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[Axterix]

TeenZombie wrote...

1) elevating the man who slaughtered one of the highest noble families in the country to his right hand man, and rewarding him.

The deal was most likely in place beforehand.  And nobles war over land from time to time.  Howe knew Loghain depended on him and took advantage of it.

I'm sure if you looked into Grey Warden records though, you'd find similar people added to the Wardens, including malefactors and blood mages.  I know amongst Warden companions you'll find former spies, assassins, and a Qunari who slaughtered an entire family who made the mistake of nursing him back to health.

2) selling citizens into slavery.

Selling elves into slavery.  Many humans, including human nobles, don't think much of elves.  Loghain also explains his view.  Without a big army, the city would fall and everyone would die.  Far better to sell some elves so that all can live.

And to put this into perspective, a Grey Warden would do the same to defeat the blight.  A Grey Warden would experiment on said elves to help defeat the Blight.  A Grey Warden would experiment on other Grey Wardens if needed to defeat a blight.

3) poisoning another important noble, whose only crime is that he *might* disagree with him.

A noble who did wind up disagreeing with him, who was the focal point of the rebellion.  A noble, who, if he didn't get his way at the landsmeet, takes up arms.  A noble who protects his child, a mage who made a pact with a demon, and his wife, who conspired to hide said child from the circle as well as tried to protect the demon while it possessed the child.  Oh, yeah, and didn't he also ship off a boy he agreed to raise because his wife wanted it?

We don't really know too much said noble, other than Allistair likes him, he's important, and he's amiable to what we want accomplished. 

Because that's what Grey Wardens do.  When it comes to Blight time, if it benefits the Cause to remove you so we can defeat the Blight, then you might well be removed, if the risks are acceptable.

4) supporting blood mages in the Circle of Magi.

And wardens would do the exact same to achieve their goals.  Wardens are willing to use blood magic.

5) retreating from the field of battle, disregarding the direct orders of his king.

He did this because he felt the king betrayed his country by inviting the Orlesians in.  A Warden would sacrifice to preserve the cause as well.

6) declaring all Grey Wardens to be criminals, in the middle of a Blight, hiring an assassin for the Grey Wardens he hasn't caught, and imprisoning the one Grey Warden he does catch.

Side effect of the battle not going quite as planned.  Since the signal was lit, he needed a scape goat.  The wardens made for an available, after all, they'd meddled in politics before in Ferelden.

And again, Wardens would sacrifice innocents to accomplish their goal.

make him an expert tactician, worthy of redemption, and necessary to ending the Blight? Also, please explain why Alistair is damned for MAYBE running away, while Loghain is applauded for feeling remorseful ONLY after being defeated and pardoned. I've asked these questions before, and no one is answering, only giving more of the same excuses for Loghain's behavior.

I don't see people applauding Loghain for feeling remorseful.  What I see is people saying they made Loghain a Grey Warden because, like him or not, it worked for the cause, the only cause that matters, defeating the Blight.  If that serves to offer redemption, to undo some of the harm he did, that's fine, but irrelevant.  What matters is he is a good tool to be used against the Blight, which, with the situation far from ideal, it therefore not something a Warden doing his duty should pass up.

Loghain did it for the wrong reasons, due to his hatred of the Orlesians.  But everything he did has been and will be done in the future by Wardens.

Alistair, on the other hand, lost sight of the big picture.  He turned his back on the Blight for personal vengeance.  And the Blight is all that matters.

Wardens aren't not nice guys.  Very ends justify the means.

[syllogi]

Valmy wrote...


Ok let me think why I decided exactly to spare him.  I took awhile agonizing over this.

First I wanted to accept his surrender for political reasons: so I would not upset his supporters and divide the country again.  After all that was my thinking for having Anora and Alistair marry.  Then when Alistair got really upset, frankly I was surprised he felt so vehemently that nothing but execution was possible...I thought maybe I should go ahead and killl him...but then when Rhiordan made his suggestion it seemed like the perfect solution.  I was a little shocked by Alistair's blood thirstyness and rather confused by his claim that getting accepted into Warden's is an honor when thieves and murderers get conscripted all the time.  I mean there is a conscription process it is not like people line up for the privlege.

Also I never kill unarmed people in these games generally unless I absolutely cannot avoid it (well in the persona my human noble play through was taking on at least).  Loghain just seemed more useful that way...then when I heard how the Archdemon had to be slain it was perfect.  Loghain, the man responsible for so much death and chaos, could now pay us all back.  Impressively Loghain understood that perfectly and did it willingly.

I hope Alistair would forgive me and return at the end but he did not.  I do feel bad about that I hoped it would work out for everybody.  At least we both lived to tell the tale though.

Fair enough, although I would say that Alistair was probably raised on stories of the legendary Grey Wardens, and after he was sent to the Chantry, Duncan was his only father-figure/mentor, so his idea of what it means to be a Grey Warden is different than yours.  And some people DO line up for the privilege, like Ser Jory, before knowing what the real deal is.

Loghain may sacrifice himself nobly and willingly in the end, but so does Alistair if given the opportunity (it's my favorite scene, I must admit).  I'm sure there are killers who face their day of execution with dignity, but that doesn't change what they did to get there.  Alistair has done nothing to merit abandoning him or having him killed at the Landsmeet -- unless, of course, you are a dwarf who cares nothing about humans or elves, a evil character, or some sort of chaotic neutral PC off your meds.  Then, by all means, go for it. 

[tmp7704]

Axterix wrote...

Selling elves into slavery.  Many humans, including human nobles, don't think much of elves.  Loghain also explains his view.  Without a big army, the city would fall and everyone would die.  Far better to sell some elves so that all can live.

Of course, the fact there is no big army is Loghain's own doing to begin with. It's funny how he makes these grand sweeping decisions for the sake of the country, but it's always up to the others to pick up the tab. Very convenient for a man who's supposedly all about sacrifice for the greater good. And tactical prowess.

[Akka le Vil]

Valmy wrote...

I think Alistair > Loghain but I am sure dissapointed in him on a personal level.

Valmy wrote...

Then when Alistair got really upset, frankly I was surprised he felt so vehemently that nothing but execution was possible...I thought maybe I should go ahead and killl him...but then when Rhiordan made his suggestion it seemed like the perfect solution.  I was a little shocked by Alistair's blood thirstyness and rather confused by his claim that getting accepted into Warden's is an honor when thieves and murderers get conscripted all the time.  I mean there is a conscription process it is not like people line up for the privlege.

Why are you disappointed/surprised ?
Did you really expect that he would accept to work with the man that destroyed and pissed on everything was the dearest to him ?
Do you blame him for being "only" humanly heroic - laying his life all the time for others - and not superhumanly heroic ?
Alistair has noble ideals, he sees being a Grey Warden as being a position of honor, the place for people who are able to sacrifice their lives for the greater good. Loghain soiled their name, massacred them, hunted them and spend the whole story helping the darkspawn invading the country - while the sacred duty of a Grey Warden is about FIGHTING the darkspawns.
You then say him "forget about everything any human should feel, ignore what Loghain has done to the Grey Warden, ignore every sense of justice, make a 180° flip about everything you think about Loghain and just start to work with him", and you expect him to accept ?
I mean, remember, you're a player playing a game, he's supposed (in the game) to be a real person, not a robot. No way in Hell he could ever accept that. I would be shocked if he did.

RunCDFirst wrote...

I don't really adhere to the notion that sparing Loghain is a moral decision but more of a practical one.

I'm pretty sure that a robber feels the same way when he steal things. The previous owner may disagree. Samely, Alistair disagree and sees a very moral point about Loghain. Your decision is perhaps grounded on strictly practical points (though I'd not want a known traitors that has hunted down Grey Warden and disregarded the threat of darkspawn as a Grey Warden myself), but it still has moral implication, like it or not.
That's precisely the point of morals in fact, that there is things you should not do even if they are convenient for you

Will the troops that serve under Loghain serve better, knowing their leader and hero is standing with them? Will the rest of the populace rally under the Hero of the River Dane against the darkspawn horde?

Actually, considering that Loghain is the one who started a civil war, I'm not really convinced about that. Many soldiers who had their comrades left to be dragged underground at Ostagar, many soldiers who were crushed and had their friend left to starve in cages during the uprising, would probably feel quite a bit underwhelmed to see Loghain among them, let alone leading them.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:13 .

[jeckaldied]

Alright, I'm just going to lay out exactly what I think happened, and why I feel it is a better decision to let Loghain live than execute him.

While the battle at Ostagar is in it's early planning stages (judging form the camp they had been there about 2 weeks before you get there) Loghain learns that the king, despite his repeated warnings against it, has called for the Grey Wardens in Orlais to come, with two divisions of Chevaliers. Loghain is disturbed by this, he already dislikes this idea of having one big battle at Ostagar (if you talk to him before the battle and during the meeting, he thinks the whole idea of this single, one battle at Ostagar is just stupid), and now he finds out that the king made an even stupider (in his opinion) call to have one grand battle the bards will sing about for ages. Loghain constantly tries to talk the king out of this battle and the Orlesians.

Meanwhile the Origin stories happen, Howe's take over of Highever was his own idea, just trying to take advantage of the fact everyone was gone. He probably had some crazy lie planned out, as someone in the noble origin says that if the PC hadn't lived Howe could just tell the king whatever. Howe knows Loghain, he knows Loghain's paranoia, and tells him something along the lines that the Couslands were in talks with the Orlais,

Loghain's mind runs wild, "If the Couslands are traitors, who else could be" And then he remembers Eamon's wife is Orleasian, Loghain is sure that he must be in on it, and luck would have it, there is an apostate whose down on his luck, so Loghain gets him to poison Eamon, probably right after Duncan's visit to Redcliff.

Back at Ostagar, he's already lost himself to his delusions, the Grey Warden's are planning to kill the king so their Orlesian Overlords can conquer Fereldan, but Cailan will hear none of it. So Loghain comes up with a plan, his forces will light the Tower of Ishal to tell him if it's safe for his troops, but when it becomes the fact the Grey Warden's are lighting it, his delusional mind figures that they'll only light it when it's time for their trap to be laid so they can wipe out Fereldan's army at once. When the tower lighting is delayed do to darkspawn, this only confirms this to him, and so he retreats.

Howe becomes his right hand man because he tipped him off to the Bannorn's plot to turn over the country. Anora is upset mostly over her daddy now overseeing what shes doing (after the Landsmeet, you learn a lot about the situation, and the fact she's as pragmatic and the like as her dad, for example, completly lying about being in any danger from her father). Loghain does everything he feels is necessary (even the enslavement of the elves, he needed the money for his soldiers),

After you beat some sense into him, his paranoia lifts some, he realizes he has hurt his country, and he submits himself to your judgment. Why not let him join the Grey Wardens, he may not be right all the time, but one more opinion thrown in from a man who has a history of being a tactical genius can't hurt now that he has recovered his mind. At the very least he's fodder. Everyone in the country still loves him, even Eamon respects him, and just thinks he's gone crazy. Executing him would be a public relation disaster. "Loghain kept saying the Grey Warden's are taking over, and now they killed him!" as opposed to, "Well, Loghain joined them and says their okay, good for them"

You don't have to like him, you may wish a worst fate, but given the situation the Grey Warden's are in, Loghain is a good addition, anyone you can get is a good addition, the more Grey Wardens you have, the better chance one will live to kill the archdemon. Alistair not realizing that and huffing off is just childish and stupid.

Modifié par jeckaldied, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:20 .

[Axterix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Of course, the fact there is no big army is Loghain's own doing to begin with. It's funny how he makes these grand sweeping decisions for the sake of the country, but it's always up to the others to pick up the tab. Very convenient for a man who's supposedly all about sacrifice for the greater good. And tactical prowess.

Well, actually, we have no comparision of the size or quality of the army before or after Loghain's moves.  Nor how many people and gold were lost due to civil war.  And, for that matter, a good feeling of the timeline, if there was enough time to train everyone, to make the arms, and so on.

Either way though, Loghain choose to sacrifice some elves who many didn't care about in order to try and save the country.  That is his stated intent.

And I am willing to bet he did worse things than that when throwing the Orlesians out the first time.  It was most likely a very ugly war, on both sides, and that is part of why his hatred of Orlesians runs so deep, something the current king cannot quite grasp, because he did not experience that time.

A lot of it out of blind hatred of the Orlesians.  And, as far as that goes, he might well be right about them.  Think we get to know all of 3 Orlesians?  1 is a bit niave shoe shopping bard living the spy game highlife.  Another a spymaster betraying her country and anyone else she feels necessary, with finality.  And the third a refuge due to not consenting to be raped by the knights.

So, who knows?  He might well have been right about keeping the Orlesians out.

That said, personally, don't agree with how he went about it.

[RunCDFirst]

Akka le Vil wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...
I don't really adhere to the notion that sparing Loghain is a moral decision but more of a practical one.

I'm pretty sure that a robber feels the same way when he steal things. The previous owner may disagree. Samely, Alistair disagree and sees a very moral point about Loghain. Your decision is perhaps grounded on strictly practical points (though I'd not want a known traitors that has hunted down Grey Warden and disregarded the threat of darkspawn as a Grey Warden myself), but it still has moral implication, like it or not.
That's precisely the point of morals in fact, that there is things you should not do even if they are convenient for you

And yet despite their terrible deeds they can still help others. They can save the society they hurt by fighting the threat that stands to destroy it. I can understand that some people will throw morals into the equation, but if I'm standing at the precipice of annihilation I will do whatever can be done to ensure success. With a Blight descending upon the capital, I don't have the luxury of morals. If I must recruit rapists, murders, thieves, slavers and brigades then so be it.

 

Will the troops that serve under Loghain serve better, knowing their leader and hero is standing with them? Will the rest of the populace rally under the Hero of the River Dane against the darkspawn horde?

Actually, considering that Loghain is the one who started a civil war, I'm not really convinced about that. Many soldiers who had their comrades left to be dragged underground at Ostagar, many soldiers who were crushed and had their friend left to starve in cages during the uprising, would probably feel quite a bit underwhelmed to see Loghain among them, let alone leading them.

And for every soldier that feels betrayed and that Loghain started a civil war there are those that see him as a brilliant leader and hero. I mean, the bulk of the army that would detest Loghain died at Ostagar while the large number of forces standing to assist you are pulled from Loghain's supporters. Also, while we've been running around recruiting elves and helping dwarves pick kings, Loghain has been working to establish his version of events and to set himself as a leader. There are plenty of people who believe his lies or just don't really care. And it's a lot easier to inspire courage and loyalty through inciting old acts of heroism then by killing politicians caught in their own political webs.

[Valmy]

TeenZombie wrote...
Alistair has done nothing to merit abandoning him or having him killed at the Landsmeet -- unless, of course, you are a dwarf who cares nothing about humans or elves, a evil character, or some sort of chaotic neutral PC off your meds.  Then, by all means, go for it. 

Um....did you just read what I wrote?  I never abandoned Alistair and I certainly never had him killed, he lived and I said he lived.  So I do not understand the smear and false accusations.

[Lotion Soronarr]

It's an HONOR that's not fit for a dog like him. He spat on the Grey Wardens. There's no place in them for him.



If he has to die, he might as well hang

[Valmy]

Akka le Vil wrote...
Why are you disappointed/surprised ?

Because he did not trust my judgement and give me the benefit of the doubt after all we had been through.  My reasons were sound and came at the recomendation of the senior Grey Warden and events proved them correct.  Pity Alistair and I could not see eye to eye on that point.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:31 .

[RunCDFirst]

jeckaldied wrote...
Howe becomes his right hand man because he tipped him off to the Bannorn's plot to turn over the country.

Teryn. Your father is a Teryn and not a Bann.

[jeckaldied]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's an HONOR that's not fit for a dog like him. He spat on the Grey Wardens. There's no place in them for him.

If he has to die, he might as well hang

It's not an honor, they arent a group of goody paladins saving babies. They are a group of people, the best at what they do regaurdless of their past, that sacrifice absolutly everything for the sake of stopping a blight, it's a fate I really wouldn't want to wish on anyone.

They use blood magic, they summon demons, many developer comments in promotional videos have stated wardens would gladly nuke a village from orbit if to get rid of the taint there. Alistair has this stary eyed vision of what the Wardens are, but they simply arent that.

[jeckaldied]

RunCDFirst wrote...

jeckaldied wrote...
Howe becomes his right hand man because he tipped him off to the Bannorn's plot to turn over the country.

Teryn. Your father is a Teryn and not a Bann.

Oh I know, but in my theory Loghain assumes a lot of the Bannorn is in with it.

[jeckaldied]

Triple post...

Modifié par jeckaldied, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:31 .

[Valmy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's an HONOR that's not fit for a dog like him. He spat on the Grey Wardens. There's no place in them for him.

If he has to die, he might as well hang

The Grey Wardens is like the French Foreign Legion.  Plenty of scum are sent there to be useful just as there are people who join for more honorable reasons.  Why hang him when he could be useful?  Why throw away a sword right when the final battle is about to begin?  Besides the offer was made by the head of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden, a veteran of the order whose judgement I trusted.  Without his recomendation I was already to have Loghain imprisoned or executed.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:31 .

[syllogi]

Valmy wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Alistair has done nothing to merit abandoning him or having him killed at the Landsmeet -- unless, of course, you are a dwarf who cares nothing about humans or elves, a evil character, or some sort of chaotic neutral PC off your meds.  Then, by all means, go for it. 

Um....did you just read what I wrote?  I never abandoned Alistair and I certainly never had him killed, he lived and I said he lived.  So I do not understand the smear and false accusations.

I was using the general "you", but if you choose Loghain, you're abandoning Alistair.  Yes, he had a choice, but so does your PC.  This is his moment of crisis, and you can choose to support him or not, and if you don't, you've abandoned him.

[RunCDFirst]

jeckaldied wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

jeckaldied wrote...
Howe becomes his right hand man because he tipped him off to the Bannorn's plot to turn over the country.

Teryn. Your father is a Teryn and not a Bann.

Oh I know, but in my theory Loghain assumes a lot of the Bannorn is in with it.

Ah. Well, I don't believe he thinks the Banns are in on it, since he assumed they would just unite under his banner and it's only under Bann Teagan's accusations that civil war appears to erupt.

[Axterix]

jeckaldied wrote...

You don't have to like him, you may wish a worst fate, but given the situation the Grey Warden's are in, Loghain is a good addition, anyone you can get is a good addition, the more Grey Wardens you have, the better chance one will live to kill the archdemon. Alistair not realizing that and huffing off is just childish and stupid.

Well, I can see Alistair's point of view as well.

Think about it:
1.  Logain killed his brother.
2.  Logain killed Duncan, a father figure.
3.  Logain poisoned the Earl, another father figure, who would have died if not for the demon possession.
4.  Alistair has never really felt at home anywhere. 

His true dad shipped him off to the Earl.  Then the Earl shipped him off to the Chantry.  He enjoyed the work out, but didn't really want to be a templar.  And then he gets to join the Wardens.  And, for the first time ever, he feels he really belongs.  He gets a father figure that choose him, rather than one that that drove him away.  He has a cause.  He likes the people he is with.  A good 6 months, even with the Blight starting.

And then, boom, his world starts to fall apart.  Brother dead, Duncan dead.  Other father figure poisoned, and he feels guilty about smashing that locket when he left.  All because of Loghain.  And now, the only other 2 wardens are going to add that man to the Wardens?  Suddenly he has no home anymore.  He had it all and now has lost it all to one man.

So yeah, Alistair hates his guts.  Intensely.  And I cannot blame him for it.

But since my character did get to gut the person she held responsible for ruining her life and she viewed Loghain as more valuable to the cause and sparing him combined with marriage of Alistair to the queen better for the long term health of the country, well, Alistair got told to take a walk.

[Valmy]

TeenZombie wrote...
I was using the general "you", but if you choose Loghain, you're abandoning Alistair.  Yes, he had a choice, but so does your PC.  This is his moment of crisis, and you can choose to support him or not, and if you don't, you've abandoned him.

Nonsense.  Our commitment is to the Grey Wardens and stopping the Blight.  The most senior Grey Warden in Ferelden recomended we take Loghain in and use him against the Blight and Alistair abandoned us and his commitment to the Wardens and distrusted my leadership after all we had been through and after all I had done for him.  I just wish he could have at least trusted I had everybody's best interests at heart because I did.

I presumed he would come around. Again pity.

[jbann311]

Allister was such a moron after the landsmeet.

I'm sorry to those who disagree but killing someone is not the best way to get revenge. Death is an easy way out. I started losing respect for Allister when he didn't want to be king, and wouldn't marry Anora. Then I lost it all.

Honestly I didn't care what happened to Loghain.

[Akka le Vil]

Valmy wrote...

Because he did not trust my judgement and give me the benefit of the doubt after all we had been through.My reasons were sound and came at the recomendation of the senior Grey Warden and events proved them correct.  Pity Alistair and I could not see eye to eye on that point.

You did not trust his judgement nor gave him the benefit of the doubt after all you had been through either.
Why is he the one wrong ?
And even if you were right (very hypothetical here), how can you expect from someone to accept to forgive and work with someone that killed his whole family and soiled everything he believed in ? He's human, you know, and not everybody is a heartless cold calculator, not even among the Grey Warden.

[tmp7704]

jbann311 wrote...

Allister was such a moron after the landsmeet.
I'm sorry to those who disagree but killing someone is not the best way to get revenge. Death is an easy way out.

I think it's the horses for courses thing. For some people and/or in some situations death is the best way to get revenge. If Alistair thought the best way for him to get revenge on Loghain was by killing, i really didn't see a reason to argue that he possibly doesn't know his own feelings better than i do.

[RunCDFirst]

Akka le Vil wrote...
You did not trust his judgement nor gave him the benefit of the doubt after all you had been through either.
Why is he the one wrong ?
And even if you were right (very hypothetical here), how can you expect from someone to accept to forgive and work with someone that killed his whole family and soiled everything he believed in ? He's human, you know, and not everybody is a heartless cold calculator, not even among the Grey Warden.

I was surprised I didn't get a Persuade option. Every other time I was able to talk him into some pretty crazy decisions. Good on the ole boy for sticking to his guns for once.

[Taleroth]

tmp7704 wrote...

jbann311 wrote...

Allister was such a moron after the landsmeet.
I'm sorry to those who disagree but killing someone is not the best way to get revenge. Death is an easy way out.

I think it's the horses for courses thing. For some people and/or in some situations death is the best way to get revenge. If Alistair thought the best way for him to get revenge on Loghain was by killing, i really didn't see a reason to argue that he possibly doesn't know his own feelings better than i do.

Killing is an okay means of revenge.

Running away is not.  That's the part that irks me.  If he wants revenge so badly, he should have tried anyway, not quit his duty.

It's kind of like the angry victim at the courthouse.  He's got a gun, he brought it, but he asks permission to shoot the murderer.  I don't think I've seen that movie.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:50 .

[Melra]

On my first playthrough I executed Loghain after short argument with Alistair. Loghain offered the resistance that made the companions grow into the powerful counter-darkspawn force. I had my vengeance already.



On my second playthrough I intend to spare Loghain. I rather lose Alistair than destroy one evil, just to have it replaced by another (Morrigan).