373 réponses à ce sujet

[Akka le Vil]

cooldevo wrote...

Oh Loghain paid his price.... he is soon to lay down his life to slay the dragon. Everyone deserves a second chance, and if Alistair wasn't so narrow-minded and focused only on revenge it would have worked out. Anora proposed the execution, so at least it wasn't my idea. Anything to stop the Blight. If Alistair can't see that past his revenge to see that I had bigger plans for Loghain to die with at least a little dignity to redeem himself, then he is not fit to be a Grey Warden. Anyone has a possibility to be redeemed, even Loghain.

Funny how you're willing to pardon Loghain despite his colossal crimes, but throw away Alistair while looking down on him for something that isn't even a flaw.
Double standards die hard.

Loghain is the very reason why you have so much work to do against the Darkspawns. Without his treachery, Ostagar would have had a good chance as ending the Blight right from the start. Being hell-bent on recruiting the guy who has been effectively the best ally of the Archdemon until know is not what I would call an intelligent decision. Just some attempt at looking tough "hey look I'm just so ruthless !".

[cooldevo]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Funny how you're willing to pardon Loghain despite his colossal crimes, but throw away Alistair while looking down on him for something that isn't even a flaw.
Double standards die hard.

Loghain is the very reason why you have so much work to do against the Darkspawns. Without his treachery, Ostagar would have had a good chance as ending the Blight right from the start. Being hell-bent on recruiting the guy who has been effectively the best ally of the Archdemon until know is not what I would call an intelligent decision. Just some attempt at looking tough "hey look I'm just so ruthless !".

I didn't force Alistair's hand, he forced mine.  Even the other Warden Riodan (spelling?) said Loghain should be recruited.  What my PC did was in line with what the Wardens do.  Loghain thought he was doing what was right for the country, which is no different than what I did for the Blight.  It's got nothing to do with be tough or ruthless.  It's all about what is good for battling the Blight.  What about his oath to do ANYTHING to stop a Blight?  Where did that go exactly?  Warden's are about sacrifice.  I sacrificed my own petty revenge to stop the Blight.  I wanted Loghain to die as well, but I was able to realize that he would make one heck of a Warden.  Thus Anora suggested Alistair had to be killed so he didn't lead a revolution against the throne as he was a blood line to Maric.  I just didn't talk her out of it, because Alistair gave up Warden status in my eyes when he refused to do his duty.  The threat he made to leave the Wardens was a violation of his oath, thus he no longer had any significant use to me to combat the Blight.

And in that first battle, the Archdemon had not even appeared yet, so it's pretty hard to kill something that isn't there.  Who's to say it would have even emerged in that battle?  Only the warden's knew it was a Blight because they could sense the dragon.  But they didn't seem to be able to convince many people of that... after all it had been hundreds of years since the last Blight.

*Edit:  Fixed a bunch of ambiguous "he's" with actual names*

Modifié par cooldevo, 25 novembre 2009 - 04:10 .

[jeckaldied]

Honestly, Alistair was never "gray" Enough to be an effective Warden, he's never willing to do what it takes to stop the Blight. Duncan knew that sometimes morals need to be damned when stopping a world threatening evil, Riordan knew he Loghain would be much more useful fighting the Blight than being killed.



Being a Grey Warden is not an honor. The Grey Wardens need to make the horrible descisions so that the average armies don't. They damn themselves to the taint so that the average folks can live in peace. It's more of a punishment than anything else, but Alistair has this immature notion of paladins riding white horses kissing babies and only doing nice things.



Loghain's shown he will do whatever it takes to reach his goals, in fact, Loghain imbodies the perfect Grey Warden, a tactician whose willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. The game doesn't really treat Grey Wardens that way sense it's just you and Alistair, but if your listen to Duncan, Riordan, play warden's keep, and read the lore, it's obvious the Grey Wardens aren't nice, they make sacrifices of common folks, they'll do anything it takes to stop the Blight, Loghain is willing to do this, Alistair is not.

[Trelow-LMG]

I guarantee I'd have gone completely ape**** myself.

[Valmy]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Spotty record? Hes a hero of the revolution for gods sake, and probably Fereldens greatest tactician.

I don't get why there is an obsession with executing him, let him die fighting the darkspawn.

Well the former is a good reason to spare him...that and despite all the evil things he did he only did it out of a misguided desire to do what was best for the nation.

But I understand why there is an obsession for executing him.  He did some pretty unspeakably vile things to further his goals.  Even at his best Loghain was pretty ruthless.  Under normal circumstances he surely would have been executed...but under the current circumstances I thought conscription and being sent to fight the Blight was the appropriate option.  That is a death sentence in all but name.  Alistair disagreed with me on that point though.  I do wish he had come around or we could have talked about it later.

[Sarethus]

 Lot of characters have their lines in the sand that the PC cannot cross (without consequences at least.) Wynne in the mage tower insists on sparing the mages, Lelianna will not allow the Urn to be bloodied & Shale will side with Caridan over Branka. This was Alistair's line in the sand and to be fair if I were in his position I would have insisted on Loghain dieing as well (only difference would be I'd have succeeded )

[Akka le Vil]

cooldevo wrote...

I didn't force Alistair's hand, he forced mine.

 
He forced you to let Loghain live ? I doubt it.
You chosed it knowing he was not going to accept it. YOU forced his hand.

Even the other Warden Riodan (spelling?) said Loghain should be recruited.  What my PC did was in line with what the Wardens do.  Loghain thought he was doing what was right for the country, which is no different than what I did for the Blight.

I'm pretty sure than "being right" is quite different from "being criminally wrong". What Loghain did was a huge pile of madness piled with a colossal pile of stupidity, with a gargantuan pile of blindness overall. Yes, it IS quite different than what the Grey Warden do.

It's got nothing to do with be tough or ruthless.  It's all about what is good for battling the Blight.  What about his oath to do ANYTHING to stop a Blight?  Where did that go exactly?  Warden's are about sacrifice.  I sacrificed my own petty revenge to stop the Blight.  I wanted Loghain to die as well, but I was able to realize that he would make one heck of a Warden.

Let me get it straight...

Here is a Grey Warden, going to fight the Blight with what it takes.
"Companions, we need all what we can to fight the Darkspawns. Here's the next step : I'm going to let go a close friend, who has proved he can be trusted time and time again, who has shown his devotion to the struggle against the darkspawns and has helped to assemble the army to fight them. And I'll replace him with a man that took the Darkspawn so seriously and was so devoted to the fight against them that he arranged our forces to be destroyed by them, killed and hunted down the Warden, and handed half of the country to the Blight."
"Wow, boss, that's just so insightful ! Definitely a great plan to help our chances against the Darkspawns !"

Paint me unconvinced.

Thus Anora suggested Alistair had to be killed so he didn't lead a revolution against the throne as he was a blood line to Maric.  I just didn't talk her out of it, because Alistair gave up Warden status in my eyes when he refused to do his duty.  The threat he made to leave the Wardens was a violation of his oath, thus he no longer had any significant use to me to combat the Blight.

Well, so you go out of your way to protect a bastard that helped the Blight at every corner, but don't bother to speak three words that would have prevented a friend to be executed while HE actually fought the Blight it during all this time ?
All this because you betrayed the latter and he didn't like it ?

This just does so much sense.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:21 .

[Herr Uhl]

Leliana will allow you to destroy the ashes if you are sufficiently intimidating.

[Ion515]

I somewhat agree with Jeckaldied. Besides, in that situation at the Landsmeet concerning Alistair and Loghain, it seemed that Alistair was willing to put vengeance above his Grey Warden responsibilities. And although he thought that by killing Loghain would somehow honor Duncan's memory, I think it would have actually smirched the memory of Duncan, simply because Alistair is a Grey Warden, and in that instance, he put his personal needs in front of the needs of the people the Grey Wardens are sworn to protect. And I think that by doing that, Alistair betrayed Duncan somehow.

[marshalleck]

Yeah, the Logain plot doesn't make a lot of sense.

I executed his treasonous ass.Right in front of his daughter, no less. At least he took it like a man, on his feet and without complaint.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:17 .

[Count Viceroy]

Herr Uhl wrote...

if you are sufficiently intimidating.

Like claws and stuff? Tattoos? Roar like a bear?

I can't imagine she'd stay with you afterwards though if you threatened her and then destroying the most holy artifact she could think off.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:17 .

[Akka le Vil]

jeckaldied wrote...

Loghain's shown he will do whatever it takes to reach his goals, in fact, Loghain imbodies the perfect Grey Warden, a tactician whose willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.

Actually, what we see is that Loghain is simply willing to counter-productively sacrifice. Because certainly NONE of his countless crimes actually helped in ANY WAY for anything.

Seriously, I've the feeling that the "dark-fantasy" theme of DAO just let you people go on a rampage labeling of any idiotic evil action as a manly "doing what is needed". Is it a new way to make someone look cooler ? Some kind of power catharsis ?

"hey, this guy sure slaughtered a lot of people in a totally stupid way that served no point and only ended reinforcing his foes and making his position weaker, he's totally what we need for our We'Re Just So Ruthless We Must Be Cool group that will save the world so that the people we've killed can live in peace afterward !"

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:26 .

[Herr Uhl]

You can talk her into staying with an intimidate check, why I don't know, but there it is.



She is just an attention-seeker anyways...

[Gegenlicht]

Loghain is a hero to the common people who don't know jack about what happened at Ostagar above and beyond rumours. He's also the father of Ferelden's potential queen. Disgracing or executing him on the spot is the dumbest move possible, politically speaking.



While the game doesn't address this you'd think anyone with a bit of knowledge of the liberation of Ferelden would be delighted to know the greatest living hero of their day and age is going into battle with them. Of course you know it's not truth. But truth is irrelevant in the face of belief.



Plus, if you want to put Alistair on the throne, keeping him out of the final battle is about the soundest thing you can do. Though other than the argument of keeping Maric's line alive, there really is no reason to put that retarded whiny brat on the throne which I can see. If it was up to me I wouldn't trust Alistair with taking out the trash, much less running a country.

[Count Viceroy]

There's one particular line that you can say to him that certainly rings true. I wouldn't trust you to lead us to lunch.

[tmp7704]

jeckaldied wrote...

but Alistair has this immature notion of paladins riding white horses kissing babies and only doing nice things.

This isn't really true; for example if you handle the Redcliffe situation by killing the child, during the confrontation afterwards Alistair is willing to accept sacrifice of kid's mother and the blood ritual as more preferable route.

He can accept the end justifies the means, but he doesn't believe all means are worth justifying.

[Riona45]

Count Viceroy wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

As a human noble with a high persuade I didn't harden him and I became queen ... when he mentioned the kids being tough I just picked "it won't be from lack of trying" and he said "good point, good thing we got started on that early!" and he was happy about it.

Being a noble is the only way to keep the romance going if you don't harden him.

...Only if you want Alistair to be king in the first place.  If you make Anora queen instead, the romance will continue as well whether the PC is noble or not.

This is a common misconception that keeps having to be corrected.
 

[Count Viceroy]

Yes, that's true. It's just never been an option for me. It didn't cross my mind to mention it. To let him give in to his cowardly tendecies and give up something great. Stand up for yourself damnit.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:33 .

[RunCDFirst]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Yes, I always thought of him as somewhat reasonable up until that point. But then again he's about as socially mature as a 15 year old, so him acting childish shouldn't be that suprising.

Alistair isn't reasonable just... easily pliable. You spend the entire game convincing him to go through with your hairbrained schemes. I was quite surprised when I couldn't talk him out of killing Loghain. I say, good on Alistair for standing up for what he believes in. Unfortunately, it happens that he's standing up against me so out of the party he goes!

[Count Viceroy]

Haha, yeah I suppose you could call it that. He's a naieve thing that's for sure.

[RunCDFirst]

Akka le Vil wrote...
Seriously, I've the feeling that the "dark-fantasy" theme of DAO just let you people go on a rampage labeling of any idiotic evil action as a manly "doing what is needed". Is it a new way to make someone look cooler ? Some kind of power catharsis ?

Yes, everyone knows that you hate Loghain. I don't think it's too much to ask for you to keep the discussions civil though, and leave personal attacks out of this. 

[Riona45]

I'd like to mention that in these Loghain/Alistair debates, I often see people saying--or at least implying--that Alistair should put aside his feelings for the "greater good" of taking Loghain into the party without much discussion of how, exactly, making Loghain a Grey Warden constitutes something that HAS to be done for the sake of ending the Blight.



After all, you certainly don't need Loghain around to finish the game...

[cooldevo]

Akka le Vil wrote...
He forced you to let Loghain live ? I doubt it.
You chosed it knowing he was not going to accept it. YOU forced his hand.

He forced it by putting his own needs above the Grey Wardens.  I don't know why people paint the Wardens like the heros of the day.  They are underhanded, use lots of questionable tactics, and recruit from the scum of the world sometimes.  That is all that really needs to be said.  Just because your morals don't jive with what true Grey Wardens do doesn't mean that it is wrong, that's just how they operate.  The taint is not a reward and being a warden is not a valuable thing to achieve.  Most commoners and nobles think it is but they don't know the 3/4 of the real story.  It's more of a curse.... drive Wardn's crazy that live long enough, you must sacrifice your soul to kill the archdemon.

I'm pretty sure than "being right" is quite different from "being criminally wrong". What Loghain did was a huge pile of madness piled with a colossal pile of stupidity, with a gargantuan pile of blindness overall. Yes, it IS quite different than what the Grey Warden do.

It has been said before genius and insanity are often two sides of the same coin.  He seemingly felt that what he did was for the best of his country.  That he was an instrumental part in freeing.  He did not want Orlesian forces in Fereldan.  He did not think it was a serious Blight and thus the Grey Wardens were not needed.  Again, no archdemon had been seen, and is not seen until late in the game.  The common person never really knew what happened in Ostagar, so why would they care?  If you want to take a compassionate route, morale would be better with Loghain helping to lead the charge than an unknown bastard child that was too scared to take the throne or lead.

Let me get it straight...

Here is a Grey Warden, going to fight the Blight with what it takes.
"Companions, we need all what we can to fight the Darkspawns. Here's the next step : I'm going to let go a close friend, who has proved he can be trusted time and time again, who has shown his devotion to the struggle against the darkspawns and has helped to assemble the army to fight them. And I'll replace him with a man that took the Darkspawn so seriously and was so devoted to the fight against them that he arranged our forces to be destroyed by them, killed and hunted down the Warden, and handed half of the country to the Blight."
"Wow, boss, that's just so insightful ! Definitely a great plan to help our chances against the Darkspawns !"

Paint me unconvinced.

To you he was painted as an honest trustworthy friend.  I thought he was such, until he let his personal agenda get in front of the Warden oath.  At that moment he betrayed me and all Grey Wardens.

Well, so you go out of your way to protect a bastard that helped the Blight at every corner, but don't bother to speak three words that would have prevented a friend to be executed while HE actually fought the Blight it during all this time ?
All this because you betrayed the latter and he didn't like it ?

This just does so much sense.

Where did he help the Blight?  It never says that he explicitly was out to help it at all.  No one outside of the Wardens even thought it was a Blight.  Even Cailan himself was disappointed they hadn't seen an arch demon and had hoped for one.  The people just thought it was a small attack from below ground.  Loghain likely thought it was just a small excursion and could handle it once he had ensured Orlais soldiers did not enter the country.

If you will condemn a person for previous actions, can not another person be condemned for actions that they commit in the moment?  They both made wrong decisions.  Loghain thought he was doing what was right, but submitted to redeeming himself at the landsmeet.  Alistair got mad and gave up his Warden oath.  How does that make Alistair any different than Jory who died because he didn't want to drink the blood?  They both knew there was no way back or out, and Jory paid for it with his life without even seeing what he might have become.  Alistair should face the same for his betrayal of the oath.

[jeckaldied]

Riona45 wrote...

I'd like to mention that in these Loghain/Alistair debates, I often see people saying--or at least implying--that Alistair should put aside his feelings for the "greater good" of taking Loghain into the party without much discussion of how, exactly, making Loghain a Grey Warden constitutes something that HAS to be done for the sake of ending the Blight.

After all, you certainly don't need Loghain around to finish the game...

But every grey warden helps from an In- Character perspective. The more Grey Wardens you have, the more likely one will survive to fight the Archdemon, and thus be able to kill it and end the blight

[Taleroth]

jeckaldied wrote...

Loghain's shown he will do whatever it takes to reach his goals, in fact, Loghain imbodies the perfect Grey Warden, a tactician whose willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.

Except his "greater good" is "GOD I ****ING HATE ORLAIS ARGGGGGHHHH" and the sacrifices he was willing to make for that approaches scorched earth policy.

The game doesn't really treat Grey Wardens that way sense it's just you and Alistair, but if your listen to Duncan, Riordan, play warden's keep, and read the lore, it's obvious the Grey Wardens aren't nice, they make sacrifices of common folks, they'll do anything it takes to stop the Blight, Loghain is willing to do this, Alistair is not.

Loghain didn't give a **** about the Blight.  He didn't do anything to stop them.  Everything he did was to prevent Orlais troops from coming to Ferelden and he was willing to let the Blight roam free to that end.

He'd be a terrible Grey Warden.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:46 .