106 réponses à ce sujet

[BigKevSexyMan]

Why does everyone seem to think that Morrigan only wants that god-child so that she can possess it?

It just doesn't seem like something morrigan would really do.  Morrigan is a person where the ends justify the means, but she isn't downright evil enough to do something to someone else that she would not want happening to her.

When at the anvil, if you have a high enough coercion skill, Morrigan will suggest we keep the anvil, but if you threaten to put her in there, then she backs down and, I think, sees your point.

The question I have is, what else would an uncorrupted old god be used for?  Also, what exactly was the corrupting factor for the old gods?  Revenge?  Vanity? Something else? 
In the dialogue in redcliffe about the god-child, she says that she wants to see the old god restored to what it was.

I really think there is more than just a power play going on here, although I wouldn't dismiss it entirely.  The problem is that I just can't quite put my finger on it.

[SilkyChicken]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

The question I have is, what else would an uncorrupted old god be used for? 

More like what couldn't it be used for?  That's the thing: it would be too powerful.  It would be like a toddler the size of GOD.  Who's going to say no to it when it wants a pony?

[DaneWolf]

Maybe that'll be the new main charakter in Dragon Age 2?!? No... Not really while I'm thinking it now... You have a choice to descline to Morrigan so... I guess it would not... But it COULD be cool!!

[HoLyEmperor]

Speculation is speculation.



Morrigan is more "evil" than Flemeth in some ways (at least the Flemeth we see in-game). Morrigan says it was Flemeth's plan all along that she should do the ritual. Thus, it would be FLEMETH who intended to possess the demon child, no?



Morrigan is ultimately about power and survival. And, if the plot is properly progressed, she knows all of Flemeth's secrets. Morrigan herself might not know what she'll do with a demon child, but knowing Morrigan, she'll do whatever ends up being best for herself whether that means raising it, killing it, or possessing it.



IMO.

[BigKevSexyMan]

Yeah, there are a lot of possibilities for expansion packs and sequels. Who knows, maybe the Grey wardens will be your possible enemies for one of them. It may be a possibility that the darkspawn will rally around the uncorrupted child, or possibly try to corrupt the child for a new blight. The Grey wardens might still have a link with the child and may be able to sense the child, and perhaps try to kill the child.

[HoLyEmperor]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

Yeah, there are a lot of possibilities for expansion packs and sequels. Who knows, maybe the Grey wardens will be your possible enemies for one of them. It may be a possibility that the darkspawn will rally around the uncorrupted child, or possibly try to corrupt the child for a new blight. The Grey wardens might still have a link with the child and may be able to sense the child, and perhaps try to kill the child.

Or, just as likely, Morrigan doesn't play into any future content.  Your party scatters after the main quest is done.  I personally am more interested in exploring Orlais with Leliana, then going off with Sten to see his homeland.  But that's just me.

Not to mention, the pure good ending doesn't end up with Morrigan having a demon child.  Instead, she ends up as a power behind the scenes to the Empress of Orlais.   This would be far more interesting to me, also.

Just saying.

Modifié par HoLyEmperor, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[Dakota Strider]

I got the impression, that Morrigan really did not wish to "wield" the god child, but wanted a return of at least one of the old gods. She makes it no secret, that she despises the Chantry and the Maker, and it seems this is her and Flemeth's strategy to bring back some balance.



I kind of see it as a comparison, as the druids, or other "pagan" religions of Old Europe trying to resist the spread of Christianity.



I do not think Morrigan's ego is so swelled, that she thinks she will actually be in control of the new, Old God, when he matures. However, she will be in position to be the #1 high priestess of this god. And I think that would be enough power, to satisfy even her.

[bobsmyuncle]

That is a very big spoiler to put in the title...



Anyway, she was good friends with my mage so when I pressed her, she told me that "some things are worth preserving" and, IIRC, that she wanted to teach it to appreciate where it came from. I don't really think she wants to possess or use the old god so much as she is much more interested in the old ways and can't stand the Chantry. She hates the darkspawn for corrupting something she cares about, and I personally think she wants to keep on the move so she can't be caught by them. I think she wants to give the old god an escape from its underground prison and teach it to protect itself.



The Chantry would be completely livid but I don't think she has "evil" motives for wanting to do what she does.

[HoLyEmperor]

bobsmyuncle wrote...
The Chantry would be completely livid but I don't think she has "evil" motives for wanting to do what she does.

I didn't suggest she had "evil" motives for performing the ritual.  It wasn't even her idea, after all, it was Flemeth's.  

Morrigan is a strong character though, and her center is power and survival.  There's no doubt, at least in my mind, that if she has her child she'll exploit it as far as it can be exploited. 

But that's not the only ending to DAO.  It's an option, and therefore it seems unlikely (at least to me) that it will ever be picked up as the next main plot.  The "Origins" title itself almost hints that the next main plot will be entirely unrelated to the characters we've seen so far . . .

Modifié par HoLyEmperor, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:13 .

[BigKevSexyMan]

I disagree that it won't get picked up. Judging from what I've been reading, the morrigan/god-child angle is the most talked about post story angle there is so far.





Also, sorry about the title, I wasn't thinking about the title really, so my bad. Although it's not really a spoiler unless you already know what I'm talking about.

[bobsmyuncle]

Well that remark wasn't directed at you so much as suggestions that she wants to possess the child or become its priestess or what have you because she's power hungry. Survival is a big motivator for her, I agree, and I think this extends to wanting things she feels are important to survive (like Old Gods).

Anyway, I have strong suspicions that this kid is going to be an addition to canon. Mostly because of remarks from David Gaider about how Morrigan was one of the first elements they came up with, the way she is prominent in art and advertisements for the game, and the fact that the Old Gods are just too darn useful a plot point to pass up.

Otherwise the next two games risk rehashing the plot with Blights #6 and #7. Why not mix it up with some Chantry defying and Old God saving with a little darkspawn kicking just for old times' sake?

edit: on the other hand Gaider is a terrible person who likes to fan the flames of speculation and we probably shouldn't listen to a damn thing he says <_<

Modifié par bobsmyuncle, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[Fishy]

HoLyEmperor wrote...

bobsmyuncle wrote...
The Chantry would be completely livid but I don't think she has "evil" motives for wanting to do what she does.

I didn't suggest she had "evil" motives for performing the ritual.  It wasn't even her idea, after all, it was Flemeth's.  

Morrigan is a strong character though, and her center is power and survival.  There's no doubt, at least in my mind, that if she has her child she'll exploit it as far as it can be exploited. 

But that's not the only ending to DAO.  It's an option, and therefore it seems unlikely (at least to me) that it will ever be picked up as the next main plot.  The "Origins" title itself almost hints that the next main plot will be entirely unrelated to the characters we've seen so far . . .

Survival come with POWER and vice versa.
When you're in the Orzammaar Slug .. She say something along the line
-Why they live like that?Why they don't FIGHT BACK?Are they stupid?

Also when she said what man want from woman .. it's that they are WEAK and find them attractive  , i litterally laughed .Most of what she say during the whole game  = Verity .



Most of the time my action was not guided by me but my companion.For instance i destroyed the Anvil because Shale would attack me.I told shale also . I only destroyed the Anvil because i value your friendship.But outside of it .. i wanted the anvil intact(i got a sweet approbation bonus on that )


For Instance i did not corrupt the andraste dust because leliana would attack me.My action in the game was most of the time   not by my desire but me wanting to keep my companions.

For Instance allistair annoy me .. You got a -5 if you tell him that you don't like Duncan lol .. What a frigging Brat.
I hate this moron.I play a Dalish elf .... and normaly dalish elf don't like much human!Especialy the whole circumstance about his visit and Tamlen.So the *judge* my character because i don't like his Tap dog?

Morrigan .. She's not dumbwitted/brainwashed by the chantry or the   Ferelden society.Most of the time her point make a lot of sense.

[Eonassassin]

I WILL find you Morrigan! you just have to wait till the expansion pack!

I think the only way to be sure about what her plans are is by finding her and asking her, and this would be an epic quest

[Taerda]

my speculation is simple: Flemish wanted Morrigan to be pregnant with a god-child at the time she takes over Morrigan's body ... that way, the next body after Morrigan's would be the god-child's.



I know this is most likely wrong but that is what my characters would most have likely thought.

[HoLyEmperor]

bobsmyuncle wrote...
Otherwise the next two games risk rehashing the plot with Blights #6 and #7. Why not mix it up with some Chantry defying and Old God saving with a little darkspawn kicking just for old times' sake?

edit: on the other hand Gaider is a terrible person who likes to fan the flames of speculation and we probably shouldn't listen to a damn thing he says <_<

I just see so many landmines... I've played through three times and only 1 of my characters has survived the first main plot.  The second plot therefore cannot rely on the same main character (thus the speculation of the demon child becomming the main character). 

The other major landmine: they've already done the gibbering horde of insane world destroying "other dimensional" beasts.  They put that right out in front.  Usually you save that for the third episode of the trilogy, because frankly it's hard to top.  Some intrigue between neighboring countries, maybe a Crusade by the Qunari... all that seems a little weak in comparison to a Blight.

So, here's how the next plot goes.  You make a new character.  It won't be a grey warden.  The "origins" will be more diverse:  ferelden, qunari, orlesean, etc.  The demon child will have grown up, and has now entered the fade and is organizing a seige on the black city itself.  Through your choices in developing your new character, you can decide to help or thwart the demon child.  Either decision may be catastrophic... (leading into DA3).

[HoLyEmperor]

double

Modifié par HoLyEmperor, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:44 .

[Original182]

My personal opinion is that Flemeth wants to have the power of the Old God.

Flemeth intends to possess Morrigan, based on what Morrigan knows of the grimoire. Once Morrigan is possessed by Flemeth, Flemeth can then raise the child, and then possess the child at a later time to become godlike.

Morrigan may have non-evil intentions like just wanting to preserve the Old God when Flemeth first told her of the plan, but Flemeth obviously didn't tell her the real plan.

Modifié par Original182, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:42 .

[trashmonk]

Original182 wrote...

My personal opinion is the Flemeth wants to have the power of the Old God.

Flemeth intends to possess Morrigan, based on what Morrigan knows of the grimoire. Once Morrigan is possessed by Flemeth, Flemeth can then raise the child, and then possess the child at a later time to become godlike.

Morrigan may have non-evil intentions like just wanting to preserve the Old God when Flemeth first told her of the plan, but Flemeth obviously didn't tell her the real plan.

But I thought that the whole point of the Grey Warden's sacrifice is that the a soul can not occupy the same space as that of an Old God's soul...

If Flemeth tried to possess a child with the soul of an Old God, wouldn't she just be destroyed? If so, what the hell is the point in obtaining the Old God soul anyway?

I guess you could argue that Flemeth might be an exception to this rule because she has had her soul intertwined with a demon's or whatever that junk was about, but it still seems like a cheap gimping of a rule they set up in the narrative. =/

EDIT : Point being, I think it's more likely that the Old God will instead be trained to be a lackey of some sort to Flemeth or to Morrigan if we really have seen the last of Flemeth...then again she did seem pretty confident in herself, not really caring if you take the Grimoire...

EDIT #2 (Now with stupid optimism and infatuation surrounding Morrigan!) : Maybe Morrigan is actually going to find a way to destroy the Darkspawn for good using the power of her Witch-trained, Old God soul-ed child and live with the Grey Warden in eternal happiness for ever and ever.

Modifié par trashmonk, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:48 .

[Eonassassin]

HolyEmperor if you ruined DA2 for me after reading your post I am going to hate you, gawd I need to stop reading this morrigan speculation threads.... lol

[Lughsan35]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

Why does everyone seem to think that Morrigan only wants that god-child so that she can possess it?

It just doesn't seem like something morrigan would really do.  Morrigan is a person where the ends justify the means, but she isn't downright evil enough to do something to someone else that she would not want happening to her.

When at the anvil, if you have a high enough coercion skill, Morrigan will suggest we keep the anvil, but if you threaten to put her in there, then she backs down and, I think, sees your point.

The question I have is, what else would an uncorrupted old god be used for?  Also, what exactly was the corrupting factor for the old gods?  Revenge?  Vanity? Something else? 
In the dialogue in redcliffe about the god-child, she says that she wants to see the old god restored to what it was.

I really think there is more than just a power play going on here, although I wouldn't dismiss it entirely.  The problem is that I just can't quite put my finger on it.

We aren't given any reason I could find in two play throughs that stated exactly why the old gods got so corrupted...

I would be willing to Hazard a guess that plays out like so:

This is based on understanding both viewpoints as far as Chantry and Mages are concerned.

The Chantry would have us believe that because Mages reached out to the Golden City in the Fade that they corrupted it with their own pride and greed and they became the first of the abominations...

Andraste had already led a crusade against the Devinter imperium to free her people from bondage...

Mages would have you believe that this corruption is not their fault and its the weak training of some magi that allowed this to happen. 

Both could ultimately be correct. 

Andraste's purge and dying back of so many Magi in the fighting could have created an unnatural balance in Nature.

Nature in seeking to balance out the overweening Pride of Andraste and the Chantry COULD have emboldened some of the lesser mages to more power by giving them demonic power to 'balance' the excessive amounts of 'light' in the world.  

In turn in their Pride the Chantry continued to exterminate and collar magi and make them weak keeping the imbalance in place, leading to the corruption 'adapting' and taking a different form, The Broodmothers, who took all comers unto them and birthed all manner of horrors to fight the 'light' of andraste's overzealous minions...

Eventually THEY were on the brink of extinction and viola Nature again adapts someone drinks their Blood and survives ... the Grey Wardens are born and they kill back the hordes of darkness using what little light was left and going about their business afterwards keeping watch...

They both see saw back and forth Light and Dark each vying for supremacy...however now their is the Grey attempting to keep them in balance.

Better questions are Why don't the Grey Wardens ever find ALL the Broodmama's and put them down and make sure its as hard as possible for the Dark Spawn to return with an Archdemon? 
--Is it possible they FEAR how much natural Backlash that might create for something even more horrofic?
-----I'd say probably.  Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

The Blame can be spread equally on Magi and Chantry if each wasn't Prideful in their pursuits of THEIR ends and means solely they wouldn't need to be slapped back to reality by one another..

:innocent:

[HoLyEmperor]

trashmonk wrote...
If Flemeth tried to possess a child with the soul of an Old God, wouldn't she just be destroyed? If so, what the hell is the point in obtaining the Old God soul anyway?

I guess you could argue that Flemeth might be an exception to this rule because she has had her soul intertwined with a demon's or whatever that junk was about, but it still seems like a cheap gimping of a rule they set up in the narrative. =/

Nah, Flemeth would eat the baby old god.  "Flemeth" is most likely a powerful Fade spirit, not any kind of human.  Morrigan herself even calls her an abomination.  

And we've seen examples in-game where multiple beings can be in control of a body (connor and the desire demon, for example).  The demon is in control but it's obviously not very powerful, and Connor manages to break through to speak.  The spirit that is Flemeth, on the other hand, is very powerful.

[HoLyEmperor]

Lughsan35 wrote...
We aren't given any reason I could find in two play throughs that stated exactly why the old gods got so corrupted...

As far as I can tell, the "old gods" are just insanely powerful but mortal dragons.  A  dragon is capable of creating a cult in Haven, as we saw.

The "archdemon" is just a blighted dragon (compare to the sloth demon in bear form... just a bear with spikes coming out, as the archdemon is just a dragon with spikes).  It's probably more than the sum of its parts (dragon + dark spawn infection) though.  Instead of merely creating a cult of humans, it is able to organize and lead the otherwise chaotic dark spawn. 

The dark spawn likely seek out things to corrupt. When they find a slumbering dragon, they likely have some ritual to make it their "god"

[Original182]

trashmonk wrote...

But I thought that the whole point of the Grey Warden's sacrifice is that the a soul can not occupy the same space as that of an Old God's soul...

If Flemeth tried to possess a child with the soul of an Old God, wouldn't she just be destroyed? If so, what the hell is the point in obtaining the Old God soul anyway?

I guess you could argue that Flemeth might be an exception to this rule because she has had her soul intertwined with a demon's or whatever that junk was about, but it still seems like a cheap gimping of a rule they set up in the narrative. =/

The soul of an Old God will kill someone with a soul, but it won't hurt a conceived ovum in such an infant stage for unknown reasons. My guess is that it is only fatal if it merges with a mature soul during the initial transfer.
As for Flemeth not killing herself once she possesses the god child, maybe being a child somehow neutralizes the fatal nature of the Old God. So she can then safely possess the child later.
Maybe Flemeth is powerful enough to ward herself against the fatal nature of merging with an Old God. If she knows the ritual to possess daughters to live forever, and also knows the ritual to trap an Old God into an infant, we can probably be sure that she will know how to possess an Old God, and take the power for her own without dying.

I guess your arguments are quite valid, but just that trying to become a god is just the kind of thing that Flemeth would do in her quest for power. Her existence so far is to extend her life using her daughters, so it's only natural that once she possesses Morrigan, she would in turn possess the god-child.

EDIT : Point being, I think it's more likely that the Old God will instead be trained to be a lackey of some sort to Flemeth or to Morrigan if we really have seen the last of Flemeth...then again she did seem pretty confident in herself, not really caring if you take the Grimoire...

EDIT #2 (Now with stupid optimism and infatuation surrounding Morrigan!) : Maybe Morrigan is actually going to find a way to destroy the Darkspawn for good using the power of her Witch-trained, Old God soul-ed child and live with the Grey Warden in eternal happiness for ever and ever.

I'm not sure if an Old God will be willing to be a lackey, and not just destroy Flemeth and Morrigan on the spot.

As for Morrigan using the god child to destroy the Darkspawn, we've seen how selfish Morrigan is. It's more like Morrigan wants to use the god child to teach the Chantry and the world a lesson. That would be more like Morrigan.

Modifié par Original182, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:13 .

[Element CL]

I don't like the god child plot line personally. It seems to cheat the story of the archdemons a little bit and waters it down. I say, after the grey warden sacrfice, an archdemon gone should be an archdemon gone. No leftovers or escapes.

[Rugaru]

Hmm, ok it is not the old gods soul that destroys the soul of the warden. It is the corruption of the blight added to the old god, that is what eradicates the warden. A pure old god would be more likely to be able to possess a body without destroying it.



The god child is not an archdemon, the ritual that Morrigan does purifies the taint from teh archdemon making a pure old god, this pure old god then "possess" the "empty" fetus to be born later in its non corrupted new pure body.



As to the future of the child, it does say that the darkspawn seek out the old gods to corrupt thus beginning a new blight. So it is possible that when the child is born the darkspawn will be all over the place trying to corrupt it....