122 réponses à ce sujet

[Thoragoros]

I have a level II Widow, and and a level X Mantis. Equipping the Mantis with the barrel upgrade, the Mantis is nearly maxed out on damage, and lets me regen at about 130% cooldown, whereas the Widow takes me into the negatives, and is only slightly ahead of the Mantis on damage.

As an Infiltrator who teched for damage and power regen, I already get signficant damage bonuses for my sniper rifle via my Cloak and training, and again that's ontop of the near max damage the Mantis has with the upgrades.

Add to this the fact that I'm a good enough shot to consistently hit through the 'visor' of Guardian shields to not need the piercing bonus of the Widow, and frankly, I'm really not seeing the purpose of the Widow when compared to an upgraded Mantis, or am I just missing something?

Modifié par Thoragoros, 26 février 2012 - 07:06 .

[UK Wildcat]

I'm going to be honest as I have 1000 times and explain why the Widow isn't a super-gun like [some] clueless people are believing it to be.

On bronze or silver, you can probably 1 shot enemies with a widow assuming you have enough +headshot +sniper damage or +damage. This includes centurions, guardians, phantoms and nemeses.

On gold, you 100% cannot 1 shot any of the enemies I listed above with a widow. Why? +Damage is capped or restricted with guns to only allow bullet damage to deplete shield damage before inflicting health damage. In other words, it requires at least 2 shots, or 1 power +1 shot to kill one of the above enemies on Gold.

^ With that said, it takes 2 widow shots to kill a phantom, nemesis, centurion or combat engineer on gold.

With all of that out of the way, the Widow is a very inefficient gun for gold, unless you are specced for atlas killing (which really isn't that smart since atlases will probably be the least of your worries on gold), or you have a team system using telepathy where one teammate headshots a mob, then you immediately headshot in your make-believe 2 widow tandem.

The people claiming widow is better than the other snipers on Gold don't understand the shield mechanic or are being dishonest, or really are just not very smart.

The best overall gun in the demo right now is the Carnifex; due to its low rate, ability to be scoped, very high damage, and rate of fire. It's the perfect blend of all of the things you need to dispatch an enemy on gold.

I'd have to suggest people take any other sniper rifle over widow on Gold generally due to their rates of fire (assuming you can do enough damage and don't have a widow x). Once people get widow x's and other x guns and can balance weight penalties, widow may be a consideration, but for now, it's not the top choice, and it's not even close.

On a side note, the only gun that can 1 shot kill on gold to the best of my knowledge from the demo guns is the Claymore.

[WarGriffin]

Yeah but the claymore isn't worth the weight/power lose

[UK Wildcat]

WarGriffin wrote...

Yeah but the claymore isn't worth the weight/power lose

I agree, I'm simply saying that if you want to feel like you are a boss (which is the only logical reason to use a widow anyway), then you may as well just go with a claymore.   It's heavy, can 1 shot, and you can shoot people at mid-range.  It has a horrible reload rate, just like the widow.  The claymore may make sense for Krogans, but Krogan Soldier is the only class I haven't unlocked, and I've been level 120 for a decent amount of time.

[Thoragoros]

UK Wildcat wrote...

I'm going to be honest as I have 1000 times and explain why the Widow isn't a super-gun like [some] clueless people are believing it to be.

On bronze or silver, you can probably 1 shot enemies with a widow assuming you have enough +headshot +sniper damage or +damage. This includes centurions, guardians, phantoms and nemeses.

On gold, you 100% cannot 1 shot any of the enemies I listed above with a widow. Why? +Damage is capped or restricted with guns to only allow bullet damage to deplete shield damage before inflicting health damage. In other words, it requires at least 2 shots, or 1 power +1 shot to kill one of the above enemies on Gold.

^ With that said, it takes 2 widow shots to kill a phantom, nemesis, centurion or combat engineer on gold.

With all of that out of the way, the Widow is a very inefficient gun for gold, unless you are specced for atlas killing (which really isn't that smart since atlases will probably be the least of your worries on gold), or you have a team system using telepathy where one teammate headshots a mob, then you immediately headshot in your make-believe 2 widow tandem.

The people claiming widow is better than the other snipers on Gold don't understand the shield mechanic or are being dishonest, or really are just not very smart.

The best overall gun in the demo right now is the Carnifex; due to its low rate, ability to be scoped, very high damage, and rate of fire. It's the perfect blend of all of the things you need to dispatch an enemy on gold.

I'd have to suggest people take any other sniper rifle over widow on Gold generally due to their rates of fire (assuming you can do enough damage and don't have a widow x). Once people get widow x's and other x guns and can balance weight penalties, widow may be a consideration, but for now, it's not the top choice, and it's not even close.

On a side note, the only gun that can 1 shot kill on gold to the best of my knowledge from the demo guns is the Claymore.

Exactly.

Also, with upgrades and mark II ammo types, the Mantis can 1 shot Centurians and Nemesis snipers with a headshot.

So basically, the only thing the Widow has going for it is the armor piercing of Guardian shields, which you really don't need since you can shoot through the visor.  Also, with the right ammo and upgrades, you can 1 shot guardians by aiming at their exposed arm, which is a much larger target than the visor.

[NekOoNinja]

The only advantage (?) the widow has is that you can land bodyshots and enemies die. So you can kill them even if you can't get a clear headshot. It also destroys Turrets in one hit. and in the hands of an infiltrator with armor piercing ammo II, atlases become a joke. It also goes right through Guardians without need to aim for the slot.

It's a lazy man's rifle, at least in my opinion. Mantis and Carnifex are just as lethal in the right hands.

[xrudix]

Better choice for casters ie. adept, but poor for sniper infiltrator, because you can't one shot phantom shields/hp.
Also i use it for my vanguard mantis/viper + katana, good range and cqc support.

Modifié par xrudix, 26 février 2012 - 07:13 .

[golyoscsapagy]

Widow is the best choice for a heavy sentinel. You shouldn't care about cooldowns anyway, so weight is a non-issue. RoF on higher levels (I have V or VI) is comparable to mantis. Add to this the superior damage and most importantly that it can pierce cover and enemies. You just have to know your gun, and it becomes much more efficient than mantis.

It's not a main gun, I agree, but it's the best backup weapon currently in game. Dismissing it as a crappy weapon just says you have to learn quite a bit more about the game.

[zoNiklv]

If BioWare eventually fix Stasis to give bonus damage, Widow will be my gun of choice on Gold/Platinum

[Thoragoros]

NekOoNinja wrote...

The only advantage (?) the widow has is that you can land bodyshots and enemies die. So you can kill them even if you can't get a clear headshot. It also destroys Turrets in one hit. and in the hands of an infiltrator with armor piercing ammo II, atlases become a joke. It also goes right through Guardians without need to aim for the slot.

It's a lazy man's rifle, at least in my opinion. Mantis and Carnifex are just as lethal in the right hands.

Actually, the upgrades Mantis, which is what I'm comparing the widow to, can bodyshot Assault Troops, and reduce Centurions to near zero health.

With ammo upgrades -- such as Disruptor ammo -- you can in fact succesfulyl 1 shot Centurions and Nemesis snipers with headshots.

[The_mango55]

@ UK Wildcat

Remember that we only get to face Cerberus on this demo.

The widow will be much more powerful when facing enemies with less common shields and more common armor.

[darkblade]

Widow is a subpar sniper for most classes that would really use it.

Mantis is sufficient for most classes and viper is stupidly good on a human soldier.

[Shadow of Terror]

Widow can one shot to the stomach on silver with no cloak.

Other than that, it goes through Guardians shields, A lot of damage to Atlas', can kill 2 enemies with one shot.

Honestly, I prefer the Widow, even on gold, the slightly longer cooldowns aren't a big deal, because by the time you've reloaded you gun, cloak is back and ready to use.

[Fox544]

Thoragoros wrote...

I have a level II Widow, and and a level X Mantis.

I would say thats what you missed. I would love to see the stats of a mark 10 Mantis and a mark 10 WIdow though lol.

Also don't forget the widow is a downgraded gun in ME3 from ME2. It sounds like the Black Widow is the new super sniper.

[CheetahZ1]

Widow is great with a Salarian Infiltrator. Energy Drain destroys shields+Barriers while creating a stun for a free headshot.

I don't get how the ability to destroy Atlas's at an incredibly fast rate is disregarded on Gold. Seriously the only threats are Atlas's, Phantom's, and Turrets. Widow wrecks the Atlas. Phantom's a easy enough to kill with Energy Drain+ Cloak Melee, and getting a headshot with a Mantis or Widow can be pretty difficult. Turrets can be destroyed easily by either.

The only way you're losing out on a Widow is if your reload exploiting the Mantis to match Cooldown times. Even then the time difference is miniscule and you're doing needless min maxing while losing a ton of damage against the Atlas.

[UK Wildcat]

The_mango55 wrote...

@ UK Wildcat

Remember that we only get to face Cerberus on this demo.

The widow will be much more powerful when facing enemies with less common shields and more common armor.

I'm completely aware of that, and if you do a quick little search assuming you care enough, you'll note that I refer to guns as being the best in the demo.  No idea how other factions or other gun balance will change the equation, so you and I are in complete agreement

[UK Wildcat]

CheetahZ1 wrote...

Widow is great with a Salarian Infiltrator. Energy Drain destroys shields+Barriers while creating a stun for a free headshot.

I don't get how the ability to destroy Atlas's at an incredibly fast rate is disregarded on Gold. Seriously the only threats are Atlas's, Phantom's, and Turrets. Widow wrecks the Atlas. Phantom's a easy enough to kill with Energy Drain+ Cloak Melee, and getting a headshot with a Mantis or Widow can be pretty difficult. Turrets can be destroyed easily by either.

The only way you're losing out on a Widow is if your reload exploiting the Mantis to match Cooldown times. Even then the time difference is miniscule and you're doing needless min maxing while losing a ton of damage against the Atlas.

Atlases really are not a problem on gold.  They move too slow and don't do enough damage to really kill anyone unless that person is inattentive.  Even their rockets do widow-esque damage and usually only deplete shields rather than do damage above shield damage to your main health.

The negatives to using a widow on gold are that if you miss a shot and an enemy gets in stab range you are in trouble, and due to the extra CD penalty due to the massive weight, you can easily die before bullet is reloaded and or shields / cloak are back up.

No one is arguing that widow can't be servicable, it's simply demonstrably and statistically not the best gun.  That has to go to Carnfiex under any metrics that make sense in the demo for MOST classes if not all.

* I'll just demo both guns later and show what I'm talking about if it doesn't make sense. 

Modifié par UK Wildcat, 26 février 2012 - 08:19 .

[ttchip]

UK Wildcat wrote...
Atlases really are not a problem on gold.  They move too slow and don't do enough damage to really kill anyone unless that person is inattentive.  Even their rockets do widow-esque damage and usually only deplete shields rather than do damage above shield damage to your main health.

The negatives to using a widow on gold are that if you miss a shot and an enemy gets in stab range you are in trouble, and due to the extra CD penalty due to the massive weight, you can easily die before bullet is reloaded and or shields / cloak are back up.

No one is arguing that widow can't be servicable, it's simply demonstrably and statistically not the best gun.  That has to go to Carnfiex under any metrics that make sense in the demo for MOST classes if not all.

* I'll just demo both guns later and show what I'm talking about if it doesn't make sense. 

The bolded statement is valid for any enemy. It is the sole reason people can just run by an Atlas - even if they get hit - as long as they have 1 point of shield strength.

Modifié par ttchip, 26 février 2012 - 08:27 .

[UK Wildcat]

ttchip wrote...

UK Wildcat wrote...
Atlases really are not a problem on gold.  They move too slow and don't do enough damage to really kill anyone unless that person is inattentive.  Even their rockets do widow-esque damage and usually only deplete shields rather than do damage above shield damage to your main health.

The negatives to using a widow on gold are that if you miss a shot and an enemy gets in stab range you are in trouble, and due to the extra CD penalty due to the massive weight, you can easily die before bullet is reloaded and or shields / cloak are back up.

No one is arguing that widow can't be servicable, it's simply demonstrably and statistically not the best gun.  That has to go to Carnfiex under any metrics that make sense in the demo for MOST classes if not all.

* I'll just demo both guns later and show what I'm talking about if it doesn't make sense. 

The bolded statement is valid for any enemy. It is the sole reason people can just run by an Atlas - even if they get hit - as long as they have 1 point of shield strength.

Which is what makes atlases not that important on gold, at least compared with phantoms, and also reinforces that you should play to kill elite-level enemies excluding atlases; thus widow is an inferior choice.

[Gnarlesee]

UK Wildcat wrote...

CheetahZ1 wrote...

Widow is great with a Salarian Infiltrator. Energy Drain destroys shields+Barriers while creating a stun for a free headshot.

I don't get how the ability to destroy Atlas's at an incredibly fast rate is disregarded on Gold. Seriously the only threats are Atlas's, Phantom's, and Turrets. Widow wrecks the Atlas. Phantom's a easy enough to kill with Energy Drain+ Cloak Melee, and getting a headshot with a Mantis or Widow can be pretty difficult. Turrets can be destroyed easily by either.

The only way you're losing out on a Widow is if your reload exploiting the Mantis to match Cooldown times. Even then the time difference is miniscule and you're doing needless min maxing while losing a ton of damage against the Atlas.

Atlases really are not a problem on gold.  They move too slow and don't do enough damage to really kill anyone unless that person is inattentive.  Even their rockets do widow-esque damage and usually only deplete shields rather than do damage above shield damage to your main health.

The negatives to using a widow on gold are that if you miss a shot and an enemy gets in stab range you are in trouble, and due to the extra CD penalty due to the massive weight, you can easily die before bullet is reloaded and or shields / cloak are back up.

No one is arguing that widow can't be servicable, it's simply demonstrably and statistically not the best gun.  That has to go to Carnfiex under any metrics that make sense in the demo for MOST classes if not all.

* I'll just demo both guns later and show what I'm talking about if it doesn't make sense. 

A decent squad will handle anything else than atlas anyway. Atlas pressure from 3-4 of them at the same time with phantoms can sometimes pose a problem.

The 3 other persons in the squad can easily handle phantoms, Fx a
2 asari adept and 1 engineer build. That is enough CC and damage for anything that is not an atlas.

The infiltrators job is to : Rez people , disable missions & killing the atlas´s. Using salarian infiltrator of course.

Sure you can help your team with snipes inbetween those roles. But your team should be able to handle what i did not describe upthere.


Of course you can also do it with mantis/carnifex.  But having the role as atlas killer does pose a merit in fx Noveria.

Modifié par Gnarlesee, 26 février 2012 - 11:13 .

[UK Wildcat]

In that group construction / role construction, that should work fine, that's an example of excellent team play compensating for any holes each member may have by selecting an optimal construction.

For everyday gameplay, I believe the widow is the inferior gun, but sniper builds can be good with rapid fire weapons. I do see some merit, as I said before, in an atlas killing build, but atlases go down very rapidly through ED's and Carnifex shots just from a solo infiltrator.

[Leeroi]

Carnifex requires you to stay exposed for longer periods thus results in you taking more damage. Widow benefits more from Cloak damage bonuses, its reload time has synergy with cloak recharge timers, is much better at dispatching guardians and can work just as well for dispatching phantoms if not faster if you specced Energy drain correctly. Widow is the superior gun in terms of survivability no contest. Just try to solo Gold with a carnifex and post your achievement while I post mine with a widow and we'll see who fares better, hm? The crux of the matter doesn't lie within widow's damage being wasted because it can only take defences down without going into HP (which may be a bug - I've alerted a few developers and it's under investigation), the more important thing is whether your Energy drain can take care of defences in 1 hit. If it can - Widow is strong on Gold and Carnifex can't hold its own in terms of damage output. If your energy drain is weak ... well then your build isn't optimised for the widow and you might as well take the carnifex.

That's my impressions so far.

[Sabbatine]

UK Wildcat wrote...
On gold, you 100% cannot 1 shot any of the enemies I listed above with a widow. Why? +Damage is capped or restricted with guns to only allow bullet damage to deplete shield damage before inflicting health damage. In other words, it requires at least 2 shots, or 1 power +1 shot to kill one of the above enemies on Gold.

Your post started off with so much promise and went down hill so quickly.  First off, the Widow is actually more efficient on gold difficulty, not less.  You don't need anything more damaging than the mantis to one shot most enemies on bronze and silver but even the mantis is inefficient compared to the viper which can kill multiple enemies in the same amount of time the widow and mantis can kill only one.

Now back to gold difficulty, an infiltrator using tactical cloak with a widow can one shot many of the enemies and do massive damage to enemies capable of surviving.  The widow becomes more efficient than the mantis on this difficulty but I think the viper still wins out over all.

UK Wildcat wrote...
The people claiming widow is better than the other snipers on Gold don't understand the shield mechanic or are being dishonest, or really are just not very smart.

It doesn't sound like you understand the shield mechanic because it exists on all difficulty levels, not just gold.

UK Wildcat wrote...
The best overall gun in the demo right now is the...

Ohh boy, I love it when people start a sentence like this...  The best overall gun really only applies to people at level one.  If you're at level 20 you should be using the gun that best compliments your class and spec.  Four players using carnifexes on gold difficulty would not be better than four people using guns that best compliment their spec.  Sometimes the carnifex is that weapon, but usually it isn't.

UK Wildcat wrote...
I'd have to suggest people take any other sniper rifle over widow on Gold...

You have that backwards.  People should take any other sniper rifle on bronze and silver as the widow's extra damage is wasted on enemies who have too little hp.

Modifié par Sabbatine, 26 février 2012 - 11:58 .

[UK Wildcat]

Sabbatine, you are posting nonsense, I won't waste time addressing the same crap that's been debunked over and over.

You aren't one-shotting anything on gold with a widow except for assault troopers and guardians.

[UK Wildcat]

Leeroi wrote...

Carnifex requires you to stay exposed for longer periods thus results in you taking more damage. Widow benefits more from Cloak damage bonuses, its reload time has synergy with cloak recharge timers, is much better at dispatching guardians and can work just as well for dispatching phantoms if not faster if you specced Energy drain correctly. Widow is the superior gun in terms of survivability no contest. Just try to solo Gold with a carnifex and post your achievement while I post mine with a widow and we'll see who fares better, hm? The crux of the matter doesn't lie within widow's damage being wasted because it can only take defences down without going into HP (which may be a bug - I've alerted a few developers and it's under investigation), the more important thing is whether your Energy drain can take care of defences in 1 hit. If it can - Widow is strong on Gold and Carnifex can't hold its own in terms of damage output. If your energy drain is weak ... well then your build isn't optimised for the widow and you might as well take the carnifex.

That's my impressions so far.

You have tactical cloak and fast recharge so you aren't exposed unless you are bad.  If you are good, even if your cooldowns are down (which isn't as frequent with a carnifex as a widow), you'll be near cover.

Widow doesn't benefit more from cloak damage bonuses on gold vs shielded opponents, because there is a mechanic that means you can only do shield damage on your shot.   It could be +4katrillion % damage and you still wouldn't kill an enemy with shields in one shot.

If you can energy drain in one hit, and then headshot an enemy in one shot with a carnifex, which you can, how could the widow possibly be better?  Hint: It's not.

The only way the widow would be better is if the Devs looked into your opinion of what must be a bug and changed the mechanic so that a widow could do more than shield damage on Gold.

On Gold, the widow simply doesn't compare to a Carnifex.  I don't believe it's as strong as a mantis either, because unlike the widow, vs shielded enemies Mantis will actually benefit from the +sniper damage.

This is my last post here.  It's a co-op game anyway, so I don't have to play with people who play sub-optimally.  You guys can do whatever you like, and present whatever nonsense you want, and eventually people will simply test things out for themselves.

Modifié par UK Wildcat, 27 février 2012 - 12:10 .