373 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Spotty record? Hes a hero of the revolution for gods sake, and probably Fereldens greatest tactician.



I don't get why there is an obsession with executing him, let him die fighting the darkspawn.

[Kohaku]

After watching it the whole situation on Youtube, I know I'll never pick Loghain as an ally. No matter how silly Alistair sounded, he seriously had a point. With all the crap you've gone though, to give Loghain the honor of becoming a Gray Warden after screwing us all over time and time again is too much to handle. I’d honestly rather see Alisitair die to the Arch Demon than to make Loghain a hero all over again.

[tmp7704]

Oh i realize that. But considering the players' only experience with his "tactical genius" is the treacherous withdrawal which leads to defeat at Ostragar, and then his defeat in straight combat during the Landsmeet twice, it appears the man simply doesn't live up to his legend (anymore) And it certainly seems to be very naive to believe just turning him into Grey Warden would be enough of safety check to actually turn him into a loyal asset.

[Herr Uhl]

The fault is that he sees the grey wardens as something honorable, I see them as something that should kill archdemons, not walk around in shining armor. Got a Cailan vibe from Alastair.



Personal problems and glory are second to stopping the blight.

[Count Viceroy]

Yes, as mentioned in Wardens keep for instance, the wardens don't forbit blood magic, anything it takes to win.

I mean you can walk into red cliffe village without presenting yourself. Tell them to **** off and die. Come back later and wake up a half dead and  pissed off Bann Teagan and tell him you're a grey warden and he's like oh never mind my entire village you abandoned to a zombie horde, you have more important things to worry about. Grey wardens are certainly not knights with ideals and honor to uphold.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 02:54 .

[syllogi]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Actually, he's a decorated war hero and a tactical genious. I know he's not presented as such to the player. But if you go into the codex and books, it's all there.

He kind of lost that cachet when he retreated at Ostagar and let his king die.  Also, slavery, murder, poisoning, torture, attempted assassination, etc.  But why let that get in the way of Loghain-apologist-logic? 

I have no problem with someone saying they roleplayed an evil character who was annoyed by Alistair and chose Loghain.  But if you're roleplaying a good character and claim that Loghain "deserved" redemption, or that Alistair was wrong for wanting him dead instead of a Grey Warden, well, that's on the level with IRL women who write to serial killers in jail and marry them. 

[tmp7704]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Spotty record? Hes a hero of the revolution for gods sake, and probably Fereldens greatest tactician.

I don't get why there is an obsession with executing him, let him die fighting the darkspawn.

Spotty record would be that part when he puts his obsessions before his sworn duty* and lets the Ferelden army perish because he didn't get the things his way. Great tactic, indeed.

As for wanting to execute him, it's simple at least when coming from city elf origin. The man is responsible for slaver business which if not stopped would lead to eradication of everyone the PC could consider their family and kin. Other humans died for similar crimes with no chance given to "redeem" themselves, and it's only fitting for Loghain to get the same.

*) ironically enough this is very similar to Alistair's hissyfit... just on much bigger scale 

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:03 .

[Herr Uhl]

It is not about "deserving" redemption, there is simply nothing to be gained by killing him except personal revenge. As I said before, let him die doing something useful instead.

[Count Viceroy]

Having Alistair marry Anora and sacrifising Loghain to the dragon. Player survive. Everybody wins

[cooldevo]

Loghain is a great candidate for a Grey Warden. He has the skills and experience to back up what he does. And in a playthrough I saved him, and then took the deal with Morrigan. He lives and actually heads up recruiting new grey wardens. Morals and moral implications be thrown out the window.  I'm not here to be a moral compass to the world, just to stop the Blight at any cost.

It's not just about doing what is "good" in standard eyes. If you play as a "good" Grey Warden it means something very different. As has already been said above. It's about getting the best of the best regardless of their past and stopping the Blight. Look at half the origin stories, the PC is screwed up pretty badly as well... in several of them you are about to be executed yourself for "crimes" and Duncan saves you. It's about having the right people do to the job to end the Blight, nothing else matters.

My choosing to allow him an honorable death still doesn't compare to the fact that he is a great asset for fighting the Blight. He only gets the chance because he is the right man for the job. If he were a commoner with no way of aiding the Grey Wardens, then he would would have been executed without my intervention because he wouldn't be what I need. And a Grey Warden isn't supposed to get tied into politics, thus if they weren't potential candidate I would leave them be to face the music.

Modifié par cooldevo, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:08 .

[Count Viceroy]

City elf murdered the arl of denerims son, dwarf noble and commoner are exiles, justified crimes or not they are hardly upstanding citizens. Right man for the job, backround be damned.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:11 .

[tmp7704]

Tbh as much as i like the whole game and the individual origins, Duncan's way to get his recruits strikes me as desperate scrapping the barrel, than anything else. There is very little about number of candidates that make them "right men for the job" once the player's ego is removed from the picture. Of course this is mostly the game being forced to somehow tie the player into the events but it can still create a weak first impression.

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:17 .

[Count Viceroy]

Well. You display great martial prowess and the ability to make things happen, no matter how gruesome, Ie perfect grey wardens except for maybe the dalish one where he basically takes you along because you're already tainted, and with the blight comming and the low number of grey wardens in ferelden I imagine his recruiting standards aren't exactly high either. 

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[Kohaku]

tmp7704 wrote...

Tbh as much as i like the whole game and the individual origins, Duncan's way to get his recruits strikes me as desperate scrapping the barrel, than anything else. There is very little about number of candidates that make them "right men for the job" once the player's ego is removed from the picture.

Pretty much. Let's be honest here people, It's a spring board to start a story. I'm sure even if the PC was a Demon from the Nine Hells, if he happened to come across Duncan in passing he'd probably be recruited as a Gray Warden. For some reason I don't think there are too many "standards" to be a Gray Wardens.

[Creep_Show1334]

tmp7704 wrote...

Tbh as much as i like the whole game and the individual origins, Duncan's way to get his recruits strikes me as desperate scrapping the barrel, than anything else. There is very little about number of candidates that make them "right men for the job" once the player's ego is removed from the picture.

Well, the human noble is considered a good candidate because you're trained in battle, and come from a family the game seems to suggest is all about being good fighters. Hell, even your mother picks up a bow and helps you rather efficiently. I seem to remember Duncan mentioning something along the lines that both you and that guard guy who he was looking at displayed traits worthy of a Warden, though I can't remember if those traits were ever explained.


Speaking of your family, is there any way in the game to find your brother before the Landsmeet?

[WaRCh1eF]

In my ending Alistair kills Loghain, Anora refuses to marry him, so he rules alone and locks her up in a tower.

Obviously im the one who kills the archdemon because i cant leave Ferelden without a king.

Happy ending for everyone but me and my lovers Leliana and Zevran, lol

[cooldevo]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Well. You display great martial prowess and the ability to make things happen, no matter how gruesome, Ie perfect grey wardens except for maybe the dalish one where he basically takes you along because you're already tainted, and with the blight comming and the low number of grey wardens in ferelden I imagine his recruiting standards aren't exactly high either. 

I don't think it was overtly said, but the Grey Wardens were run out of Fereldan a long time ago.  They are only recently welcomed back, and are in a rebuilding phase when this Blight hits.  At least that's what I got from the Codex entries and the insinuations from conversations.

[Count Viceroy]

tmp7704 wrote...

Speaking of your family, is there any way in the game to find your brother before the Landsmeet?

No.

[Count Viceroy]

cooldevo wrote...
I don't think it was overtly said, but the
Grey Wardens were run out of Fereldan a long time ago.  They are only
recently welcomed back, and are in a rebuilding phase when this Blight
hits.  At least that's what I got from the Codex entries and the
insinuations from conversations.

Which makes it even more likley he'd accept someone of dubious backround. It's not important to him even. As long as you can get the job done, Which is why loghain also fits the bill. And Riordan knows that we might fall before facing the dragon, hence why an extra body would increase the odds of us succeeding. Ofcourse, he couldn't expect Alistair to be a child and throw is oath away.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:29 .

[greengroove]

What happens to Loghain in the ending if you decide to let him undertake Morrigan's ritual?

[Count Viceroy]

He takes being a grey warden very seriously, goes out and recruits more grey wardens.

[Valmy]

Count Viceroy wrote...

If you have them agree to be married however he justs leaves the grey wardens. He'll still be king and if hardened, A good one at that.

That can only happen if he is hardened.  If you do not Harden him he leaves no matter what if you spare Loghain.

Good riddance I say.  My opinion of Alistair went from 100 to 0 after that scene.

[Valmy]

Herr Uhl wrote...

It is not about "deserving" redemption, there is simply nothing to be gained by killing him except personal revenge. As I said before, let him die doing something useful instead.

Yep.  Also Loghain is a great hero, I figured a guy like him deserves a second chance and besides having him along meant both Alistair and I get to live....

[Count Viceroy]

Yes, I always thought of him as somewhat reasonable up until that point. But then again he's about as socially mature as a 15 year old, so him acting childish shouldn't be that suprising.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:40 .

[cooldevo]

Creep_Show1334 wrote...

Speaking of your family, is there any way in the game to find your brother before the Landsmeet?

Doesn't sound like it.  When I ran into him he says he was incapacitated for a couple of weeks and was picked up by Chasind (I think).  He escaped and heard you were a Warden and were leading the charge.  I think that's when he said he came straight to Denerim.  He  was also happy when I told him that I took care of Howe.

Modifié par cooldevo, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:52 .