38 réponses à ce sujet

[Chiffmonkey]

Remember Mass Effect 1's first mission? Saren is after the prothean beacon while being controlled by the Reapers. This is a clue right from the start that the Protheans had the Reapers nervous of their tech even long after their demise. So we know that the Protheans are the key to defeating the Reapers already.

[themightyking]

Saren wasn't on Eden Prime looking for the Crucible. He's looking for the Cipher so that he could eventually find the Conduit on Ilos.

That's like saying that it isn't a Deus Ex Machina because the clues to the Crucible are found on Mars, a planet already inhabited by humans before the events of ME3. It's a weak connection at best.

[Aimi]

There are much better reasons for the Crucible not being an example of deus ex machina.

For instance, the Crucible does not appear out of nowhere during the counterattack to liberate Earth, controlled by a hitherto-unseen Javik and the Prothean VI, and rescuing an allied fleet on the brink of destruction - less "eleventh hour" than "eleventh hour and fifty-nine minutes".

No, they devote pretty much an entire game to building this thing, and give vague hints in other games (especially Lair of the Shadow Broker) that a Prothean superweapon might be lurking around the corner. That's not deus ex machina, it's just a plot device. (I wouldn't describe it as a "MacGuffin", but that's mostly because I don't like being overly jargonistic.)

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

There are much better reasons for the Crucible not being an example of deus ex machina.

For instance, the Crucible does not appear out of nowhere during the counterattack to liberate Earth, controlled by a hitherto-unseen Javik and the Prothean VI, and rescuing an allied fleet on the brink of destruction - less "eleventh hour" than "eleventh hour and fifty-nine minutes".

No, they devote pretty much an entire game to building this thing, and give vague hints in other games (especially Lair of the Shadow Broker) that a Prothean superweapon might be lurking around the corner. That's not deus ex machina, it's just a plot device. (I wouldn't describe it as a "MacGuffin", but that's mostly because I don't like being overly jargonistic.)

Fully agreed.

Now, the fact that it isn't a deus ex machina doesn't mean it couldn't have been handled better. ME2 was already so disconnected from the Reaper plot that throwing in 'search for ancient technology to beat the Reapers' actually would have improved it's relevance.

Especially with the bit about the Collectors being Protheans. As soon as we learned that, we could have had a story mission (or character mission) tied to investigating Prothean artifacts to give us a clue about what we were facing, and how to beat it.

[Allworkandlowpay]

Really though, how else are you going to defeat a legion of seemingly indestructible space squid without some type of hail mary weapon? There's really only three ways to make the plot reasonably conclude in a galactic victory:

1) Shepard and crew build ancient super-weapon to defeat even older threat. This is what the developers went with, and granted iIt has it's inherent weaknesses, namely being that it dilutes the importance of the protagonists' actions greatly. That said, it's reasonable in the story, and doesn't involve major suspensions of disbelief.

2) Shepard fights through enemy lines to Reaper "homeworld" to upload race killing virus. I actually expected them to go this route, and am happy they decided not to. I felt like they hinted at how one could rewrite machines with Legion's loyalty quest, but this was played out in Independence Day previously, and would still be just as silly and unbelievable in Mass Effect.

3) Shepard unites all the fleets of the galaxy together and wipes out the Reaper threat. Again, a silly idea, considering it was already stated that a large chunk of the galactic fleet was already stationed over the Citadel, and we saw in ME1 how easily a Sovereign class Reaper chewed through most of those ships. If this worked, they might as well end the game with Anderson telling Shepard: "We beat them not because we had bigger brawn or a brighter mind, but because we had something machines can never have ... heart." CAPTAIN PLANET!

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

Really though, how else are you going to defeat a legion of seemingly indestructible space squid without some type of hail mary weapon? There's really only three ways to make the plot reasonably conclude in a galactic victory:

1) Shepard and crew build ancient super-weapon to defeat even older threat. This is what the developers went with, and granted iIt has it's inherent weaknesses, namely being that it dilutes the importance of the protagonists' actions greatly. That said, it's reasonable in the story, and doesn't involve major suspensions of disbelief.

2) Shepard fights through enemy lines to Reaper "homeworld" to upload race killing virus. I actually expected them to go this route, and am happy they decided not to. I felt like they hinted at how one could rewrite machines with Legion's loyalty quest, but this was played out in Independence Day previously, and would still be just as silly and unbelievable in Mass Effect.

3) Shepard unites all the fleets of the galaxy together and wipes out the Reaper threat. Again, a silly idea, considering it was already stated that a large chunk of the galactic fleet was already stationed over the Citadel, and we saw in ME1 how easily a Sovereign class Reaper chewed through most of those ships. If this worked, they might as well end the game with Anderson telling Shepard: "We beat them not because we had bigger brawn or a brighter mind, but because we had something machines can never have ... heart." CAPTAIN PLANET!

I disagree about option 1 undermining the acions of everyone involved.  It's pretty mch Star Control 2's plot rebooted, and if you played Star  Control 2, you know it was handled well, and in a way that made everyone's actions quite relevant.  Without the Utwig and Supox, for instance, the player would have been in even bigger time crunch, w/o the Chmmr, the Deus Ex Machina would not have been powerful enough, without the generosity of the Spathi, or the Greed of the Druuge, there'd have been no way to divert the Illwrath from the Chenjesu homeworld (thus, no Chmmr, at least, not before the Kohr Ah[SC2's reapers], wiped everyone out), etc.

So I don't think the actions everyone takes will be irrelevant just because of the Deus Ex Machina (or whatever you choose to refer to it as), far from it.

Modifié par The_Crazy_Hand, 27 février 2012 - 07:05 .

[deimosmasque]

Wow... someone referenced Star Control 2 and Precursors. I was of the belief that I was the only one who was completely aware of that game. My favorite sci-fi game since Mass Effect.

In many ways it's th precursor to Mass Effect's entire plot line. The Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah want to destroy all life while the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za want to enslave it. Sounds like what we know of the Reapers and what the script of the Prothean is saying about it's culture.

There is a lot of Star Control 2 in Mass Effect, and that is nothing but a good thing.

God I miss Star Control.

[Evercrow]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

I disagree about option 1 undermining the acions of everyone involved.  It's pretty mch Star Control 2's plot rebooted, and if you played Star  Control 2, you know it was handled well, and in a way that made everyone's actions quite relevant.  Without the Utwig and Supox, for instance, the player would have been in even bigger time crunch, w/o the Chmmr, the Deus Ex Machina would not have been powerful enough, without the generosity of the Spathi, or the Greed of the Druuge, there'd have been no way to divert the Illwrath from the Chenjesu homeworld (thus, no Chmmr, at least, not before the Kohr Ah[SC2's reapers], wiped everyone out), etc.

So I don't think the actions everyone takes will be irrelevant just because of the Deus Ex Machina (or whatever you choose to refer to it as), far from it.

Wow, it only hitted me just know - this IS reminding me of Star Control 2.Good parallels,man .
Now i know i will enjoy ME3 story. Because I'm big fan of SC2, even have some self-made ringtones

[deimosmasque]

You've made ringtones! Holy crap, man! I wish I had thought of that before now.

I actually have an 3DO copy, even though I never have owned a 3DO in my life. Just seemed right to find and buy. Still have the floppies for SC2 in storage as well.

And we can't deny that the Syreen remind us of the Asari.

[themightyking]

daqs wrote...

There are much better reasons for the Crucible not being an example of deus ex machina.

For instance, the Crucible does not appear out of nowhere during the counterattack to liberate Earth, controlled by a hitherto-unseen Javik and the Prothean VI, and rescuing an allied fleet on the brink of destruction - less "eleventh hour" than "eleventh hour and fifty-nine minutes".

No, they devote pretty much an entire game to building this thing, and give vague hints in other games (especially Lair of the Shadow Broker) that a Prothean superweapon might be lurking around the corner. That's not deus ex machina, it's just a plot device. (I wouldn't describe it as a "MacGuffin", but that's mostly because I don't like being overly jargonistic.)

If this were just one game in the series I agree with you.

However, since this is over the course of three games, multiple hardcovers, and comic books, the lack of compelling evidence of a prothean superweapon existing makes me disagree. The existing links between the other media and the Crucible are, quoting you, "vague". 

[deimosmasque]

@themightyking. Is it lazy writing? Yeah to a degree it is. But it's not a Deus Ex Machina any more than the Doctor's Sonic Screwdriver.

 The idea of the Crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina or a MacGuffin or anything like that. It's just a lazy solution. It isn't a plot device that comes at the very last minute (if Shep was searching the entire galaxy and found the Crucible one or two missions before the end of the game it would be a Deus Ex Machina) and it isn't introduced as a useless object that drives the plot forward (if it was a MacGuffin it would be introduced early yet play no part in resolving the plot.)

Instead, if you really pushed it, you could call the Crucible a Chekhov's Gun since in the first Act (Mass Effect 1) it was mentioned, by Vigil, that the Prothean's were developing countermeasures against the Reapers.

Even the Chekhov's Gun term doesn't fit perfectly though.  In truth, at worst, it's lazy writing.

Modifié par deimosmasque, 27 février 2012 - 08:15 .

[deimosmasque]

I wanted to added that "Expanded Universe" does not and should not be a requirement to play the games. At best it should be nice addition to the games to fill in blanks, and while they may be 'canon' they should never hold the same weight as the visual media the mythos takes.

The games should, and always will, stand alone. The expanded content are nothing more than 'extras' for the hardcore fan, but should always be viewed as just slightly more than fan fiction.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

deimosmasque wrote...

I wanted to added that "Expanded Universe" does not and should not be a requirement to play the games. At best it should be nice addition to the games to fill in blanks, and while they may be 'canon' they should never hold the same weight as the visual media the mythos takes.

The games should, and always will, stand alone. The expanded content are nothing more than 'extras' for the hardcore fan, but should always be viewed as just slightly more than fan fiction.

The games dont stand alone anymore. Not with Kai Leng and Kailee Sanders both having parts to play in ME3 this time around. The comics also play into ME2 and ME3 between seeing Liara getting Shep's body, Cerberus taking over Omega, and Vega getting his orders to be Shep's guard/doorman.

[themightyking]

deimosmasque wrote...

 It isn't a plot device that comes at the very last minute...

But where do you exactly draw the line at when something becomes a Deus Ex Machina plot device? At the last minute before conclusion? The last hour? The last two hours? I get it for you, you've played ME1 and ME2. Lets say conservatively you've put in 40 hours to the ME Universe. Lets say ME3 is another 20 hour experience focusing on the discovery of the Crucible. So an entire third of your ME experience is dedicated to this goal. On this note, I agree with you.

However, some people have put in the neighborhood of 100 hours on ME including the games, novels, and comic books. For those that spend that much time on it, to spend a smaller fraction of their time discovering a super weapon is where I disagree with your point. 

Also, you are right in that people shouldn't have to read (HURTS MY EYES) to enjoy the ME game. However, as long as Bioware is making increasing connections to the expanded universe, you can't disregard everything that happens beyond the video games. 

[MAZ77]

So, the elegant way NOT to turn a win-button into a deus ex machina is to introduce it at the beginning of the third part of a trilogy and make the protagonists fight their way through to it?

The Reapers come and destroy everything, we are doomed - but someone found a file on Mars that saves the day and you spend the rest of the game finding the win-button and press it, so that all Reapers drop dead at once simultaneously. I mean, it is not even a super-weapon you have to use on the reapers one by one, you just press the win-button. Oh right, you have to make one final "HUUUUUGE" choice at the end, ripped off directly from the original DEUS EX game (2000) - I believe this is the devs attempt at self-irony...

Modifié par MAZ77, 27 février 2012 - 09:43 .

[themightyking]

MAZ77 wrote...

So, the elegant way NOT to make a win-button a deus ex machina is to introduce it at the beginning of the third part of a trilogy and make the protagonists fight their way through to it?

The Reapers come and destroy everything, we are doomed - but someone found a file on Mars that saves the day and you spend the rest of the game finding the win-button and press it so that all Reapers drop dead at once simultaneously. I mean, it is not even a super-wepon you have to use on the reapers one by one, you just press the win-button. Oh right, you have to make one final "HUUUUUGE" choice at the end, ripped off directly from the original DEUS EX game (2000) - I beleive this is the devs attempt at self-irony...

He gets it.

[NNC FROSTY]

If you want a Deus Ex Machina go watch Tangled or most Disney movies.

The crucible does not appear out of nowhere without being established, being wielded by Zeus himself. With no prior mention to it.

[hawat333]

Luc0s wrote...

The Crucible is not a Deux Ex Machina, because of so many reasons.


People on this board need to learn the definition of Deus Ex Machina. So many people abuse the term . It starts to become annoying.

No, it's rather funny.
Like using "Nomen est omen" for Cerberus, while the original Cerberus is only a guardian and not trying to take over the world.
Amusing, really.

[wirelesstkd]

Deus Ex Machina is something that comes completely out of no where and which secures a happy ending when one could not have otherwise happened. It is NOT something that the main characters do, but rather something that just incidentally saves the day. Like the aliens dieing of human disease at the end of War of The Worlds.

It was originally used in classic plays where the characters would screw things up so terribly, and at the end a god would appear to say something like, "I'm here to make everything better and put things back the way they were." This is in a play where the god had previously played no part and had no bearing, even marginally, on the story. By contrast, a movie like Bruce Almighty does NOT deploy a Deus Ex Machina, because God was an intergral part of that movie. You see the difference?

So if there is a "win" button that your character spends the third act trying to find, it may be a bit contrived. It may be bad storytelling. But it is NOT a Deus Ex Machina. Not by any meaning of the term as it is derived from classic literature.

Modifié par wirelesstkd, 27 février 2012 - 06:15 .

[NovemEnuma]

The 6--yes 6--different endings of Mass Effect 3 are kinda-sorta weird; one much moreso than the others. There's actually 7 endings, but to get the 7th ending, which is a surprise ending, you have to beat New Game+. 

Modifié par NovemEnuma, 27 février 2012 - 06:18 .

[wirelesstkd]

Also, from wikipedia:

A deus ex machina is generally undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely, though perhaps more palatable, ending.[14]

[Capeo]

I agree that it isn't quite the definition of DEM but it's close. It is definitely contrived and horribly paced. What the hell were we doing that whole time in ME2? There was so much opportunity to at least set up the Crucible in some way through TIM. Some hint or foreshadowing. Instead we figure all this out while the Reapers are attacking?

And as someone above stated, having read the endings, it's impossible to not think of the first Deus Ex. A couple are pretty much the exact same thing.

[Taleroth]

Some good points here. You've changed my mind. Mass Effect 3 is not a Deus Ex Machina. Though I would still suggest that it's undesirable. It needed better foreshadowing and a connection to the struggles undergone so far.

In a way, it's still an improvement over Mass Effect 1.

Modifié par Taleroth, 27 février 2012 - 06:43 .