373 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Recidiva wrote...

Walk out of Orzammar and begin a recruitment campaign based on "Drink darkspawn blood!  Save your mother and wife and daughter from THIS! (flash picture of Broodmother)" Now THAT would produce tons of willing participants.

Are you sure asking people to drink darkspawn blood while in the same breath you tell them eating darkspawn flesh turns them into THIS ... would be very sensible advertising campaign? I'd rather expect people to stab you right there because hey, for all they know *you* can turn into THIS any minute, having the taint in you already 

[syllogi]

I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about Grey Wardens, and need to read the Calling. Genevieve ABSOLUTELY held the Grey Wardens under her command to a strict standard of conduct, and there was no "badass, paramilitary, cutthroat, do ANYTHING to get the job done" nonsense being promoted.



Duncan was originally a cutpurse (much like a certain recruit who would later try to steal from him), but through the events of the Calling, and the examples of the Grey Wardens around him, he became an honorable man.



I do think that Duncan might have recruited Loghain at some point, even if he had known all of the atrocities he had committed, but I do NOT think that Duncan would have denied Alistair his vengeance at the Landsmeet. This was Alistair's first act as King, and he had to take action to prevent further rebellion and backstabbing by Loghain and Anora. Riordan made the suggestion with the knowledge of how the Arch Demon needed to be killed, but in the larger picture, it was more likely to be a disaster to let Loghain live. Maybe I'm wrong, it's not my world or characters, but from everything I've seen of Duncan, he would not have been that thickheaded if he had all the information.

[Axterix]

Recidiva wrote...

How you don't walk out of Orzammar and begin a recruitment campaign based on "Drink darkspawn blood!  Save your mother and wife and daughter from THIS! (flash picture of Broodmother)" wouldn't produce tons of willing participants.

Well, you can't at that point.  You don't know the ritual.  And even if you did, you are missing ingredients.

However, that's during a time of Blight.  Blights come and then they go.  Inbetween, there's time.  Lots of time.  400 years the last time around.  During those times, I reckon warden recruitment drops down.  And it is for those times that they worry.

There's also a question of why exactly wardens get recruited.  What are they really looking for.  Basically, whatever our character is, yeah, we get.  And we get a petty thief along with us so he can drink and
die, and a knight so he can chicken out and be killed.  Good for game reasons, okay. 

But how many candidates are there out there that the Wardens really want?  If you look at the names on the Warden Keep in Fereldan, for example, it isn't a long list.  Like 10 names?  And that's with 30 year terms of service.  That means, in Fereldan, 1new Warden every 3 years, maybe every 2 if you account for some deaths before the 30 years are up.  Non-blight time, of course.

I don't think they are necessarily worried about quantity of recruits, but rather the quality.  The potential to fight well.  Some mental things to back that up.  And maybe some physical or mental thing they look for that means 42% of potential candidates survive, instead of 1 out of 100.

Now, recruitment reasons and number of volunteers aside, how about the non-wardens?  How will they react?  Will it get them kicked out of countries?  Will it lead to peasant mobs descending with pitchforks and torches?  Will leaders not let them in, because of a fear of the taint being contagious?  Will it be deemed blood magic, and the templars decide to erradicate the Wardens?  Or just stop heeding the call...and stop mages from helping as well, lest they be corroupted.  And so on.

It is important for Wardens to have a presence anywhere a Blight could happen.  The sooner they can deal with it, the less harm is done.  And to be able to smash the Blight quickly, they need people on their side.

Those are the things I think they really fear.  That what almost happened here, Wardens hunted, would happen elsewhere.  And here, part of the reason you were able to stop it is because there was a Blight.  If there wasn't one and you got banned from the country, well, that's happened before.

The reality is bad enough to justify what's being done, there's no need to hide it.  But if you're looking for real glory or real heroism, you can't trick your way into it.

We don't kow that, actually.  They feel they do have good reason to hide it.  They don't go into the specifics of that reason.

Mind you, I do think they could say that there is a final trial to
enter and only 42% survive.  As long as they don't give any details, it
should keep the pitchfork armed mobs at bay. 

But that is based on assumptions I'm making.  I do not know why exactly they feel the need to hide it.  I do not know if they were forthright at one point in the past and it turned out very badly.

Modifié par Axterix, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[Recidiva]

tmp7704 wrote...
Are you sure asking people to drink darkspawn blood while in the same breath you tell them eating darkspawn flesh turns them into THIS ... would be very sensible advertising campaign? I'd rather expect people to stab you right there because hey, for all they know *you* can turn into THIS any minute, having the taint in you already 

Unless they've got some other bright idea, yeah.  No, I'm not sure, but I'd like to give it a try.  I couldn't and wouldn't condone inducting people into the Grey Wardens using Duncan's methods if I were to continue leadership.

Drinking the blood in the ritual makes you a Grey Warden.  Eating darkspawn flesh just makes you like Ruck.  Becoming a broodmother is a bit more...invasive.

Modifié par Recidiva, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:58 .

[Recidiva]

Axterix wrote...
Well, you can't at that point.  You don't know the ritual.  And even if you did, you are missing ingredients.

However, that's during a time of Blight.  Blights come and then they go.  Inbetween, there's time.  Lots of time.  400 years the last time around.  During those times, I reckon warden recruitment drops down.  And it is for those times that they worry.

There's also a question of why exactly wardens get recruited.  What are they really looking for.  Basically, whatever our character is, yeah, we get.  And we get a petty thief along with us so he can drink and
die, and a knight so he can chicken out and be killed.  Good for game reasons, okay. 

But how many candidates are there out there that the Wardens really want?  If you look at the names on the Warden Keep in Fereldan, for example, it isn't a long list.  Like 10 names?  And that's with 30 year terms of service.  That means, in Fereldan, 1new Warden every 3 years, maybe every 2 if you account for some deaths before the 30 years are up.  Non-blight time, of course.

I don't think they are necessarily worried about quantity of recruits, but rather the quality.  The potential to fight well.  Some mental things to back that up.  And maybe some physical or mental thing they look for that means 42% of potential candidates survive, instead of 1 out of 100.

Now, recruitment reasons and number of volunteers aside, how about the non-wardens?  How will they react?  Will it get them kicked out of countries?  Will it lead to peasant mobs descending with pitchforks and torches?  Will leaders not let them in, because of a fear of the taint being contagious?  Will it be deemed blood magic, and the templars decide to erradicate the Wardens?  Or just stop heeding the call...and stop mages from helping as well, lest they be corroupted.  And so on.

It is important for Wardens to have a presence anywhere a Blight could happen.  The sooner they can deal with it, the less harm is done.  And to be able to smash the Blight quickly, they need people on their side.

Those are the things I think they really fear.  That what almost happened here, Wardens hunted, would happen elsewhere.  And here, part of the reason you were able to stop it is because there was a Blight.  If there wasn't one and you got banned from the country, well, that's happened before.

We don't kow that, actually.  They feel they do have good reason to hide it.  They don't go into the specifics of that reason.

Mind you, I do think they could say that there is a final trial to
enter and only 42% survive.  As long as they don't give any details, it
should keep the pitchfork armed mobs at bay. 

But that is based on assumptions I'm making.  I do not know why exactly they feel the need to hide it.  I do not know if they were forthright at one point in the past and it turned out very badly.

No, you can't do the Orzammar induction then, but you could rally support based on what you learned about how darkspawn reproduce.  Start a waiting list.  Get a think tank of mages going on "some other solution"

I don't accept the status quo as the only way to do things, so if it were my reality, those are just the things I'd like to try.  Maybe have a seance with Wynne's spirit, ask that spirit to bring a bunch of other spirit friends and then possess all the bodies of dead darkspawn and take the final blow and tah dah!  Free spirit that was already dead and no archdemon.  Lots of possibilities...IF everyone actually knew what was going on and was looking for a solution.

The list on the Warden's Keep was awesome.  I love "Jason sans les Argonauts"

I do see your point, and I get why it was the way it was, I'm just saying if I actually had full rein of what was going to happen in the future, there'd be a bit less hiding of consequences and a bit more cooperation regarding mitigating them.

I'm certainly not going to think that what he/they did was ideal or even reasonable.  Choices made out of necessity or fear in the past don't make them the best choices for the future.

[KCFender]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Allistair takes the darkspawn seriously, Loghain doesn't.[/quote]

That's not what I see on the Landsmeet. I see one senile old general who thinks he is doing what's best for Ferelden, and a young prince who simply wants him dead for revenge's sake. Alistair has a choice: add a new soldier to the ranks, or kill him. Alistair demands Loghain's death. I hardly see it as benefitting our cause to fight the Blight to have one of Ferelden's greatest generals executed. Why not give let him fight and redeem himself in battle?

[quote]Allistair respects the Grey Wardens, Loghain tries to destroy them.[/quote]
True, but so what? In the end, Loghain is willing to become a Grey Warden himself, sentencing himself to a grizzly death.

[quote]Allistair helps you trought the game, Loghain is trying to kill you.[/quote]
Get over it?

[quote]Allistair is a normal person, Loghain is just playin loco.[/quote]
Normal people and psychos alike can fight Darkspawn.

[quote]Allistair has morals, Loghain has...something I guess.[/quote]
Moral people and immoral people alike can fight Darkspawn. The Grey Warden really don't care about individual's morality when they recruit people, as is made apparent throughout the game.

[quote]Allistair hasn't made any tactical or logical bluders, Loghain just keeps piling them onto a mountain.[/quote]
Oh-Em-Gee! How awesome is Alistair that he's never made a tactical mistake? Oh! I forgot! He's spent his ENTIRE life avoiding any responsibility! What a hero! What a tactician!

[quote]Allistair hasn't betrayed anyone, Logain betrayed pretty much everyone.[/quote]
Alistair never had an opportunity, due to his overt meekness, to betray anyone.
Except one person: ME. He appoints ME as defacto commander of the Grey Wardens, only to then later demand that I kill Loghain instead of making Loghain a Grey Warden.
If I don't do as Alistair says, he'll leave, leaving me with one less soldier. I considered that an act of betrayal. He leaves me, just like Loghain leaves Duncan and Cailan: because he's too self-absorbed in his own feelings and platitudes of what is "just" instead of thinking about solely how best to kill Darkspawn.

[quote]B.t.w. - Rhodian is an old coot, probably senile, who doesn't even have first-hand experience of Loghains s***.[/quote]
He knows Loghain was responsible for the deaths of Grey Wardens and Rhodian was personally put through more anguish from Loghain's actions than ANY member of your party, Alistair included. But he doesn't care about that. He sees another potential soldier for the ranks, and acts accordingly. THAT'S how a Warden should act.

At the Landsmeet, Alistair goes from being a weak, timid, virgin who does everything he can to not make a decision, into a royal brat whose only decisive nature amounts to killing a man he personally hates. Bravo. What a hero.

[/quote]

[Gilded Age]

KCFender wrote...

That's not what I see on the Landsmeet. I see one senile old general ...  I hardly see it as benefitting our cause to fight the Blight to have one of Ferelden's greatest generals executed. Why not give let him fight and redeem himself in battle?

How is a delusional, senile, paranoid general whose best military days are long behind him, how is this man a great boon to your cause...?  I always kill him because why even bother with letting him redeem himself?  Who cares?  In the end, I'd rather Loghain dead and done, with NO possibility of him becoming even more a spanner in the works, than patting him on the back... "Oh great job inciting a civil war, trying to kill me and, yes, incidentally, running the whole country into the ground; how about some awesome redemption for you now, you've earned it, tiger!" 

He just doesn't deserve the effort, in my honest opinion.

Modifié par Gilded Age, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Recidiva wrote...

Aaaaand...they don't know that you have to drink darkspawn blood to join.  And how would they know?  That's right!  They won't.  They just think it's a bunch of patriotic folks.  And why won't they find out?  Because Duncan will kill you if you try to leave and possibly tell anyone.

What does tha matter? It doesn't.

The fact is that you're allowing a moron, murderer, a man who doomed his country, betrayd his king and sabotaged the Grey Wardens to join that prestige organization and havea honourable place in history.
Pretty much everyone holds the Grey Wardens in high esteem and considers becoming a grey warden a great honor. This is a indesputable fact.

Duncan didn't kill Jory because it was safer to do so rather than
disarm him.  He killed him because it was Warden policy to do so.

No, actually when you talk to Duncan about Jory, he sez that Jory gave him no options when he puled hte blade.

I'd say being picked to be a Warden is not an honor.  After all,
tournament winner, petty thief, thug/murderer, falsely accused exiled
noble, noble on the run from noble politics, dalish infected with the
taint, mage caught between templars and the Circle possibly helping a
mage escape the tower, and the inner city elf retelling of Braveheart.

I'm taking about apperances and peoples thought.
It is irrelevant what I, you or the PC thniks. The truth is that the people consider it a honor and admitting Loghain will be seen as honoring him. Truth is that Loghain will be let off the hook too easily if you let him join, from a historical perspective.

Also, dont' be too literal. Duncan said they will take anyone, but that doesn't mena REALLY anyone. Figure of speech.

Now, you're welcome to ignore your own experience of how the Wardens
operate. As Flemeth said, we believe what we want to believe...

A statement you just convincingly proved. The irony....

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:40 .

[KCFender]

ReubenLiew wrote...

I guess all that tear-jerking and oaths of vengeance on Arl Howe could be construed as a hissy-fit too, right?
Damn that makes me feel bad for killing Howe. Shame on me, for shaaame.

Yet, you don't kill Arl Howe for vengeance. You kill Arl Howe because you have to, because your job as a Grey Warden just happens to lay you down that path. If it didn't, then perhaps my character would NOT have killed Arl Howe and would not have had his vengeance. And that'd have just been too bad, but small potatoes either way.

Everyone seems to be arguing that Loghain is just too impossibly evil to consider being the better alternative to Alistair. But at the Landsmeet, who is Loghain at the end? You effectively diminish all authority Loghain has, and all the capacity he has for evil. When you have the choice to kill Loghain or recruit him, he is not a tyrant anymore. He is nothing more, politically, than a peasant - and a capable soldier. You can either recruit him as such, or kill him to satisfy your personal sense of justice. The darkspawn are certainly not going to care if Loghain is executed. That's just one less sword for them to worry about.

Of course, Alistair is incapable of letting go of his hate, so it ends up being a trade-off anyways. But it shouldn't. And it wouldn't, IF Alistair was capable of acting like a true Warden should. I'd love to have both Alistair and Loghain on my team. But, sadly, ONE of them won't let that happen. And so, he is the one that goes.

[KCFender]

Gilded Age wrote...

KCFender wrote...

That's not what I see on the Landsmeet. I see one senile old general ...  I hardly see it as benefitting our cause to fight the Blight to have one of Ferelden's greatest generals executed. Why not give let him fight and redeem himself in battle?

How is a delusional, senile, paranoid general whose best military days are long behind him, how is this man a great boon to your cause...?  I always kill him because why even bother with letting him redeem himself?  Who cares?  In the end, I'd rather Loghain dead and done, with NO possibility of him becoming even more a spanner in the works, than patting him on the back... "Oh great job inciting a civil war, trying to kill me and, yes, incidentally, running the whole country into the ground; how about some awesome redemption for you now, you've earned it, tiger!" 

He just doesn't deserve the effort, in my honest opinion.

Thank you. That's a perfectly good argument for killing Loghain, the only one I've really seen thus far. Everyone else just says he's too "evil". That's not an argument as far as I'm concerned, because his "evilness" doesn't have any bearing on his ability to chop off Darkspawn heads.
But to simply say "He isn't worth the effort", because you don't think he would be any bit helpful. Well, that's your opinion, it's certainly viable, and I won't argue with it. To kill Loghain instead of conscripting his because you think he is "evil"... well, I think that is a bit hypocritical and certainly not all that noble or productive. But to kill him because you don't think he would be useful... that makes more sense to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KCFender wrote...
That's not what I see on the Landsmeet. I see one senile old general who thinks he is doing what's best for Ferelden, and a young prince who simply wants him dead for revenge's sake. Alistair has a choice: add a new soldier to the ranks, or kill him. Alistair demands Loghain's death. I hardly see it as benefitting our cause to fight the Blight to have one of Ferelden's greatest generals executed. Why not give let him fight and redeem himself in battle?

Your logic circuits are flawed fellow human. You connect taking darkspawn seriously and sparing Loghain when such link does not exist.
For any practical reason you came come up with to spare Loghain, I can come up with several to kill him. Killing Loghain can be a benefit to fighting hte blight, a benefit to the cause. If you cannot see why or how, then you need to study some more history and cultural mechanics.

Alistair never had an opportunity, due to his overt meekness, to betray anyone.
Except one person: ME. He appoints ME as defacto commander of the Grey Wardens, only to then later demand that I kill Loghain instead of making Loghain a Grey Warden.
If I don't do as Alistair says, he'll leave, leaving me with one less soldier. I considered that an act of betrayal. He leaves me, just like Loghain leaves Duncan and Cailan: because he's too self-absorbed in his own feelings and platitudes of what is "just" instead of thinking about solely how best to kill Darkspawn.

LOL...Man, this is funny. The irony..the hypocisy.
With that attitude, I cna't fanthom how ANYONE would want to follow you. I'm surprised hte dog hasn't abandoned you, being the smart hound that he is.

Feeeling betrayed is a now an act of betrayl? Oh, if only your reasoning has any sense behind it. You biggest flaw here is your last sentance tough - that the best way to kill darskpawn is following your every order without questioning and sparing Loghain. Do call me when you comprehend exactly why that is a flaw. Don't strain yourself from thinking tough...

He knows Loghain was responsible for the deaths of Grey Wardens and Rhodian was personally put through more anguish from Loghain's actions than ANY member of your party, Alistair included. But he doesn't care about that. He sees another potential soldier for the ranks, and acts accordingly. THAT'S how a Warden should act.

Except that hte Calling shows wardens acting differently. Except that Rhodian may very well be crazy or not thinking clearly.
Except that the tortures were never mentioned as to what they were. So to say that he was put trough more anguish than anyone else is sheer bollocks. Physical pain passes. Emotional pain is far more difficult to heal.

At the Landsmeet, Alistair goes from being a weak, timid, virgin who does everything he can to not make a decision, into a royal brat whose only decisive nature amounts to killing a man he personally hates. Bravo. What a hero.

To killing a man who f**** up the countrm, broke laws and deserved torture. Killing him is letting him off easy. A king should set an example by folling laws. By law, treason is punished by death.

[Recidiva]

What does tha matter? It doesn't.

The fact is that you're allowing a moron, murderer, a man who doomed his country, betrayd his king and sabotaged the Grey Wardens to join that prestige organization and havea honourable place in history.
Pretty much everyone holds the Grey Wardens in high esteem and considers becoming a grey warden a great honor. This is a indesputable fact.

No, actually when you talk to Duncan about Jory, he sez that Jory gave him no options when he puled hte blade.

I'm taking about apperances and peoples thought.
It is irrelevant what I, you or the PC thniks. The truth is that the people consider it a honor and admitting Loghain will be seen as honoring him. Truth is that Loghain will be let off the hook too easily if you let him join, from a historical perspective.

Also, dont' be too literal. Duncan said they will take anyone, but that doesn't mena REALLY anyone. Figure of speech.

Yes.  Consent and disclosure matter.  They always matter.  To think they're irrelevant and to think that lying to people and concealing things ultimately result in the greatest good is not a view I can hold, not with my experience in my life.  And I'm a really good liar, I speak from personal experience of how it turns out when you lie and manipulate rather than are straight up and straight forward.

This game forces you to lie at times to get the best outcome.  That's fine for what it is, but I can't transfer that to reality in any way and cast Duncan in any light other than the quintessential Grey archetype.  He's capable of good, in that he cares for his recruits and the Grey Wardens, and the ultimate fate of humanity.  He's capable of evil, he demonstrates that in cold blooded murder, nondisclosure of the Joiningl and justifying those things as necessity, when they're not.  

There's no possible way to be a decent friend, parent, spouse or human being if you operate that way.   And my motivation at least in the game is to save people and allow them to be decent friends, parents, spouses and human beings at the end of it all.  Myself included.

You can say that the Blight makes it a necessity, I agree to that point, but that doesn't make it good or right it makes it Duncan's choice.  Not mine.

It's not "good."  It's just the character not being creative enough to see that he has another choice, which I accept as a reason for lying, cheating or stealing, which is what he does.  He does it for HIS idea of what "the ultimate good" is.  But in my opinion he breaks too many eggs to make his omelet and could do with a more efficient hand and a more honest approach.

You want to tell Ser Jory's son that his father was a "righteous martyr" to his face, go for it.  I wouldn't dare.  I know better.

[Recidiva]

Thank you. That's a perfectly good argument for killing Loghain, the only one I've really seen thus far. Everyone else just says he's too "evil". That's not an argument as far as I'm concerned, because his "evilness" doesn't have any bearing on his ability to chop off Darkspawn heads.
But to simply say "He isn't worth the effort", because you don't think he would be any bit helpful. Well, that's your opinion, it's certainly viable, and I won't argue with it. To kill Loghain instead of conscripting his because you think he is "evil"... well, I think that is a bit hypocritical and certainly not all that noble or productive. But to kill him because you don't think he would be useful... that makes more sense to me.

Mine is just that Loghain has no honor and can't be trusted.  Team combat requires trust.  Simple. 

Him being a great strategist or tactician is a drawback if I can't take my eyes off him for a moment for fear of him stabbing me in a tender spot while he applies his strategy and tactics against my purpose.

[Taerda]

The plot hole I see with claiming Loghain is that according to Rhiordan someone stole Duncan's cache of Arch-demon blood from the warehouse (at least that is what he claims before the Landsmeet) so if this essential ingredient is missing, just how are you supposed to complete the joining. Based on what my character knows at that moment of time... Loghain can't be joined due to that simple fact.



And KCFender ... my Human Noble swore a promise of vengeance upon Howe ... he had to die, because of vengeance.



@TeenZombie: Genevieve might have ran her charges that way, yet Drysden did not ... as I see it, there are two main factions within the Wardens, one supporting nuetrality, the other not.

[Gilded Age]

KCFender wrote...
But to simply say "He isn't worth the effort", because you don't think he would be any bit helpful. Well, that's your opinion, it's certainly viable, and I won't argue with it. To kill Loghain instead of conscripting his because you think he is "evil"... well, I think that is a bit hypocritical and certainly not all that noble or productive. But to kill him because you don't think he would be useful... that makes more sense to me.

Oh, that's definitely my opinion only.  I didn't mean it to be an attack on your thought process.  Just my random thoughts, LOL.  It's just...I get to Landsmeet and then, you know, I already have party tank, I don't really trust him, I don't really need him as a member of the crew.  I had a female human PC who was hellbent on being Queen and revenging herself on Loghain's busom buddy, Howe.  He seemed neither useful to me then, immediately, or in the future, when he could possibly have challenged my PC's rule "for the good of Ferelden", maybe.  Better to kill him then, and end the threat, rather than string him along and possibly pay for it later, you know?

I know you like him, though, and I can see how others would want to save him.  Personally...it was the lack of loyalty towards Cailan that got me (would he have shown my PC the same loyalty...?!) and just, it seemed like too much of a political risk, letting him live.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KCFender wrote...
Yet, you don't kill Arl Howe for vengeance. You kill Arl Howe because you have to, because your job as a Grey Warden just happens to lay you down that path. If it didn't, then perhaps my character would NOT have killed Arl Howe and would not have had his vengeance.

You mean if Earl Hows estate wasn't an acessible location in-game? That's a totaly silly "what if" to waste time on.

Everyone seems to be arguing that Loghain is just too impossibly evil to consider being the better alternative to Alistair. But at the Landsmeet, who is Loghain at the end? You effectively diminish all authority Loghain has, and all the capacity he has for evil. When you have the choice to kill Loghain or recruit him, he is not a tyrant anymore. He is nothing more, politically, than a peasant - and a capable soldier. You can either recruit him as such, or kill him to satisfy your personal sense of justice. The darkspawn are certainly not going to care if Loghain is executed. That's just one less sword for them to worry about.

Wrong. He stil lhas his influence, connections and people who will follow him. Not that many, true, but enough to still be abel to cause a mess. After all, he was a general and a hero, and a lot of soldiers would be inclined to follow him, especially before the word of the Landmeet gets to spread and simmer around.
Even if you were to throw him in jail, he could still be dangeround from there. He had supporters who followed him because he lied to them, but he also had those taht conspired with him for power or money.
No, death is the only way to guarantee that he won't be making any more trouble for you and Ferelden.

Of course, Alistair is incapable of letting go of his hate, so it ends up being a trade-off anyways. But it shouldn't. And it wouldn't, IF Alistair was capable of acting like a true Warden should.

Allistair IS acting like a true warden. And a true king. And a practical person.
That's the point.

[Recidiva]

I know you like him, though, and I can see how others would want to save him.  Personally...it was the lack of loyalty towards Cailan that got me (would he have shown my PC the same loyalty...?!) and just, it seemed like too much of a political risk, letting him live.

Right.  You sat in on the meeting, you saw him argue with Cailan, but you didn't see him say "I will not back you up, sire, I'm taking my men out of this Blight hole and taking my stand elsewhere."  That would have been tactical or honorable or at least stating an intention and taking a stand.

He just stared at the camera in that "Oh, you're the bad guy" way.

Duncan thought they would prevail with the plan at hand, and Duncan wasn't a strategic fool.  Had Loghain kept his word and his part of the strategic bargain...well...there wouldn't have been a game, but...you know what I mean.

I don't buy for a moment the way that his character was portrayed, that he believed they would lose.  That was his justification.  Plot probe shows that some of his men got the order to leave BEFORE the beacon was lit.  He wasn't honorable, he wasn't loyal to Ferelden or to his troops.  He was a paranoid egotistical maniac who didn't trust any foreign influence on "his" soil, including Grey Wardens.  He wanted them all eliminated and that's how he did it.  It was deliberately wiping out all political competition in one bloody swoop.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Recidiva wrote...
Yes.  Consent and disclosure matter.  They always matter.  To think they're irrelevant and to think that lying to people and concealing things ultimately result in the greatest good is not a view I can hold, not with my experience in my life.  And I'm a really good liar, I speak from personal experience of how it turns out when you lie and manipulate rather than are straight up and straight forward.

Dear Lord Allmihgt,y grant me strangth....*sigh*

Look, apples and oranges much? You dont' even get what I'm getting at apprantly. Let me try this again.

Bociming a Grey Warden is considered a honor in the world of Thedas. That is the realtiy of the world and the cultures there. It may not be a honoroubale position to you. Again, you're right ot think that, but that's beside the point.

The point is that allowing Loghain to join the Grey Warens is bestowing him an honour, a place in history that he doesn't deserve. Remeber, it's not about what you think - it's what about almsot everyone in ferelden does.

Loghain doesn't deserve that position, especially not after he tried to destroy the GW's. He deserves to be remebered by history as a traitor that he was.

Is being knighted or pronounced an count/duke a honor? Some may not see it as such, but the fact is that it WAS considered a honor. Same here. Perceptions and culture.

This game forces you to lie at times to get the best outcome.  That's fine for what it is, but I can't transfer that to reality in any way and cast Duncan in any light other than the quintessential Grey archetype.  He's capable of good, in that he cares for his recruits and the Grey Wardens, and the ultimate fate of humanity.  He's capable of evil, he demonstrates that in cold blooded murder, nondisclosure of the Joiningl and justifying those things as necessity, when they're not.

What cold blooded murder? Jory drew a blade.

Besides, everyone knew the Joining would be dangerous, maybe even fatal and that you become a warden for life. He could have bailed beforethe joining, but he didn't.
Taking a sip from that cup is no more fatal than charging into battle. You take your chances either way.

Ducan isn't a shininh knight on a white horse, but he isn't  as dark as you make him out to be either.

[Recidiva]

Ducan isn't a shininh knight on a white horse, but he isn't  as dark as you make him out to be either.

I never claimed he was solely dark or evil.  I said he was Gray and just stated my case as to why I thought that.  Some of his actions are noble and some of them, clearly based on individual interpretation, are not.  The human noble story for me was particularly wrenching considering he conscripted me while my father was bleeding to death, denying my father any hope of me reclaiming my house and only allowing me revenge.  Add on top of that that HE knew and I did not, that there'd be no hope of coming back and having any sort of normal life or children.  He could have protected me and gotten me out without conscripting me.  I did also know my father's express wish was that I NOT go to the Grey Wardens, and Duncan literally twisted a dying man's arm to make it happen.  And if given my personal choice, I probably would have tried to kill Duncan myself if I hadn't loved my father and tried to ease his final moments.

It's an interesting conversation, but certainly not worth contention or...*gasp* repeating ourselves.  That's a sin. 

[wlderotter]

Recidiva wrote...

Ducan isn't a shininh knight on a white horse, but he isn't  as dark as you make him out to be either.

I never claimed he was solely dark or evil.  I said he was Gray and just stated my case as to why I thought that.  Some of his actions are noble and some of them, clearly based on individual interpretation, are not.  The human noble story for me was particularly wrenching considering he conscripted me while my father was bleeding to death, denying my father any hope of me reclaiming my house and only allowing me revenge.  Add on top of that that HE knew and I did not, that there'd be no hope of coming back and having any sort of normal life or children.  He could have protected me and gotten me out without conscripting me.  I did also know my father's express wish was that I NOT go to the Grey Wardens, and Duncan literally twisted a dying man's arm to make it happen.  And if given my personal choice, I probably would have tried to kill Duncan myself if I hadn't loved my father and tried to ease his final moments.

It's an interesting conversation, but certainly not worth contention or...*gasp* repeating ourselves.  That's a sin. 

how about Duncan's actions in the city Elf origin where he lends you his sword so that you can go rescue the girls - knowing this will probably lead to your having to leave the alienage and the "genocide" that follows?

[Relshar]

Loghain dies like a dog with each play through. And when I played through my female human noble, I not only kill Howe, Loghain but I also become queen.

[Recidiva]

wlderotter wrote...

how about Duncan's actions in the city Elf origin where he lends you his sword so that you can go rescue the girls - knowing this will probably lead to your having to leave the alienage and the "genocide" that follows?

Duncan's pretty much a hero in that starting story.  Respectful to elves and rescues you.  Keep in mind, that starting story played as a female doesn't have him lending me his sword.   I just gritted my teeth, leaned toward the monitor and KILLED EVERYONE.  I was so godawful enraged and busy killing every human in sight that I hardly noticed him.

So there, he's a hero.  Certainly looked better than all the other humans.  Alive-ey-er too.  But by the time he interrupted my arrest, I was ready to kill whoever tried to arrest me too.  Ready to go down in a dual-wielding fountain of blood.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Regarding the human noble story - your brother Fergus is still alive, so the family name continues. Not that the family name is really THAT important. I agree that asking for your fathers permission like that was...not nice.

Then again, your father was dying anyway, so why would he (or you) need a permission?



He also gives his weapons to you in the CityElf story regardles if you're male of female - if you're female he's giving you it by proxy. Your cousin has them.

[Drunkencelt]

Epic and almost as big as Annora's.