38 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

Taleroth wrote...

Some good points here. You've changed my mind. Mass Effect 3 is not a Deus Ex Machina. Though I would still suggest that it's undesirable. It needed better foreshadowing and a connection to the struggles undergone so far.

In a way, it's still an improvement over Mass Effect 1.

I basically agree. The solution they worked up wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's still a decent solution.

[dw99027]

Being Greek with my ancestors actually inventing the term, I have to say that while the strict definition of DeM does not fit the plot deviced used here, it is a fact that both ancient and modern Greeks used the term to describe any "Saving Grace" effect.

[wirelesstkd]

dw99027 wrote...

Being Greek with my ancestors actually inventing the term, I have to say that while the strict definition of DeM does not fit the plot deviced used here, it is a fact that both ancient and modern Greeks used the term to describe any "Saving Grace" effect.

I dunno... I know that words and terms can evolve, idiomatically, but I would not classify something like this as a Deus Ex Machina. At the same time, I'm far from a literary historian, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But it's always been my understanding that a Deus Ex Machina was something very out of the blue that had not been previously established or foreshadowed in anyway. So in the strictest sense, War of the Worlds would not employ a Deus Ex Machina if only it would have established the plausibility of the germ-solution earlier and then foreshadowed it at least once. Then it would just have been a payoff to a previous set up.

So in this case, as I understand it, it is NOT a Deus Ex Machina because it isn't just popping out of nowhere. It's central to the plot.

Again - I'm not an historian, so I would be very wrong

[Capeo]

wirelesstkd wrote...

dw99027 wrote...

Being Greek with my ancestors actually inventing the term, I have to say that while the strict definition of DeM does not fit the plot deviced used here, it is a fact that both ancient and modern Greeks used the term to describe any "Saving Grace" effect.

I dunno... I know that words and terms can evolve, idiomatically, but I would not classify something like this as a Deus Ex Machina. At the same time, I'm far from a literary historian, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But it's always been my understanding that a Deus Ex Machina was something very out of the blue that had not been previously established or foreshadowed in anyway. So in the strictest sense, War of the Worlds would not employ a Deus Ex Machina if only it would have established the plausibility of the germ-solution earlier and then foreshadowed it at least once. Then it would just have been a payoff to a previous set up.

So in this case, as I understand it, it is NOT a Deus Ex Machina because it isn't just popping out of nowhere. It's central to the plot.

Again - I'm not an historian, so I would be very wrong

While I agree in principle I could see people arguing that it is a DEM in the sense of the whole trilogy, as it just pops up in the last game.  Since it is a main part of the plot of this one game though I just think it's more accurate to say it's contrived or, in the very least, rather lazy.

[wirelesstkd]

Capeo wrote...

While I agree in principle I could see people arguing that it is a DEM in the sense of the whole trilogy, as it just pops up in the last game.  Since it is a main part of the plot of this one game though I just think it's more accurate to say it's contrived or, in the very least, rather lazy.

People can argue it, but they would be wrong. It's just a new plot development. Was turning Vader back to the non-dark side a Deus Ex Machina in Jedi? I mean - that was never mentioned before that film

[Taleroth]

I know you're joking, but I still feel I should point out how that's not an apt comparison. Empire Strikes Back laid the way for Return of the Jedi. ESB established the Vader did care for Luke, more than he cared for the Emperor. All the talk of overthrowing the Emperor and the two of them ruling. It was a relatively solid foundation for his redemption.

Modifié par Taleroth, 27 février 2012 - 08:11 .

[Capeo]

wirelesstkd wrote...

Capeo wrote...

While I agree in principle I could see people arguing that it is a DEM in the sense of the whole trilogy, as it just pops up in the last game.  Since it is a main part of the plot of this one game though I just think it's more accurate to say it's contrived or, in the very least, rather lazy.

People can argue it, but they would be wrong. It's just a new plot development. Was turning Vader back to the non-dark side a Deus Ex Machina in Jedi? I mean - that was never mentioned before that film

Vader was shown to be conflicted early on.  No comparison.  And yes, the crucible is a new plot development, just a poorly handled one that shows up out of the blue with no foreshadowing.  Very close to a DEM but not quite.

[wirelesstkd]

Taleroth wrote...

I know you're joking, but I still feel I should point out how that's not an apt comparison. Empire Strikes Back laid the way for Return of the Jedi. ESB established the Vader did care for Luke, more than he cared for the Emperor. All the talk of overthrowing the Emperor and the two of them ruling. It was a relatively solid foundation for his redemption.

He was trying to get Luke to join him on the dark side so
that they could overthrow the Emperor. That wasn't foundation for a move
away from the dark side.



Now, at the same time, we've known that there are Prothean artifacts that hold
knowledge and and advanced tehcnology. That's been in place since the premise
of discovering a cache of it on Mars. And Liara was researching lost Prothean
tech in the first game. So I'm just saying... while I suppose you could stretch
it to make a case that Vader was showing some compassion for his son, it's a
bit easier to make the case that we could have expected lost Prothean tech to
offer some answers (Vigil, anyone?).

[Taleroth]

wirelesstkd wrote...

He was trying to get Luke to join him on the dark side so
that they could overthrow the Emperor. That wasn't foundation for a move
away from the dark side.

It sure was a foundation for a move away from the dark side. Love. But beyond that, it didn't really matter dark side or light side. Just destroying the Emperor mattered. The fact that it killed him too being a happy accident that let people believe "yeah, he's gone good."

It wasn't just on Vader either. It was the relationship with Luke. Luke's courage against the dark side and determination. There's no connecting relationship here. The final battle of RotJ was meant to mirror the one in ESB. So we get a call back to earlier conflict and see the growth between the two and how that changes the outcomes.

What growth has the superweapon been born out of? Is it the Terminator battle?

Modifié par Taleroth, 27 février 2012 - 08:33 .

[chaosomegas]

mission 01 named Prologue: Find the Beacon Saren looking for the beacon

[deimosmasque]

themightyking wrote...


But where do you exactly draw the line at when something becomes a Deus Ex Machina plot device? At the last minute before conclusion? The last hour? The last two hours? I get it for you, you've played ME1 and ME2. Lets say conservatively you've put in 40 hours to the ME Universe. Lets say ME3 is another 20 hour experience focusing on the discovery of the Crucible. So an entire third of your ME experience is dedicated to this goal. On this note, I agree with you.

However, some people have put in the neighborhood of 100 hours on ME including the games, novels, and comic books. For those that spend that much time on it, to spend a smaller fraction of their time discovering a super weapon is where I disagree with your point. 

Also, you are right in that people shouldn't have to read (HURTS MY EYES) to enjoy the ME game. However, as long as Bioware is making increasing connections to the expanded universe, you can't disregard everything that happens beyond the video games. 

You've got very good points, and I don't entirely disagree with them.  To the first point.  When is it a Deus Ex Machina plot device?  

It's a Deus Ex Machina if it comes into play, for the first time ever, in the last or next to last main story mission.  And it it's a Deus Ex Machina if the player plays no part in setting it up.  We know the Crucible is revealed after the second main story misson and that the rest of the game involves several missions to build it and prepare it for use.

That's at least my opinion of it.  I completely understand why you think it is a sort of Deus Ex Machina.  And I'll even admit that when I first heard of it... I was entirely annoyed by the idea of the Crucible.  I've softened to it over time.

As for the novel, comics, etc part of it:  Expanded Universe stuff is nice padding and extras.  They shouldn't ever be viewed as required reading.  Yes Kahlee is in the game, so is Kei Leng.  Liara had a book that explained what she did between ME1 and ME2. 

However, Liara (after the LotSB DLC came out) told us the story of her comic in her words, and from reading the leaked script it sounds like we are going to get a pretty decent description of who the novel characters are and what they've done as well.  I, and no one else, NEED to read the novels and comics to understand.  It just gives a level of additional information that the game can't provide.

[MAZ77]

dw99027 wrote...

Being Greek with my ancestors actually inventing the term, I have to say that while the strict definition of DeM does not fit the plot deviced used here, it is a fact that both ancient and modern Greeks used the term to describe any "Saving Grace" effect.

That is how most people use the term, too. Some people jump into your face when you use that term on the ending of ME 3, totally disregarding the meaning of that term for common people.

[LexXxich]

Might not be a DEM in a strictest sense, but it's a solution to trilogy's plot conflict introduced in the last instalment with no mention of it possibly existing in first two instalments. It's role should have been set up in ME2.

[Shahadem]

Mass Effect 3 is going to be a big Deus Ex Machina because it will be an ending that does not logically follow from Mass Effect 1 and 2.

At the end of Mass Effect 1 what we find out are that the Protheans built their civlization on the back of the civilization before them and because of this they completely lacked the ability to fight off the Reapers. The best they were able to do was to completely hide their top secret base on Ilos in the hopes that they'd be able to figure out how to make a Mass Relay and somehow use this to prevent the Reapers from coming back to continue the 50,000 year cycle.

In fact all the weaponry that was used in Mass Effect 1 which proved so incredibly ineffective against the Reapers was derived from the height of Prothean technology. If the height of Prothean technology could not create a weapon capable of even so much as scratching a Reaper and they only just barely figured out how to build a Mass Effect relay then how exactly could they also have created a doomsday device on Mars capable of wiping out the Reapers? Indeed the Asari can actually be thought of as being more technology advanced than the Protheans because they seemingly were able to build their own Mass Effect Relays years in the past, something that the Protheans only discovered as a last huzzah before keeling over.

Furthermore, how is it possible that both the Reapers and the humans did not discover the Prothean device during Martian excavations? If there really was such a magical doomsday device the Reapers would have learned about it from the indoctrinated Martian Protheans or any indoctrinated Protheans connected to this Martian colony/base. You have to remember that this colony was not a secret colony like the one on Ilos as the research on primitive humans made its way all over the galaxy with a piece winding up in the hands of Shaira 50,000 years later who did not get it from a human but from some other source who in turn did not get it from Martian excavations but rather Prothean excavations on a planet not in the human solar system. This all heavily suggests that there was no undiscovered secret Reaper doomsday device on Mars during Mass Effect 1.

All of human technology up to a few decades ago came from excavations of Prothean ruins on Mars. You can bet your britches that the First Contact War humans found themselves in upon opening the Mass Effect Effect relay orbiting Pluto would have made them search Mars like crazy for anything that would give them an edge or even a fighting chance against the newly discovered aliens.

The fact that nothing had been found on Mars by either the Reapers or the humans who both would have had ample time and ample ability to thoroughly search Mars for such a device leads strong credence to the belief that their was no magical doomsday device on Mars during Mass Effect 1.


The only technology the Protheans seemed to possess which was not discovered or surpassed by the present species were those devices that allowed thoughts to be transmitted directly into the brain, something which the Asari seem capable of doing even without needing those devices making them almost unnecessary. I wouldn't be surprised if actual humans are capable of building such a device by 2050.

We are given absolutely zero information which would lead us to believe that the Protheans would have been capable of somehow creating a Reaper killing doomsday device between the time they first learned of the Reapers and the time they were destroyed by the Reapers and given every indication that they lacked both the technology and time to do so.

Because of this the existance of plans to build a magical Prothean doomsday device on Mars is very much a Deus Ex Machina

During Mass Effect 2 galactic technology was in many ways brought up to the levels of the Reapers in terms of weaponry, shielding and electronic warfare thanks to being able to reverse engineer the technology on Sovereign's corpse.

For example Normandy II's Thanix Cannon is derived from the Turian research into reverse engineering Sovereign's weaponry. It would be safe to assume that nearly every Turian battleship would have or would be capable of being outfitted with a large version of the Thanix Cannon that could do some damage against a Reaper. Thanks to Shephard both Cerberus and the rest of the humans would also have access to this same technology.

From this we can establish that at the end of Mass Effect 2 the galaxy had the capability of effectively fighting back against the Reapers. The only thing it lacked was the cohesiveness needed to unite together enough to actually outfit their existing fleets with this newer technology before trying to take on the Reapers. And that should be what you do in Mass Effect 3.

Instead you work on building a magical doomsday device that was created in Mass Effect 3 specifically to derive a conclusion for Mass Effect 3 that does not logically flow from the events in Mass Effect 1 or 2.

The only other thing I have not addressed are the beings of light from Mass Effect 1 which could also have been a plausible ending or some thing to work towards in Mass Effect 3 however Bioware didn’t choose that route either.

They chose what we in FPS call a magic pill solution.

Modifié par Shahadem, 29 février 2012 - 01:27 .