373 réponses à ce sujet

[RunCDFirst]

Riona45 wrote...

I'd like to mention that in these Loghain/Alistair debates, I often see people saying--or at least implying--that Alistair should put aside his feelings for the "greater good" of taking Loghain into the party without much discussion of how, exactly, making Loghain a Grey Warden constitutes something that HAS to be done for the sake of ending the Blight.

After all, you certainly don't need Loghain around to finish the game...

Politically speaking, it is a wiser move to spare Loghain since he is beloved by the people as a war hero. There are a couple of conversations that suggest the common person only sees Loghain as the master tactician that saved Fereldan from the Orlesians and that trying to publicly blame him for Cailan's death would be a terrible decision.
However, there's no fallout or effect for killing him or sparing him. Seems the people will go along with anything anyway. Besides, most people's endings won't have them being King or Queen, so what the common person thinks really isn't all that important. 

[cooldevo]

Riona45 wrote...

I'd like to mention that in these Loghain/Alistair debates, I often see people saying--or at least implying--that Alistair should put aside his feelings for the "greater good" of taking Loghain into the party without much discussion of how, exactly, making Loghain a Grey Warden constitutes something that HAS to be done for the sake of ending the Blight.

After all, you certainly don't need Loghain around to finish the game...

Yes, but in a RP sense, you don't know what it will take to kill the archdemon at that point in the game.  And you certainly wouldn't know about the multiple endings in a RP sense either.  You make a decision based on your character at that point in time.

Everyone in the world seems to know that it takes a Warden to kill the archdemon.  They just don't know what it costs to do so, and neither do you, Alistair or Loghain at that point in the game.  The more Wardens you have the better the chance of killing the dragon no?  If you have three Wardens, it's a lot easier than using just one or two... it's a numbers game.  That's why Duncan was heavily recruiting to try and get more Wardens.  Not for show, but better odds to kill the archdemon.

Playing it as a RP game, you cannot make decisions based on previous playthroughs, or it will ruin a lot of the immersion.  If you play as a hero you will play differently than a true Grey Warden, which will be different than a worldy evil character.

And for that matter, a Warden is not to hold title or rank.  That should mean that Alistair cannot be a king.  But in some ways of playing it he wants to take the throne. That also would violate the Warden way of doing business.

[jeckaldied]

Taleroth wrote...

jeckaldied wrote...

Loghain's shown he will do whatever it takes to reach his goals, in fact, Loghain imbodies the perfect Grey Warden, a tactician whose willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.

Except his "greater good" is "GOD I ****ING HATE ORLAIS ARGGGGGHHHH" and the sacrifices he was willing to make for that approaches scorched earth policy.

The game doesn't really treat Grey Wardens that way sense it's just you and Alistair, but if your listen to Duncan, Riordan, play warden's keep, and read the lore, it's obvious the Grey Wardens aren't nice, they make sacrifices of common folks, they'll do anything it takes to stop the Blight, Loghain is willing to do this, Alistair is not.

Loghain didn't give a **** about the Blight.  He didn't do anything to stop them.  Everything he did was to prevent Orlais troops from coming to Ferelden and he was willing to let the Blight roam free to that end.

I never said he was helping the Grey Warden's BEFORE you force the Joining on him, but he does prove he's willing to sacrifice everything for a goal, and to quote Duncan from the Mage Origin "Putting duty before all else, such dedication is needed in the Grey Wardens"

[SarEnyaDor]

It hasn't happened for me - the Alistair not being king thing. In my mage game I asked what he wanted he said he didn't want it give it to Anora she's a great leader (note she didn't betray us in this game) so I did, he renounced his throne and then my game went screwy and it acted like he was the king, Morrigan offered me the ritual despite not doing her quest, and he sacrificed himself with the friend speech as if my wish hadn't been his command for the three days.



So of course, I was irked, deleted all those saves and promptly started a new game.

[Teshronesh]

Just a small comment: There is a chest (not sure, but it think in the arls estate) where every stuff alistair wears goes in if he leaves your party.

[Count Viceroy]

If Riordan had presented his reasonings for wanting to put him through the joining, perhaps it'd been easier to see reasons for sparing loghain. But he assumed we had been told so...

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:50 .

[Gegenlicht]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Actually, what we see is that Loghain is simply willing to counter-productively sacrifice. Because certainly NONE of his countless crimes actually helped in ANY WAY for anything.

Not so. He indirectly disposed of a legitimate but frankly rather inept ruler, acting under the likely justified belief that he could run the country better than Cailan did. It's pretty much said that all good ideas Cailan had came from Loghain anyhow. What follows from this -the poisoning of Maric's last remaining relative, seizing power over the Circle of Magi, getting rid of the Teyrn of Denerim- necessarily follows from his need to cement his rule.

He has two major faults, which are underestimating the Darkspawn threat and an insane hatred of the Orlesians. They're both understandable to some extent, but Loghain's in complete denial of the former and completely paranoid about the latter.

Seriously, I've the feeling that the "dark-fantasy" theme of DAO just let you people go on a rampage labeling of any idiotic evil action as a manly "doing what is needed". Is it a new way to make someone look cooler ? Some kind of power catharsis ?

Granted, it seems the story writer followed a need to paint Loghain as a bad guy in spite of his history. However, there exist in the modern-day world countless of examples of people committing atrocities of one kind or another and labelling their actions as doing what was needed. It has nothing to do with trying to be edgy or power-tripping, it is realistic.

And none of this changes the fact that within the game's canon, Loghain remains one of Ferelden's most capable generals and a hero in the eyes of many, for better or worse.


Maybe you've just been very sheltered, or you don't like watching the news or informing yourself of history. I can't tell and I won't assume. But your point of view is very naive.

Modifié par Gegenlicht, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[tmp7704]

cooldevo wrote...

Everyone in the world seems to know that it takes a Warden to kill the archdemon.

Actually, i think either Loghain himself or his daughter is quite dismissive about the Wardens being necessary to defeat the darkspawn -- we should keep in mind that previous Blight happened something like what, 400 years earlier? It's pretty much "bunch of old tales and rumours" to the present nobles and the Wardens keeping it in secret just why exactly they're necessary doesn't help it, either.

[Valmy]

Akka le Vil wrote...

jeckaldied wrote...

Loghain's shown he will do whatever it takes to reach his goals, in fact, Loghain imbodies the perfect Grey Warden, a tactician whose willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.

Actually, what we see is that Loghain is simply willing to counter-productively sacrifice. Because certainly NONE of his countless crimes actually helped in ANY WAY for anything.

Seriously, I've the feeling that the "dark-fantasy" theme of DAO just let you people go on a rampage labeling of any idiotic evil action as a manly "doing what is needed". Is it a new way to make someone look cooler ? Some kind of power catharsis ?

"hey, this guy sure slaughtered a lot of people in a totally stupid way that served no point and only ended reinforcing his foes and making his position weaker, he's totally what we need for our We'Re Just So Ruthless We Must Be Cool group that will save the world so that the people we've killed can live in peace afterward !"

I think you misunderstand.  Loghain was suffering from a paranoid fear of the Orlesians and acting to quelch that non-existant threat he did some pretty destructive things.  Making use of him in the Grey Wardens was simply a death sentence of another sort.

I don't find dying fighting the Blight a counter-productive sacrifice but that is just me.  Also, of course, without Loghain there would be no Kingdom to save.  That is worth consideration as well.  It is not like the guys life was nothing but ruthless delusion, he earned the right for a second chance in my book.  A chance to die honorably instead of die a criminal.

[jeckaldied]

tmp7704 wrote...

cooldevo wrote...

Everyone in the world seems to know that it takes a Warden to kill the archdemon.

Actually, i think either Loghain himself or his daughter is quite dismissive about the Wardens being necessary to defeat the darkspawn -- we should keep in mind that previous Blight happened something like what, 400 years earlier? It's pretty much "bunch of old tales and rumours" to the present nobles and the Wardens keeping it in secret just why exactly they're necessary doesn't help it, either.

That and no one thought it was a real blight, Before, there were I think 2 blights withen 200 years of eachother, the second one of that set of two being the one everyone thougth was the last one. 400 years is the longest the world has gone without a blight it seems, and everyone thought the darkspawn were defeated for good, and that they were only really a dwarf problem now.

[RunCDFirst]

jeckaldied wrote...

I never said he was helping the Grey Warden's BEFORE you force the Joining on him, but he does prove he's willing to sacrifice everything for a goal, and to quote Duncan from the Mage Origin "Putting duty before all else, such dedication is needed in the Grey Wardens"

The same Origin - 'It is rare in these days to find someone willing to sacrifice everything for a friend.Such devotion is needed in the Grey Wardens."

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 25 novembre 2009 - 06:00 .

[jeckaldied]

Valmy wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

jeckaldied wrote...

Loghain's shown he will do whatever it takes to reach his goals, in fact, Loghain imbodies the perfect Grey Warden, a tactician whose willing to make sacrifices for the greater good.

Actually, what we see is that Loghain is simply willing to counter-productively sacrifice. Because certainly NONE of his countless crimes actually helped in ANY WAY for anything.

Seriously, I've the feeling that the "dark-fantasy" theme of DAO just let you people go on a rampage labeling of any idiotic evil action as a manly "doing what is needed". Is it a new way to make someone look cooler ? Some kind of power catharsis ?

"hey, this guy sure slaughtered a lot of people in a totally stupid way that served no point and only ended reinforcing his foes and making his position weaker, he's totally what we need for our We'Re Just So Ruthless We Must Be Cool group that will save the world so that the people we've killed can live in peace afterward !"

I think you misunderstand.  Loghain was suffering from a paranoid fear of the Orlesians and acting to quelch that non-existant threat he did some pretty destructive things.  Making use of him in the Grey Wardens was simply a death sentence of another sort.

I don't find dying fighting the Blight a counter-productive sacrifice but that is just me.  Also, of course, without Loghain there would be no Kingdom to save.  That is worth consideration as well.  It is not like the guys life was nothing but ruthless delusion, he earned the right for a second chance in my book.  A chance to die honorably instead of die a criminal.

I too felt he deserved his second chance, although partly stemming form the fact that I believe he could be found legally insane in a federal court now days.  The tramua from Orlais he suffered when he was young, coupled with Howe's poisien words, I think finally got the better of Loghain's mind, and drove him to have insane paranoid delusions. And being an incredably pragmatic man, he took all the steps he felt nessacary to protect Fereldan against the perceived threat.

[jeckaldied]

RunCDFirst wrote...

jeckaldied wrote...

I never said he was helping the Grey Warden's BEFORE you force the Joining on him, but he does prove he's willing to sacrifice everything for a goal, and to quote Duncan from the Mage Origin "Putting duty before all else, such dedication is needed in the Grey Wardens"

The same Origin 'It is rare in these days to find someone willing to sacrifice everything for a friend.Such devotion is needed in the Grey Wardens."

And Loghain imbodies that too, sacrifcing everything for Fereldan

[Count Viceroy]

There's regret in his words, when you talk to him afterwards. He's too proud to admit it outright, but it's there.

[jeckaldied]

Count Viceroy wrote...

There's regret in his words, when you talk to him afterwards. He's too proud to admit it outright, but it's there.

Yeah, once he relizes that the whole Warden Conspiracy was in his head, if you give him the chance, he's actually a pretty decent fellow.

[cooldevo]

tmp7704 wrote...

cooldevo wrote...

Everyone in the world seems to know that it takes a Warden to kill the archdemon.

Actually, i think either Loghain himself or his daughter is quite dismissive about the Wardens being necessary to defeat the darkspawn -- we should keep in mind that previous Blight happened something like what, 400 years earlier? It's pretty much "bunch of old tales and rumours" to the present nobles and the Wardens keeping it in secret just why exactly they're necessary doesn't help it, either.

They keep the reasoning a secret (the taint and soul part of it), but most seem to at least have a knowledge they need the Warden's to kill the archdemon itself.  Myabe it wasn't directly said, but that's what I got from the conversations and codex.

And that's a big part of it.  Most people didn't think it was a Blight because there was no archdemon seen anywhere in the land.  That's apparently what triggers a full Blight.  Anything else is not.  Because they hadn't seen one, they were skeptical that it was.  At the beginning it was very obvious they didn't think it was... even from when you first talk to Duncan after meeting the King that no one seems to think it was.  Cailan himself says how disappointed he is.  Who's to say Loghain wasn't the same way?  If it wasn't a Blight you don't need Wardens, and it is only a minor spil over of darkspawn.  That would be easy to handle, and would help draw away from the potential civil war brewing.

[Gegenlicht]

jeckaldied wrote...

And Loghain imbodies that too, sacrifcing everything for Fereldan

Or Maric, if you want to be more literal. Which probably amounts to the same for Loghain.

[RunCDFirst]

jeckaldied wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...
The same Origin 'It is rare in these days to find someone willing to sacrifice everything for a friend. Such devotion is needed in the Grey Wardens."

And Loghain imbodies that too, sacrifcing everything for Fereldan

Fereldan is a country, you can't be friends with countries . Loghain is designed so that there are justifications for both sparing and executing. I feel there are too many on the execution side and the spare side requires a bit more assumptions and reading between the lines. My mage spared him though, since it was pragmatic. My human noble isn't going to let the bastard live though.
As for Howe and his 'poisonous words' we're really given little indication that Howe is a major force behind Loghain's decisions. Anora argues for this explanation, but she's emotionally invested in the situation and will be more than willing to pin the blame of Loghain's actions on someone else. No, I believe Loghain is in full capacity of his mind and aware of the consequences of his actions. He just let hate blind him to reason.

[SJR200]

Yeah my first play through I pretty much handled the Loghain situation as I would have in RL. I had the bastard executed by Alistair. Alistair went on to be a good king, albiet without Anora, but I'm sure he found someone else, after all, he IS King (oh it's GOOD to be King) I did the dirty with Morrigan the night ebfore the Final Battle thus sparrng Alistair and myself, killed the Archdemon, saved the world and kept the Hot French Rogue. All in all a good ending for me heh.



On my second Playthrough and am going to go the hardened route with the party members and look for a different ending. Though I have to be honest, I'm still not sure if I won't execute that bastard Loghain when the time comes.

[Valmy]

On my second Playthrough and am going to go the hardened route with the party members and look for a different ending. Though I have to be honest, I'm still not sure if I won't execute that bastard Loghain when the time comes.

Get him and talk to him a bit.  He is a bit more sympathetic when you get to know him.

Not to say he does not deserve to die or anything.

[Akka le Vil]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Yes, everyone knows that you hate Loghain. I don't think it's too much to ask for you to keep the discussions civil though, and leave personal attacks out of this.

It was more ironic than agressive.
But my point was that it is irksome to see any "evil" action in the game being labeled as "doing that is necessary", even when there was much better option that were more on the good side, or that the evil action is obviously counter-productive.
As such, it seems that it's the new "cool" to take an evil action and pretend it's "ruthlessness for a greater good", even when it only ends up being a failure even in efficiency.

So I'd like to remind people : the "pragmatic, ruthless" approach isn't "when faced with two options, take the eviler because it looks like you're a Man by doing it", it's "take the best one".
Loghain's choices don't strike me as pragmatic, they strike me as idiotic, even from his insane point of view.
If you are afraid of some foreign invasion, and you have something that is at the very least a big darkspawn raid on your territory, YOU DON'T DESTROY YOUR OWN ARMY AND START A CIVIL WAR !

Loghain being a traitor that manage to kills his king during the battle (but actually ACTS during the battle rather than retreat) and "mourn" such "tragic accident"? That's great ! Ruthless, but pragmatic and efficient.
Loghain abandonning some towns to the invaders/darkspawns rather than defending it because it would damage his military forces ? That's okay ! Ruthless, but pragmatic and efficient.
Loghain using the elves as slave labor to built the fortifications/weapons necessary ? No problem ! Ruthless, but pragmatic and efficient.
Loghain requisitionning food and ressources for the army even if it lets lots of peasants to starve, because the army ACTUALLY lacks food and ressources ? Good move ! Ruthless, but pragmatic and efficient.

All this could have made more understandable and more acceptable the "misguided but with honorable intentions". Bonus point if his actions would have been actually NECESSARY to resist the darkspawn invasion. Here there would have been some real reason to forgive him, some real reason to consider that he did what he to do, and to make it harder to treat him simply as a bastard.

But what we see in the game ? Seriously, that's not that. He takes evil actions but without them having a real gain over actual honourable actions. He goes much farther than needed, and ends usually up with completely counter-productive results. That's not "ruthless, but pragmatic and efficient", no.

[Ion515]

[/quote]
No, I believe Loghain is in full capacity of his mind and
aware of the consequences of his actions. He just let hate blind him to
reason.
[/quote]


Is it just me, or is it usually believed
that someone who is blinded by hate to reason, is NOT in full capacity of his mind aware of the
consequences of his actions?

[tmp7704]

cooldevo wrote...

And that's a big part of it.  Most people didn't think it was a Blight because there was no archdemon seen anywhere in the land.  That's apparently what triggers a full Blight.  Anything else is not.  Because they hadn't seen one, they were skeptical that it was.  At the beginning it was very obvious they didn't think it was... even from when you first talk to Duncan after meeting the King that no one seems to think it was.  Cailan himself says how disappointed he is.  Who's to say Loghain wasn't the same way?  If it wasn't a Blight you don't need Wardens, and it is only a minor spil over of darkspawn.  That would be easy to handle, and would help draw away from the potential civil war brewing.

The catch to this is, Cailan may get away with presuming it's not a Blight etc because he's supposed to be a naive fool. Loghain supposedly being supreme leader etc should simply know better and plan for the worst rather than for the best  (or most convenient for him) case.

Instead, he acts no better than the "fool" Cailan, failing to gather the intelligence and then dismissing one threat (the Darkspawn) while making mountain out of molehill when it comes to another matter ("zomg Orlais troops may come to us!") and then based on such half-baked understanding of the big picture goes happy-go-lucky breaking oaths, betraying his own king and destroying the forces of his own country ... even though there is much simpler alternate route that's following the original plan of beating the supposedly weak darkspawn at south border first and then securing his west once that's done with.

That the man who lets his own paranoia cloud his vision to the point Loghain did is then supposed to be 'pragmatic and reasonable' choice for a Grey Warden and a valuable asset is just funny. Or sad.

[grallonsphere]

I keep hearing about 'hardening' Alistair and while I can think of a few ways to acheive this - somehow I don't think this is what is meant by the expression. So how do I harden my favorite young templar?









G.

[Herr Uhl]

By saying that everybody looks out for themselves after his personal quest.