wardens are not necessarily evil, but the only good they stand for is eliminating the darkspawn. They're just pragmatic and will go to any lengths.
The only way they let Alistair continue to idolize Duncan, who committed some of the worst crimes in the game, is to make him not terribly bright and giving him a fondness for action figures.
I really didn't understand how they could make him so intelligent in his humor, but so very, very stupid in the consistency of his principles. But that's what they needed, so there you go.  Awesome character until you hit Landsmeet and all his protestations about mercy and pragmatic need, and forgiveness of Duncan unconditionally for all he'd done, evaporated in personal wrath.[/quote]

Bollocks.

Ser Jory pulled shis sword first. You can ask Duncan about it, and he explains it.
And what blood magic? The Grey Warden drink a mix of darskpawn blood, lyrium and archdemon bllod. No magic spells involved there last I heared.

Duncan is pragmatic but he has morals.


[qutoe]
I don't think that's Ser Jory's fault.  I think that bit's in there to
show you that Duncan is ruthless and snags anybody he can find. [/quote]

Bah. There's no need for that. He can snag many. People consider becoming a Grey Warden a great honor. Knights compete for Duncans favor. He's not snagging anybody he can find. He's snagging those he deems have a good chance of surviving hte Joining.

EDIt:
Frankly, I think Rhodian was a moron for suggesting Loghain.  I don't consider it a smart, reasonable decision. Or a realistic one for that matter.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:30 .

[Recidiva]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...Bollocks.

Ser Jory pulled shis sword first. You can ask Duncan about it, and he explains it.
And what blood magic? The Grey Warden drink a mix of darskpawn blood, lyrium and archdemon bllod. No magic spells involved there last I heared.

Duncan is pragmatic but he has morals.

Bah. There's no need for that. He can snag many. People consider becoming a Grey Warden a great honor. Knights compete for Duncans favor. He's not snagging anybody he can find. He's snagging those he deems have a good chance of surviving hte Joining.

Jory couldn't take a wolf solo, much less Duncan.

The joining involves mages and Lyrium and darkspawn and archdemon blood.That's not blood magic how?   Riordan and Alistair both explain that it's very complicated and involves magic. 

As for picking those who can survive the joining, his judgment leading thim to a loss of  two out of three...is bad.

Modifié par Recidiva, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:31 .

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

As for picking those who can survive the joining, his judgment leading thim to a loss of  two out of three...is bad.

That'd depend on the normal survival rate.  I figure it is around 50%, at best.  Which means, given the small sample size, he didn't do bad.

Added to that, only 1 out of 2 failed physically.  Jory seemed promising in the tournament, I reckon, so good candidate physically, just turned out to be a bit weak mentally.  But then, that's probably part of the test right there.  If you aren't willing to drink, you aren't worthy, you die.  Once you become a candidate, you belong to the Wardens until death, pretty much.

[Recidiva]

That'd depend on the normal survival rate.  I figure it is around 50%, at best.  Which means, given the small sample size, he didn't do bad.

Added to that, only 1 out of 2 failed physically.  Jory seemed promising in the tournament, I reckon, so good candidate physically, just turned out to be a bit weak mentally.  But then, that's probably part of the test right there.  If you aren't willing to drink, you aren't worthy, you die.  Once you become a candidate, you belong to the Wardens until death, pretty much.

I'm giggling over here considering bringing out a slide rule and trying to calculate a "normal" survival rate for a secret and highly deadly ceremony.
"Let's see...two, carry the inherent horror and fear.  Subtract sense.  Add in any need for vengeance and/or wrath...hmmm."
I can't resist the answer of "42"

Modifié par Recidiva, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:53 .