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[Valmy]

Akka le Vil wrote...
You did not trust his judgement nor gave him the benefit of the doubt after all you had been through either.
Why is he the one wrong ?
And even if you were right (very hypothetical here), how can you expect from someone to accept to forgive and work with someone that killed his whole family and soiled everything he believed in ? He's human, you know, and not everybody is a heartless cold calculator, not even among the Grey Warden.

Nothing hypothetical about it I was.  Loghain cooperated and did what was expected of him as dictated by Rhiordan and myself.  How is that hypothetical?  He was condemned to die on the field fighting the Darkspawn and that is what he did.  That was not too much mercy to ask for.  I should be a brutal butcher at all times and never ever show a bit of mercy towards my defeated enemies?  I understand he is human but he put me in charge to make the decisions and I acted on the recomendation of the organization he supposedly devoted his life to....how is that not soiling everything he believes in?  I guess I thought he believed in serving the Grey Wardens and fighting the Blight not bloody pointless vengeance.  It wasn't like killing Loghain was going to bring Duncan back or undo anything that had happened.

Further it is an inaccurate portrayal that there was any forgiveness.  If Loghain had been forgiven he would have been returned to his Teyrnate not condemned to die.

[Akka le Vil]

RunCDFirst wrote...

I was surprised I didn't get a Persuade option. Every other time I was able to talk him into some pretty crazy decisions. Good on the ole boy for sticking to his guns for once.

Good to see that NPC have a mind of their own, yep.
And you know what's sad ? Plenty of people calling him a "whiny crybaby without a spine" when he actually has one.

[tmp7704]

Taleroth wrote...

Killing is an okay means of revenge.

Running away is not.  That's the part that irks me.  If he wants revenge so badly, he should have tried anyway, not quit his duty.

I don't see why he wouldn't quit his duty at that particular point. There is literally nothing for him left that he'd want to "defend". Why exactly should he care if the Blight does burn it all?

[Valmy]

Akka le Vil wrote...
Good to see that NPC have a mind of their own, yep.
And you know what's sad ? Plenty of people calling him a "whiny crybaby without a spine" when he actually has one.

I know.  But that always seem to happen in these games.  The Male character who has emotions and a history at all is always blasted as whiny.  It was especially hilarious when it was Carth in KOTOR....I mean the guys entire planet had gotten destroyed!

[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...
I don't see why he wouldn't quit his duty at that particular point. There is literally nothing for him left that he'd want to "defend". Why exactly should he care if the Blight does burn it all?

Yeah I don't get it.  We slightly alter Loghain death sentence to 'a few days from now' instead of 'right this very second' and that is enough to render his entire life meaningless?

[Taleroth]

Akka le Vil wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

I was surprised I didn't get a Persuade option. Every other time I was able to talk him into some pretty crazy decisions. Good on the ole boy for sticking to his guns for once.

Good to see that NPC have a mind of their own, yep.
And you know what's sad ? Plenty of people calling him a "whiny crybaby without a spine" when he actually has one.

Some spine.  If he gets denied permission for vengeance, he flees.  If he really wanted Loghain dead so badly as to take it into his own hands AND had a spine, he would have killed him anyway.

[Akka le Vil]

Valmy wrote...

Nothing hypothetical about it I was.  Loghain cooperated and did what was expected of him as dictated by Rhiordan and myself.  How is that hypothetical?

It's hypothetical that you're right to spare Loghain. It may have turned okay, but that doesn't mean everyone will agree it was a good thing.

You can bet my characters will usually end up in a coffin at the end of the game, the alternatives just look far worse

  He was condemned to die on the field fighting the Darkspawn and that is what he did.  That was not too much mercy to ask for.

Or you could see it as "he was spared the indignity of dying as a criminal and was afforded the glory of dying as a hero", which is an end many would argue he clearly doesn't deserve.

I should be a brutal butcher at all times and never ever show a bit of mercy towards my defeated enemies?  I understand he is human but he put me in charge to make the decisions and I acted on the recomendation of the organization he supposedly devoted his life to....how is that not soiling everything he believes in?  I guess I thought he believed in serving the Grey Wardens and fighting the Blight not bloody pointless vengeance.  It wasn't like killing Loghain was going to bring Duncan back or undo anything that had happened.

If punishing criminal was about bringing their victims back from death, you would never punish anyone. I hardly think that justice is about resurection.
And it's not because Alistair put you in charge that it means he suddendly lost his self-awareness. You went too far, and as he's not a robot and has feelings and a sense of justice, he refused to go that far. Do you think your friend IRL would accept anything from you ? Do you think that, even if they have strong ideas about something, there isn't a point where they would say "enough" ? Alistair drawing a line in the sand and refusing to cross it strikes me as one of his most believable moment. Games usually have excessively tolerant companions in order to allow the player to play the game as he sees fit without being constantly nagged, but I doubt most people would be as elastic in their acceptance than even Alistair.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:23 .

[Taleroth]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Or you could see it as "he was spared the indignity of dying as a criminal and was afforded the glory of dying as a hero", which is an end many would argue he clearly doesn't deserve.

Is there any indication that Alistair thinks like that?

One can similarly argue that executing him after he surrenders would make him a martyr.  Nobody bothered with that consideration.

[jeckaldied]

I think their is much more Justice in having Loghain help the organization he hurt than just killing him, but some people just seem to think that Justice=Death in any situation when it involves a man killing some one close to them.

[Axterix]

Valmy wrote...

I know.  But that always seem to happen in these games.  The Male character who has emotions and a history at all is always blasted as whiny.  It was especially hilarious when it was Carth in KOTOR....I mean the guys entire planet had gotten destroyed!

Yeah, but you didn't see Princess Leia complain about that, did you?  No, instead, she was there to support Luke as he whined about losing some old geezer he'd only just met.

Seriously though, I don't mind emotions. 

That though isn't Alistair's problem.  His problem is he is weak.  Can't lead.  Spends all his time whining about Duncan's death, never mind that my human noble just lost pretty much everyone who qualifies as more than an aquaintance.  And he spends all his time making jokes at his own expense or to deflect things away, because he has no self confidence, no spine.  He doesn't know what he wants in life, just what he doesn't want.

He just makes me want to shut him down whenever a conversation option exists, even when my character basically agrees with his view points.

Far rather have Oghren, who also mourns a loss, is sad about it.  But he knows what he wants.  He isn't emo about it.

[Akka le Vil]

Taleroth wrote...

Is there any indication that Alistair thinks like that?

No, but Anora does.

jeckaldied wrote...

I think their is much more Justice in having Loghain help the organization he hurt than just killing him, but some people just seem to think that Justice=Death in any situation when it involves a man killing some one close to them.

Reparation is good, but justice is also about punishment.
Actually I would prefer him to be publicly humilated in a cage rather than dead, but the game doesn't give me any option other than "death" or "recruiting", so I take what I can take.

[Akka le Vil]

Taleroth wrote...

Some spine.  If he gets denied permission for vengeance, he flees.  If he really wanted Loghain dead so badly as to take it into his own hands AND had a spine, he would have killed him anyway.

Well, in this case it would mean you could never have Loghain in the party, and that would kinda defeat the point of allowing him to be recruited, wouldn't it ? ^^
Perhaps more about meta-gaming than real character decision.

Another way to look at it is utter disgust : he suddendly realizes that the person he thought as a friend just backstabbed him and shattered again what he thought have been home. Maybe it's just the mental killing blow that break him down. He may becomes a drunkard about that after all.

[Valmy]

Akka le Vil wrote...
It's hypothetical that you're right to spare Loghain. It may have turned okay, but that doesn't mean everyone will agree it was a good thing.

I did not spare Loghain at all.  I had him inducted with the understanding he would die fighting the Darkspawn if the Joining did not kill him first.

You can bet my characters will usually end up in a coffin at the end of the game, the alternatives just look far worse

Fair enough.  Did you play KOTOR and commit suicide when you discovered who you were to gain justice or did you work to redeem yourself?

Or you could see it as "he was spared the indignity of dying as a criminal and was afforded the glory of dying as a hero", which is an end many would argue he clearly doesn't deserve.

That has nothing to do with him.  An added benefit is it does restore people's faith in their heroes a bit and adds a bit of luster and pride to the Ferelden people.  Loghain doesn't deserve that, but it is not about deserving.  His sacrifice thus benefits the nation again as a symbolic gesture binding the nation together.

If punishing criminal was about bringing their victims back from dead, you would never punish anyone. I hardly think that justice is about bringing people from death.
And it's not because Alistair put you in charge that it means he suddendly lost his self-awareness. You went too far, and as he's not a robot and has feelings and a sense of justice, he refused to go that far. Do you think your friend IRL would accept anything from you ? Do you think that, even if they have strong ideas about something, there isn't a point where they would say "enough" ? Alistair drawing a line in the sand and refusing to cross it strikes me as one of his most believable moment. Games usually have excessively tolerant companions in order to allow the player to play the game as he sees fit without being constantly nagged, but I doubt most people would be as elastic in their acceptance than even Alistair.

Sure if I had constantly done things against his will then him saying 'enough' would make sense.  But his approval was at 100 I had taken him along and he had always endorsed my decisions completely up to then...I sort of wished he had trusted me just this one time when he disagreed.

Loghain was punished btw or maybe you think Stalin let all those people he stuck WWII penal battalions off to because that was essentailly what this was.  In my mind it was absolutely justice.

[tmp7704]

Valmy wrote...

We slightly alter Loghain death sentence to 'a few days from now' instead of 'right this very second' and that is enough to render his entire life meaningless?

Pretty much; for one, there's nothing that says Loghain is going to die in few days once you spare him, at this point of the story you have no idea how the archdemon killing works plus it is actually possible to spare Loghain permanently.

And two, Alistair has one/two things to live for at this point -- his idea of what Grey Wardens are and (optionally) the PC. His idea of what the Wardens are can be obviously different from that of the player (though it doesn't necessarily mean that the player's take is any more correct) and that becomes painfully clear in the case if you insist that the one guy who is in Alistair's eyes evil incarnate should be made a Grey Warden.

The Wardens are to Alistair his family, and you are making the person who murdered some of that family _a part of it_ -- consider an emotional impact of say, asking your sister to marry a guy who raped her "for the good of the kid"? It's not that far off from what you ask Alistair to accept. So that's one thing which was important in his life that gets tainted/gone, and the other (PC) turns out to be betrayer with either no understanding or no concern for Alistair's feelings. So yes, it pretty much leaves him with nothing?

Modifié par tmp7704, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:30 .

[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...
Pretty much; for one, there's nothing that says Loghain is going to die in few days once you spare him, at this point of the story you have no idea how the archdemon killing works plus it is actually possible to spare Loghain permanently.

I didn't either at that point.  But that was my plan.  If the joining did not kill him he would die fighitng the darkspawn.

I was a little worried when he actually joined my group...but hey it wasn't too long before I learned how it was supposed to go down.

[Hrodberht]

Valmy wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
My point has always been, if you are playing a "good" character, why in the world would you choose to keep Loghain around, knowing about his previous actions?  I've read the Stolen Throne, and listened to the party banter files, so I do appreciate that he has depth beyond what is presented in the game...but the Loghain we are presented with in the game is unapologetically evil.  It is blatantly clear. 

If you do not win the duel with Loghain, he would execute you, your party members, and Riordan.  No more Grey Wardens in Fereldan, he'll never allow new ones in, game over, darkspawn and the archdemon win.  THAT is the guy you think is more worthy than Alistair of a second chance.  I just don't get it.

Ok let me think why I decided exactly to spare him.  I took awhile agonizing over this.

First I wanted to accept his surrender for political reasons: so I would not upset his supporters and divide the country again.  After all that was my thinking for having Anora and Alistair marry.  Then when Alistair got really upset, frankly I was surprised he felt so vehemently that nothing but execution was possible...I thought maybe I should go ahead and killl him...but then when Rhiordan made his suggestion it seemed like the perfect solution.  I was a little shocked by Alistair's blood thirstyness and rather confused by his claim that getting accepted into Warden's is an honor when thieves and murderers get conscripted all the time.  I mean there is a conscription process it is not like people line up for the privlege.

Also I never kill unarmed people in these games generally unless I absolutely cannot avoid it (well in the persona my human noble play through was taking on at least).  Loghain just seemed more useful that way...then when I heard how the Archdemon had to be slain it was perfect.  Loghain, the man responsible for so much death and chaos, could now pay us all back.  Impressively Loghain understood that perfectly and did it willingly.

I hope Alistair would forgive me and return at the end but he did not.  I do feel bad about that I hoped it would work out for everybody.  At least we both lived to tell the tale though.

Hrm,, as someone else said I would kill Loghain just to get him out of the gene pool.  Look at what a backstabbing power-hungry little psycho he produced so far. You just *know* she's going to be trouble if you put Alistair on the throne solo.  Speaking of which, I'm a bit miffed that I couldn't kill her as well, and go bowling with her head. As well, I rather think that Howe killed the Couslands with Loghain's approval, I doubt he'd have risked it otherwise.  Which, if you are playing a human noble, makes Loghain partly responsible for wiping out your family.  That's a pretty good reason to kill him, his daughter, their friends, and then do heinous things to their remains. 

Modifié par Hrodberht, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:40 .

[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...
And two, Alistair has one/two things to live for at this point -- his idea of what Grey Wardens are and (optionally) the PC. His idea of what the Wardens are can be obviously different from that of the player (though it doesn't necessarily mean that the player's take is any more correct) and that becomes painfully clear in the case if you insist that the one guy who is in Alistair's eyes evil incarnate should be made a Grey Warden.

The Wardens are to Alistair his family, and you are making the person who murdered some of that family _a part of it_ -- consider an emotional impact of say, asking your sister to marry a guy who raped her "for the good of the kid"? It's not that far off from what you ask Alistair to accept. So that's one thing which was important in his life that gets tainted/gone, and the other (PC) turns out to be betrayer with either no understanding or no concern for Alistair's feelings. So yes, it pretty much leaves him with nothing?

Huh?  He told me the Grey Wardens are about doing whatever it takes to fight the Darkspawn and that includes some pretty horrible things.  In my mind I am not even doing a horrible thing I am doing a merciful thing and at the recomendation of the Grey Warden leader no less.  So what was his conception?  Did he lie was that not his conception of the Grey Wardens?

Also Alistair considers his father's best friend. one of the men most responsible for Ferelden being free from Orlais as evil incarnate?  I mean Loghain was a criminal and was going to get his but I am a little baffled Alistair wouldn't be in favor of the fallen national hero getting one last chance to serve Ferelden.  It is not like Loghain was a vile monster his entire life and we didn't owe him something.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:46 .

[Taleroth]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Some spine.  If he gets denied permission for vengeance, he flees.  If he really wanted Loghain dead so badly as to take it into his own hands AND had a spine, he would have killed him anyway.

Well, in this case it would mean you could never have Loghain in the party, and that would kinda defeat the point of allowing him to be recruited, wouldn't it ? ^^

Initiate a fight.  Let the player choose who to help or if they'll be involved at all.

Player gets an option to have Loghain.  Alistair gets to stand up for what he believes in and be a man.

Edit: Just realized something.  That by my "willing to stand up, fight, and die for what you believe in regardless of others makes you a man" definition of "being a man," Lelianna, Wynne, and Shale are all more manly than Alistair.

Modifié par Taleroth, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:52 .

[tmp7704]

Valmy wrote...

Huh?  He told me the Grey Wardens are about doing whatever it takes to fight the Darkspawn and that includes some pretty horrible things.  In my mind I am not even doing a horrible thing I am doing a merciful thing and at the recomendation of the Grey Warden leader no less.  So what was his conception?  Did he lie was that not his conception of the Grey Wardens?

Perhaps he just doesn't share the view getting Loghain onboard is "whatever it takes" given Loghain's track record? Other NPCs also have point(s) where they disagree with your ideas, like Sten not seeing why search for the Urn is really necessary part of fighting the archdemon. The only difference being you can't beat Alistair into submission when such conflict of opinions happens.

[Sarethus]

Valmy wrote...

Huh?  He told me the Grey Wardens are about doing whatever it takes to fight the Darkspawn and that includes some pretty horrible things.  In my mind I am not even doing a horrible thing I am doing a merciful thing and at the recomendation of the Grey Warden leader no less.  So what was his conception?  Did he lie was that not his conception of the Grey Wardens?

Also Alistair considers his father's best friend. one of the men most responsible for Ferelden being free from Orlais as evil incarnate?  I mean Loghain was a criminal and was going to get his but I am a little baffled Alistair wouldn't be in favor of the fallen national hero getting one last chance to serve Ferelden.  It is not like Loghain was a vile monster his entire life and we didn't owe him something.

There is a difference between doing what is necessary and doing absolutely anything. Strictly speaking Loghain is not necessary to defeat the blight. He is an optional extra.  

[JamesX]

The Option is a Proven Warrior and a Tactical Genius (Well by Lore, not in game performance) over an unproven newly made Warden.



The choice is pretty simple if you just look at cost/benefit relationship. The only reason I picked Alister is because (since I didn't read the novels) Loghain is an idiot that is trapped in the past and ill-prepared to adapt to the future.

[Valmy]

Sarethus wrote...
There is a difference between doing what is necessary and doing absolutely anything. Strictly speaking Loghain is not necessary to defeat the blight. He is an optional extra.  

If gathering soldiers and Grey Wardens to fight the blight is not necessary maybe I do not understand the meaning of the word. Strictly speaking all that is required is one Grey Warden....but assaulting the Blight all by myself is not feasible.  So I will just take help from whoever offers it.  There will be plenty of time for ceremonial beheadings and settling scores once the battle is won.

I completely understand why some of you decided differently but that was how I decided to handle the situation.

[Valmy]

tmp7704 wrote...
Perhaps he just doesn't share the view getting Loghain onboard is "whatever it takes" given Loghain's track record? Other NPCs also have point(s) where they disagree with your ideas, like Sten not seeing why search for the Urn is really necessary part of fighting the archdemon. The only difference being you can't beat Alistair into submission when such conflict of opinions happens.

Well you surely would not have Sten in your party since he murdered innocent farmers and you would clearly not agree in taking help offered from somebody who deserved death.  I mean just to be consistent.  I presume you beheaded him right there?  I mean Sten wasn't even the savior of Ferelden from Orlais like Loghain.  Yet I gave Sten a second chance because I do not turn down help to defeat the Blight.

 I was just dissapointed he didn't at least patch things up at the end I mean he got what he wanted, Loghain was dead and the Blight defeated.  It is his choice to remain bitter and angry and allow his hatred for Loghain destroy his life that is his choice but it certainly surprised me and saddened me.  Essentially he is throwing away his life for no reason.  He is free to disagree and I made sure his life was spared and told him he was free to come back at any time.  That is how my character "beats people into submission" as you call it.

Modifié par Valmy, 25 novembre 2009 - 11:43 .

[Sarethus]

Valmy wrote...

Sarethus wrote...
There is a difference between doing what is necessary and doing absolutely anything. Strictly speaking Loghain is not necessary to defeat the blight. He is an optional extra.  

If gathering soldiers and Grey Wardens to fight the blight is not necessary maybe I do not understand the meaning of the word. Strictly speaking all that is required is one Grey Warden....but assaulting the Blight all by myself is not feasible.  So I will just take help from whoever offers it.  There will be plenty of time for ceremonial beheadings and settling scores once the battle is won.

I completely understand why some of you decided differently but that was how I decided to handle the situation.

Who said I would be myself? For soldiers I believe I gathered them already. For Grey Wardens, you have me and Alistair and if you honestly need more I could recommend Avernus and could recommend making Lelianna and heck even Oghren Grey Wardens over Loghain. Also I wish that we could have made Jowan one as well. (really annoyed we were not allowed to use rite of conscription on him),  

[jeckaldied]

Sarethus wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Sarethus wrote...
There is a difference between doing what is necessary and doing absolutely anything. Strictly speaking Loghain is not necessary to defeat the blight. He is an optional extra.  

If gathering soldiers and Grey Wardens to fight the blight is not necessary maybe I do not understand the meaning of the word. Strictly speaking all that is required is one Grey Warden....but assaulting the Blight all by myself is not feasible.  So I will just take help from whoever offers it.  There will be plenty of time for ceremonial beheadings and settling scores once the battle is won.

I completely understand why some of you decided differently but that was how I decided to handle the situation.

Who said I would be myself? For soldiers I believe I gathered them already. For Grey Wardens, you have me and Alistair and if you honestly need more I could recommend Avernus and could recommend making Lelianna and heck even Oghren Grey Wardens over Loghain. Also I wish that we could have made Jowan one as well. (really annoyed we were not allowed to use rite of conscription on him),  

You know, the actual odds that 4 or 5 people needed to fight the arch demon would actually get to and win was slim, In character wise you really need every single grey warden you can possible get, If I had had my why, I would have been right of conscriptioning every tenth soldier in every army I gathered, just to make sure that archdemon could be killed for good.