373 réponses à ce sujet

[RunCDFirst]

One difficulty in trying to present Loghain in a positive light is that you never see anything from his point of view. The only time you see him outside of your encounters is to foreshadow an event for the next chapter.

It would be pretty easy to write a few situations from Loghain's perspective that would make him 100 times more amicable.

[Zalbaar]

Has anyone noticed that Loghain is like Malack from KOTOR. Personally I rather like Malack better at least he was truly ruler of the army's where Loghain was using his daughter to take control.



As far as Alistair is concerned I have started calling him Carth both were just as whiny.



I played through as a Male Noble and tried to make the queen my wife but at the end I got the ending as if she ruled by herself. If I side Loghain and Alistair leaves will that end the glitch and make me King.

[cooldevo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I really never saw anything special in Loghain that was worth saving him. He's a good tactician, so what? He's not the only tactician worth a damn. Ferelden has quite a few generals and commadners. Seasoned warrior? You got plenty of those, and probably younger and in better shape than Loghain.

You don't need Loghain really - there's nothing so critical that he brings to the table that someone else can't do.
There's no "greater good" in allowing him to live. That's just bull****.

Who's another tactician in Fereldan?  Where are the other Generals and Commanders?  Who's to say they weren't wiped out in the Ostagar massacre?  I sure don't remember seeing any available.  You have to take what you can find in the game.  Neither do I think leaving recruiting and training to Alistair would be any good either.  A battle hardened general would be superb at scouting the best of the best out and sufficiently training them.  Which is what the Wardens want... the best of the best.  I wouldn't trust Alistair to scout out talent if it came up and punched him in the head.  He's not that type of person.

What you mean to say is that *you* see no need for Loghain.  In the spirit of a true Grey Warden I would speculate that it would be a mistake not take him.  He's the best of the best, which is what Duncan wanted to recruit.  Even the other Warden says it would be the smart thing to do.  Personal feelings and attachments will only impede one's ability to be an effective Grey Warden, with the win at all cost approach.

[SarEnyaDor]

I think he allowed the tower to be taken, too.



If you run around alot and talk to all the guards before doing any of the quests the ones by the tower tell you that there is work in some tunnels beneath the tower and it is off limits by order of Loghain.

[Valmy]

Akka le Vil wrote...
This makes absolutely no sense : Loghain didn't KNEW that the tower had been taken, and he reacted at the signal that was supposed to say "charge forward".
You're completely bending the fact in a desperate attempt to be apologetic to Loghain.

You're also often contradicting yourself, using the excuse that Loghain saw the darkspawn as no serious threat to justify how he fought the Warden during a Darkspawn invasion, and then flip-flopping all around and trying to justify his retreat as "the darkspawn were just not beatable".
A little confused, aren't we ?

I am not bending over anything to be apologetic to Loghain I am trying to get across what I thought happened and not doing it very well.  He was standing right there observing the battle how do you know what Loghain did or didn't know?  Or maybe he says so and I forgot.  I am aware of the signal but why would he wait for the signal and only then decide to retreat if he never intended to charge in the first place?

Did I use the excuse that I thought Loghain did not consider the Blight serious?  You are the second person to say that I must be confused because I do not think that I must have mispoke someplace.  He did think the Darkspawn were beatable, obviously he was trying to build up an army to do so, he just thought that particular battle was lost.  Why else would he look so angry when he left the field?  He thought the king had blundered and Orlais and the Grey Wardens were responsible for it.

I mean that makes sense.  What you are proposing makes no sense.  You basically are just jumping up and down screaming he is an idiot and what he did made no sense.  I am giving you my view and you act like I am trying to defend him.  I sent the guy to die on a death sentence for treason.  The honorable thing would have been to charge valiantly and do his duty to the King in the first place.  It seems not thinking he is the craziest nutcase ever and actually thinking about what his train of thought might have been is exactly the same as being apologetic which I am most certainly not.  You might be right that the battle could have easily been won and he retreated anyway...but why didn't he already do that during the previous battles?  Again on David Gaider knows for sure.  Maybe I will talk to Loghain again and see if he can give some more insight.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:49 .

[Valmy]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think he allowed the tower to be taken, too.

If you run around alot and talk to all the guards before doing any of the quests the ones by the tower tell you that there is work in some tunnels beneath the tower and it is off limits by order of Loghain.

How would he have coordinated that with the Darkspawn?  Did they exchange notes?  It said they found some tunnels underneath and they were exploring.

[tmp7704]

Valmy wrote...

Um...of course it being brought up as justiciation for his actions.  We are talking about the justification for his actions.

Yes, i just bring this up in response to question "how do you know he thought it's not serious". If he did think it was serious, then it wouldn't be possible for people to try and justify his actions with claims that he didn't.

Loghain might have seen that the army was now surprised, surrounded, and likely to be destroyed by a much larger army than the King or he suspected and made the decision to abandon the field on the spot to continue the fight.

This is largely wrong. The battle plan made by Loghain himself did predict large presence of the darkspawn, this was by no means a surprise and it was up to his flank to make up for this disadvantage.

The darkspawn taking over the tower was a surprise, *but* it was something Loghain couldn't know -- he was with his forces placed away from the fight, as he was supposed to flank the darkspawn after receiving the signal from the tower. Furthermore, he is shown pulling his troops *after* the tower is lit, while this was supposed to be his cue to attack.

There's only one simple explanation for this -- Loghain made the battle plan which he wasn't going to carry out himself from the start. And he made it this way to put Cailan in a spot that'd lead to king's death, thus leaving Loghain free to make the power grab. Which was effective tactic but for supposed genius extremely wasteful.

[Akka le Vil]

Loghain, anyway, is a very serious case of Draco in leather pants

[RunCDFirst]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think he allowed the tower to be taken, too.

If you run around alot and talk to all the guards before doing any of the quests the ones by the tower tell you that there is work in some tunnels beneath the tower and it is off limits by order of Loghain.

Everything's off limits at the start of the game. You can't even visit the bulk of the army. I believe that's a design restriction and not a plot restriction.

[Obliterati]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Loghain, anyway, is a very serious case of Draco in leather pants

See, I thought they made him the Designated Villian, with a dash of Large Ham...

[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...
There's only one simple explanation for this -- Loghain made the battle plan which he wasn't going to carry out himself from the start. And he made it this way to put Cailan in a spot that'd lead to king's death, thus leaving Loghain free to make the power grab. Which was effective tactic but for supposed genius extremely wasteful.

That explanation makes no sense.  if that was his plan all along why did he ask Cailan not to be in that spot in the first place?  He never even wanted to be Teyrn in the first place and now he makes a naked grab to be King for no reason?

The only logical explanation is he made the decision to retreat on the spot because he believed the battle was lost and the Grey Wardens and Orlais responsible and went suitably nutso with paranoia.  None of the rest of his actions are even remotely logical without that being true.  Then he becomes just an unpeakably evil bad guy rather than a misguided crazy fanatical paranoid guy and the whole path of his redemption wouldn't make any sense.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:55 .

[cooldevo]

Valmy wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think he allowed the tower to be taken, too.

If you run around alot and talk to all the guards before doing any of the quests the ones by the tower tell you that there is work in some tunnels beneath the tower and it is off limits by order of Loghain.

How would he have coordinated that with the Darkspawn?  Did they exchange notes?  It said they found some tunnels underneath and they were exploring.

Don't have to coordinate anything.  Just get the "guards" in the tower to move into the "newly opened" lower tunnels and draw out some darkspawn at a pre-appointed time..  Tell them they will be rescued before they are overwhelmed and it's all good.  Loghain did say they were trusted soldiers.  Maybe they also agreed with what Loghain was trying to do.

Who's to say that isn't what Loghain wanted everyone to think that they were innocent tunnels recently found by his men.  Convenient how they were found so close to the battle starting, and then darkspawn pour out overtaking the critical lynchpin to the whole battle plan just before the battle.  And yet they didn't pour out of the tower very far.... just out far enough to secure the prerimeter of the tower.

[SarEnyaDor]

It may be just that, an easy way to keep the character out of places until later, but I have a hate inside me for Loghain that colors my world view.

[syllogi]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Loghain, anyway, is a very serious case of Draco in leather pants

LOL, thank you for this.  All this Loghain worship was really rubbing me the wrong way, and I couldn't put my finger on exactly why.  TVTropes just opened my eyes. 

[RunCDFirst]

Obliterati wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

Loghain, anyway, is a very serious case of Draco in leather pants

See, I thought they made him the Designated Villian, with a dash of Large Ham...

Oh no, you won't tempt me to that site. I'd prefer to not lose my entire day, thanks.

[Valmy]

cooldevo wrote...
Don't have to coordinate anything.  Just get the "guards" in the tower to move into the "newly opened" lower tunnels and draw out some darkspawn at a pre-appointed time..  Tell them they will be rescued before they are overwhelmed and it's all good.  Loghain did say they were trusted soldiers.  Maybe they also agreed with what Loghain was trying to do.

Who's to say that isn't what Loghain wanted everyone to think that they were innocent tunnels recently found by his men.  Convenient how they were found so close to the battle starting, and then darkspawn pour out overtaking the critical lynchpin to the whole battle plan just before the battle.  And yet they didn't pour out of the tower very far.... just out far enough to secure the prerimeter of the tower.

They didn't pour out very far at the very beginning of the battle...there were probably alot more coming.

See if Loghain was that evil I have my doubts they would have have him "turn good" later on and suddenly be all ashamed of what he did and eager to die for the cause.  That just makes no sense to me how he could feel honestly justified and righteous in his insanity in that case and then suddenly be horrified by what he did.  But hey as I said only David Gaider knows for sure we both have nothing but circumstantial evidence.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cooldevo wrote...
Who's another tactician in Fereldan?  Where are the other Generals and Commanders?  Who's to say they weren't wiped out in the Ostagar massacre?  I sure don't remember seeing any available.  You have to take what you can find in the game.  Neither do I think leaving recruiting and training to Alistair would be any good either.  A battle hardened general would be superb at scouting the best of the best out and sufficiently training them.  Which is what the Wardens want... the best of the best.  I wouldn't trust Alistair to scout out talent if it came up and punched him in the head.  He's not that type of person.

So you're saying the great Loghain doesn't have any trusted commanders servuign under him? You're saying that the PC is not a capable tactician in his own right. You're saying you NEED Loghain in any way?
That's just preposterous.
You've a got a whole army behind you, and Loghain is a filthy traitor who'd stab you in the back without regrets.
He sabotaged the Grey Wardens efforts. He friggin spat on their corpses with his lies.

No, I kinda think duncan would want him very much dead.

[Valmy]

TeenZombie wrote...
All this Loghain worship was really rubbing me the wrong way, and I couldn't put my finger on exactly why.

Typical.  There is a middle ground between thinking of why he did what he did besides that he is just a simplistic boring supervillian of vileness and worship.

[Axterix]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

It may be just that, an easy way to keep the character out of places until later, but I have a hate inside me for Loghain that colors my world view.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe Logain set the tower up to be taken.

Pulling back with the beacon lit, well, that leads to stories of Logain letting the King and the wardens die, could lead to a civil war.  But darkspawn somehow got into the tower, the signal was never lit, and by the time we realized it, it was too late, that plays a lot better.

Logain is a good tactician.  Howe supposedly has good political insight.  Doubt either one would want the "the tower is lit, okay, order the retreat" scenario.

[Joie de Combat]

Valmy wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
There's only one simple explanation for this -- Loghain made the battle plan which he wasn't going to carry out himself from the start. And he made it this way to put Cailan in a spot that'd lead to king's death, thus leaving Loghain free to make the power grab. Which was effective tactic but for supposed genius extremely wasteful.

That explanation makes no sense.  if that was his plan all along why did he ask Cailan not to be in that spot in the first place?  He never even wanted to be Teyrn in the first place and now he makes a naked grab to be King for no reason?

The only logical explanation is he made the decision to retreat on the spot because he believed the battle was lost and the Grey Wardens and Orlais responsible and went suitably nutso with paranoia.  None of the rest of his actions are even remotely logical without that being true.  Then he becomes just an unpeakably evil bad guy rather than a misguided crazy fanatical paranoid guy and the whole path of his redemption wouldn't make any sense.

My impression was that Loghain's plan was to wipe out the Grey Wardens, because he believed they were in league with Orlais to take over Ferelden. That's why he argues against Cailain taking the field with the Wardens and why he argues against having Wardens in the tower to light the beacon - his plan was for the beacon to never be lit and the Wardens to be slaughtered. Cailan was collateral damage.

[cooldevo]

TeenZombie wrote...

LOL, thank you for this.  All this Loghain worship was really rubbing me the wrong way, and I couldn't put my finger on exactly why.  TVTropes just opened my eyes. 

Who's worshipping Loghain?  I know I'm not.  Most of those that support not executing him are proposing the stance that from a purely Grey Warden perspective, it's smart to take him.  That's all.  Very few actively support a lot of his decisions, I know I wasn't a big fan.  But as I've said several times Duncan took me away from execution in several of the origin stories.  Why should I not honor Duncan's memory and do what he did for the good of the Grey Wardens and their oath to end the Blight at all cost?

If you call that worship so be it, but the same could be said for the Alistair worship too.  How a whiny, immature, oath-breaking, and self-serving person could ever have been chosen as a Grey Warden rubs me the wrong way.  It violates the very core of the Warden oath.

[Akka le Vil]

Valmy wrote...

That explanation makes no sense.  if that was his plan all along why did he ask Cailan not to be in that spot in the first place?  He never even wanted to be Teyrn in the first place and now he makes a naked grab to be King for no reason?

The only logical explanation is he made the decision to retreat on the spot because he believed the battle was lost and the Grey Wardens and Orlais responsible and went suitably nutso with paranoia.

Except the raw FACTS of the game disgree and prove the opposite : Howe attacking Highever (the family that could bid for the throne if Cailan and Eamon died, and like Cailan said "just how did he thought he could get away from that ?") and suddendly being made the right-hand of Loghain, Eamon being poisoned, all this happening several days BEFORE the battle.
Loghain WAITING for the signal that signify "the battle has started" (hence the king can not pull out anymore) before retreating.
Loghain NOT saying that the army should retreat (if he thought the battle was going to be lost  and he wasn't planning a betrayal, then WTH ?).

If you're willing to forget the entire plot of the game, yeah, you can say that he didn't plan it. But I'm afraid facts are facts, and betrayals happening before the battle even start tend to prove that it was planned...

None of the rest of his actions are even remotely logical without that being true.  Then he becomes just an unpeakably evil bad guy rather than a misguided crazy fanatical paranoid guy and the whole path of his redemption wouldn't make any sense.

Bingo !
You start to understand the point and why it's so laughable to see all people twisting and bending the fact to make him appear like a good guy.

[Akka le Vil]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

Loghain, anyway, is a very serious case of Draco in leather pants

See, I thought they made him the Designated Villian, with a dash of Large Ham...

Oh no, you won't tempt me to that site. I'd prefer to not lose my entire day, thanks.

It DOES tend to swallow you for extended period of times, doesn't it ?

[RunCDFirst]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So you're saying the great Loghain doesn't have any trusted commanders servuign under him? You're saying that the PC is not a capable tactician in his own right. You're saying you NEED Loghain in any way?
That's just preposterous.
You've a got a whole army behind you, and Loghain is a filthy traitor who'd stab you in the back without regrets.
He sabotaged the Grey Wardens efforts. He friggin spat on their corpses with his lies.

No, I kinda think duncan would want him very much dead.

Ser Cautherin isn't a tactician.
The PC only displays the ability to command a small unit, not an entire army. 
You can't really argue that there are or aren't any great tacticians other than Loghain. No one says Loghain is the only tactician in Fereldan, only that he's a really great one. For all we know, Anora is an amazing military leader. Or it could be that the rest of the Fereldan military is composed of people who have trouble deciding which end of their sword to stick in the darkspawn.

Akka le Vil wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Obliterati wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

Loghain, anyway, is a very serious case of Draco in leather pants 

See, I thought they made him the Designated Villian, with a dash of Large Ham...

Oh no, you won't tempt me to that site. I'd prefer to not lose my entire day, thanks.

It DOES tend to swallow you for extended period of times, doesn't it ?

If there is any evil in this world, it is TVTropes.org. It's ruined so many of my productive days...

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[Akka le Vil]

cooldevo wrote...

Don't have to coordinate anything.  Just get the "guards" in the tower to move into the "newly opened" lower tunnels and draw out some darkspawn at a pre-appointed time..  Tell them they will be rescued before they are overwhelmed and it's all good.  Loghain did say they were trusted soldiers.  Maybe they also agreed with what Loghain was trying to do.

Who's to say that isn't what Loghain wanted everyone to think that they were innocent tunnels recently found by his men.  Convenient how they were found so close to the battle starting, and then darkspawn pour out overtaking the critical lynchpin to the whole battle plan just before the battle.  And yet they didn't pour out of the tower very far.... just out far enough to secure the prerimeter of the tower.

The fact that the actual soldiers guarding the tower were slaughtered rather than retreating, that when you encounter them they obviously look terrified and surprised about the darkspawns, and that they HELP YOU RETAKE THE TOWER, tends to prove that it wasn't the case.
Though I agree it would be a more logical planning (even if the plan of letting the darkspawns win is a total idiocy in itself right from the start).