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Gameplay and Story Segregation


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#26
Joy Divison

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

This would not, in my mind, bar the usefulness/convenience of an autoresolve button to casuals or replayers, but having them fail the 'secondary objectives' of eg. keeping NPCs alive would be a fair trade-off IMO. It would preserve the idea of rewarding gamers who put the effort in while giving a measure of accessibility to gamers who don't want/like combat.


This is a big reason why a "skip combat" button is problematic.  If I'm skipping combat bc/ I'm really interested in the story...I am probably much more interested in those Redcliff villagers and Circle mages than the guy who loves combat and skips all the dialogue.  So I'll feel forced to fight the combat anyway and probably complain on the forums that the button is pointless since it negatively affects the story.

The devs could respond to this dilemma in two ways.  Have the "skip combat" button automatically resolve the combat with all people surviving/every objective secured/every crate saved/etc which I find lame and problematic as it punishes the person who actually plays the game.

Or they could write combats that have no gameplayer elements in them and avoid the situation entirely

#27
Mr Fixit

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Joy Divison wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

This would not, in my mind, bar the usefulness/convenience of an autoresolve button to casuals or replayers, but having them fail the 'secondary objectives' of eg. keeping NPCs alive would be a fair trade-off IMO. It would preserve the idea of rewarding gamers who put the effort in while giving a measure of accessibility to gamers who don't want/like combat.


This is a big reason why a "skip combat" button is problematic.  If I'm skipping combat bc/ I'm really interested in the story...I am probably much more interested in those Redcliff villagers and Circle mages than the guy who loves combat and skips all the dialogue.  So I'll feel forced to fight the combat anyway and probably complain on the forums that the button is pointless since it negatively affects the story.

The devs could respond to this dilemma in two ways.  Have the "skip combat" button automatically resolve the combat with all people surviving/every objective secured/every crate saved/etc which I find lame and problematic as it punishes the person who actually plays the game.

Or they could write combats that have no gameplayer elements in them and avoid the situation entirely


A conundrum to be sureImage IPB

One possible quasi-solution, I think, would be to decrease this enormous emphasis on combat and to implement far more gameplay options. Not have this weird fight-dialogue dichotomy, essentially. If fights were rarer, better designed, more important to the progression of the story (not pure fluff, filler and padding) and avoidable through gameplay, there'd be much less incentive to include a skip button. I don't think even hardcore storytelling players would object too much in that case.

As I said before, main problem in my view isn't combat itself, but the sheer overabundance and irrelevancy of it.

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 28 février 2012 - 10:39 .


#28
Seagloom

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This topic title totally misled me. I expected this discussion would be about marrying story and gameplay mechanics in a way very few RPGs get right--including the Dragon Age games. There are always internal logic flaws I must willfully ignore or it mars the entire experience.

Where the actual topic is concerned, I agree with CrustyBot. A skip combat button does not bother me as long as it is optional. I'm one of those freaks that derives enjoyment from annihilating endless waves of mooks. There's no fun in building a badass character if I can't use their overwhelming power to crush everything, all the time. That steady progression from neophyte adventurer to demigod is one of my favorite RPG aspects, and blowing away waves of enemies in an easy way to highlight it.

The danger comes when endless grunts are used to compensate for poor level design. The ever maligned Deep Roads are a good example. The entire thing could have been reduced to three maps without sacrificing any story content. Too much of it was filler.

I think expanding on gameplay mechanics and improving level design is the real solution to this issue; whereas as a skip button, while acceptable, is a band-aid fix. That is probably the best we will get, sadly. BioWare games have always been over 50% filler combat going back to Baldur's Gate. Without the padding their games feel woefully light on content.

Modifié par Seagloom, 28 février 2012 - 10:29 .


#29
Mr Fixit

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Seagloom wrote...

I think expanding on gameplay mechanics and improving level design is the real solution to this issue.


Agreed.

#30
Das Tentakel

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Seagloom wrote...

I think expanding on gameplay mechanics and improving level design is the real solution to this issue; whereas as a skip button, while acceptable, is a band-aid fix. That is probably the best we will get, sadly. BioWare games have always been over 50% filler combat going back to Baldur's Gate. Without the padding their games feel woefully light on content.


And not just the combat. The dialog feels like padding too. One comment I've heard several times concerning dialog in Bioware games (from Baldur's Gate to DA2) is too much geouwehoer as we Dutch say.
Politely translated: 'too verbose'. I am far more tolerant of this than the people who made that comment, but even I think it got a little out of hand in DA:O and DA2.

But cutting out 50% of combat and 50% of dialog leaves...30% of the game?
A larger and more dynamic / interactive world might compensate for that, but that means pursuing a direction that isn't Bioware's forte. Replace quantity with quality, including a 'better' gaming world.
I think this would be far more productive than adding fast forward buttons.<_<

#31
katiebour

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As a fan of the Total War series, I enjoyed how I could manage my towns, resources, units, royalty, agents, etc. while having a "resolve combat automatically" option. I played for the overarching strategy and the nuggets of history, not for the nitty-gritty of how to manage x number of units on x amount of terrain against x number of enemies, etc.

I played enough of the combat to find it dull and repetitive, and much preferred focusing on the rest of the game. My own personal opinion, YMMV.

If we look at PC and party as units with health, attack, resists, etc and the enemy likewise, it'd be easy enough to do some combat rolls and resolve combat based on turns, speed of attacks, stats, etc.

The downside of a "resolve combat automatically" button might be that a character falls in battle (perhaps not getting xp for the fight as has been implemented in other games.) That's the chance you take when you auto-resolve. Depending on your gear, level, and your random rolls it might go extremely well or extremely poorly.

I agree that the devs should always work towards making combat interesting, relevant, and necessary to the plot. Something tells me that they are in fact attempting to do that anyway.

That being said, auto-resolve has been implemented with success before, and giving gamers options is generally a good thing.

The guys who make combat awesome are still going to keep their jobs, if only for the quote-unquote HARD CORE GAMERZ. Adding a button for those who choose to use it is just that, a choice.

Just my .02. YMMV, live long and prosper, IDIC. :D

#32
Mr Fixit

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Das Tentakel wrote...

And not just the combat. The dialog feels like padding too. One comment I've heard several times concerning dialog in Bioware games (from Baldur's Gate to DA2) is too much geouwehoer as we Dutch say.
Politely translated: 'too verbose'. I am far more tolerant of this than the people who made that comment, but even I think it got a little out of hand in DA:O and DA2.

But cutting out 50% of combat and 50% of dialog leaves...30% of the game?


I confess I don't understand what you mean by this. Is there a LARGE amount of dialogue in Bioware's games? Yes. But writing tends to be very good, companions and the associated conversations are usually the highlight of their games. What do you mean by "too verbose"?

#33
Fast Jimmy

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katiebour wrote...

As a fan of the Total War series, I enjoyed how I could manage my towns, resources, units, royalty, agents, etc. while having a "resolve combat automatically" option. I played for the overarching strategy and the nuggets of history, not for the nitty-gritty of how to manage x number of units on x amount of terrain against x number of enemies, etc.

I played enough of the combat to find it dull and repetitive, and much preferred focusing on the rest of the game. My own personal opinion, YMMV.

If we look at PC and party as units with health, attack, resists, etc and the enemy likewise, it'd be easy enough to do some combat rolls and resolve combat based on turns, speed of attacks, stats, etc.

The downside of a "resolve combat automatically" button might be that a character falls in battle (perhaps not getting xp for the fight as has been implemented in other games.) That's the chance you take when you auto-resolve. Depending on your gear, level, and your random rolls it might go extremely well or extremely poorly.

I agree that the devs should always work towards making combat interesting, relevant, and necessary to the plot. Something tells me that they are in fact attempting to do that anyway.

That being said, auto-resolve has been implemented with success before, and giving gamers options is generally a good thing.

The guys who make combat awesome are still going to keep their jobs, if only for the quote-unquote HARD CORE GAMERZ. Adding a button for those who choose to use it is just that, a choice.

Just my .02. YMMV, live long and prosper, IDIC. :D


That option works very well for Total War, as there is a lot of gameplay elements still in play besides the combat. Managing resources and towns, for example. In addition, there is no real "wrong way" to level up in Total War. If you auto-resolve combat and your characters survive, they become stronger.

In the Dragon Age games, there are really only three main gameplay features - combat (fighting enemies through the combat screen), dialogue (choosing options through the conversation wheel) and exploration (walk/running and looting gear). There are some mild crafting elements, but these are incredibly microscale in comparisson to the other three. Also, if you level up your mage and put all points into strengrh instead of willpower or magic, you can level-up them into impotency, especially with the level scaling in-game. Granted, you could turn on the auto-level up feature and circumvent this for the most part. But that simply means that its less likely Bioware would incorporate any non-combat skills to the character skill sheet in the future, IMO.

If you skip combat in DA, then you are left with walking and talking. There are no other gameplay features to speak of. And by incorporating a Skip Button, you are forever forcing that one feature, combat, to remain one-dimensional.

Seagloom wrote...

This topic title totally misled me. I
expected this discussion would be about marrying story and gameplay
mechanics in a way very few RPGs get right--including the Dragon Age
games. There are always internal logic flaws I must willfully ignore or
it mars the entire experience.


I feel like the Skip Button conversation itself may have run its course, so I'd be completely open to discussing how to blur the line between gameplay elements and story in the DA games.

Currently, there isn't a LOT of other gameplay elements other than combat and dialogue in DA, something I'd like to see remedied. Nonetheless, instances where combat (or puzzle options like in the Urn questline or sneak sections, like in MotA) can be used to integrate story on a consistent basis (meaning outside of the one-off situations like in Redcliffe, but an experience that follows throughout the game) would be a very welcome discussion.

#34
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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Mr Fixit wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

And not just the combat. The dialog feels like padding too. One comment I've heard several times concerning dialog in Bioware games (from Baldur's Gate to DA2) is too much geouwehoer as we Dutch say.
Politely translated: 'too verbose'. I am far more tolerant of this than the people who made that comment, but even I think it got a little out of hand in DA:O and DA2.

But cutting out 50% of combat and 50% of dialog leaves...30% of the game?


I confess I don't understand what you mean by this. Is there a LARGE amount of dialogue in Bioware's games? Yes. But writing tends to be very good, companions and the associated conversations are usually the highlight of their games. What do you mean by "too verbose"?


I think that the point is that Bioware companions tend to exposit and infodump, instead of talk like real people. The result is that the dialogue all sounds pretty stilted. I would also prefer if they go in a more Obsidian/CDPR direction with their dialogue.

#35
Wulfram

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If The Witcher 1 is any guide, then I really really don't want Bioware to go in the CDPR direction with their dialogue. It was horrible.

#36
Mr Fixit

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Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

And not just the combat. The dialog feels like padding too. One comment I've heard several times concerning dialog in Bioware games (from Baldur's Gate to DA2) is too much geouwehoer as we Dutch say.
Politely translated: 'too verbose'. I am far more tolerant of this than the people who made that comment, but even I think it got a little out of hand in DA:O and DA2.

But cutting out 50% of combat and 50% of dialog leaves...30% of the game?


I confess I don't understand what you mean by this. Is there a LARGE amount of dialogue in Bioware's games? Yes. But writing tends to be very good, companions and the associated conversations are usually the highlight of their games. What do you mean by "too verbose"?


I think that the point is that Bioware companions tend to exposit and infodump, instead of talk like real people. The result is that the dialogue all sounds pretty stilted. I would also prefer if they go in a more Obsidian/CDPR direction with their dialogue.


Oh I don't know. In my opinion Bioware games have very good writing, characterization and voice acting.

#37
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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@mr. Fixit: no argument on the voice acting front. Characterization is also pretty good, but honestly writing could be significantly more succinct. Cliches like "less is more" and "show, don't tell" apply here.

@Wulfram: some versions of Twitcher 1 are missing literally 30% of the script because of a lack of a localization budget. You probably played one of those.

#38
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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Although it is important to draw a distinction between dialogue and writing in general. Dragon Age writing (at least in Origins) has many strengths regardless of how unnatural the dialogue sounds.

#39
philippe willaume

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Seagloom wrote...

This topic title totally misled me. I expected this discussion would be about marrying story and gameplay mechanics in a way very few RPGs get right--including the Dragon Age games. There are always internal logic flaws I must willfully ignore or it mars the entire experience.

Where the actual topic is concerned, I agree with CrustyBot. A skip combat button does not bother me as long as it is optional. I'm one of those freaks that derives enjoyment from annihilating endless waves of mooks. There's no fun in building a badass character if I can't use their overwhelming power to crush everything, all the time. That steady progression from neophyte adventurer to demigod is one of my favorite RPG aspects, and blowing away waves of enemies in an easy way to highlight it.

The danger comes when endless grunts are used to compensate for poor level design. The ever maligned Deep Roads are a good example. The entire thing could have been reduced to three maps without sacrificing any story content. Too much of it was filler.

I think expanding on gameplay mechanics and improving level design is the real solution to this issue; whereas as a skip button, while acceptable, is a band-aid fix. That is probably the best we will get, sadly. BioWare games have always been over 50% filler combat going back to Baldur's Gate. Without the padding their games feel woefully light on content.


Yes it a bit misleading and yet it is not that different to what you assumed it is.
 
What you thought the problem was is the underlying problem of that discussion; the only difference is the angles people are coming from.
 
I agree with both positions
It is fine to have skip combat (and by that I mean a kill all hostile) or an autopilot with on hit kill setting as long as it is optional.
 
Now DA is about combat as much as it is about story. So skipping either is defeating the purpose. It is fine to have the option for those that like the setting and don’t mind the loss but it does in no way equates to get rid/don’t spend time working on the combat.
 
As you said, waves of mooks are fine; it makes you feel Awasome, if it is employed with moderation.
But if there is no rime or reason as to why, when and where the opposition appears,
It feels disjointed to the story and it is the only connection is enemy type correspond to where you are.
Sometime it is done well, like the beginning of legacy or in DA:O the ambush from 8 shrieks on the bridge.
But most of the times combat is there to make you feel like a Warhammer Big’unes aka “Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrggg, Choppa choppa”.
 It is because the combat is not integrated to the story per se; it is just there so that we can go “choppa choppa”
 
When we are attacking a bandit base in Kirkwall, you got the line “aha we have been expecting you serra Hawk” the only thing they miss is the white cat.
 
Hawk answer “nope dude you ain’t really, just the same setup as when we caught you in da Street the last 3 times.”
 
Instead of that, we could have waited for us in an ambush, having defence in depth, may be people to talk to to get a secret entrance or sentry and watchers to dispatch or sneak by.
phil

#40
Wulfram

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Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

@Wulfram: some versions of Twitcher 1 are missing literally 30% of the script because of a lack of a localization budget. You probably played one of those.


The Enhanced Edition Director's Cut?

(Admittedly, some of the problem may have been the bad voice acting.  Tough to seperate them)

#41
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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@Wulfram: yeah, it's important to separate writing from voice acting haha. That's why you gotta play those ones in Polish with subtitles, because if the voice acting's bad, you can't tell :D

#42
philippe willaume

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Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

@Wulfram: yeah, it's important to separate writing from voice acting haha. That's why you gotta play those ones in Polish with subtitles, because if the voice acting's bad, you can't tell :D

+10 approval

#43
Mr Fixit

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Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Although it is important to draw a distinction between dialogue and writing in general. Dragon Age writing (at least in Origins) has many strengths regardless of how unnatural the dialogue sounds.


Interesting. I'd say that, if there is a problem, it's the exact opposite. Where writing is concerned, I feel dialogues are very well done, I enjoy listening to them immensely. It's the whole overarching storylines in Bioware games that can be seen as cliched or not particularly fleshed out.

#44
Meris

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Mr Fixit wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Although it is important to draw a distinction between dialogue and writing in general. Dragon Age writing (at least in Origins) has many strengths regardless of how unnatural the dialogue sounds.


Interesting. I'd say that, if there is a problem, it's the exact opposite. Where writing is concerned, I feel dialogues are very well done, I enjoy listening to them immensely. It's the whole overarching storylines in Bioware games that can be seen as cliched or not particularly fleshed out.


When it comes to wether its cliche or not I just stop carrying and enjoy the ride. Because really, its not like I'm still 6 years old.

#45
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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@Mr. Visit, yeah, DA:O definitely had some plot issues, and any attempts at humor tended to be absolutely cringeworthy, among other things. But it was excellent at establishing characters, a sense of place, a consistent tone, and (for a modern, voiced game) was above average in terms of making it feel like your choices had impact. Of course, this is all IMO haha.

#46
G00N3R7883

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I don't think the implementation of a skip gameplay feature will inevitably lead to the nightmare scenario of ruining gameplay for those players who don't skip it. Its possible to skip cutscenes and dialogue, yet Bioware still treat those things as important, and the result is that they remain high quality. The same could happen for combat (yes I know DA2 combat was poor :\\).

However, I would hope that Bioware recognise that any time there is a decision to be made along the lines of "if we do X, the players who play the whole game will suffer, but if we do Y, the players who skip huge chunks of the game will suffer", they have to favour the players who play the whole game.

Ultimately though, I agree with earlier posts in this thread, that the perfect world solution is to make quests which can be resolved multiple ways, one of which is combat, the others non-combat. That can be stealth, it can be hacking (if it fits the theme of the game), it can be bribing someone, it can be passing a persuade/intimidate check, or any number of other possibilities. Deus Ex HR and Fallout NV have some good examples of this.

I actually want this anyway, not just to please the players who want to skip combat, but just so that, you know, I'll be playing a better game. Its worth mentioning that even though I will take the combat option alot of the time, it feels more satisfying to me if I know that I've got the option to do it differently, and I killed those dozen guys because I chose to, not just because the game forced me to.

Modifié par G00N3R7883, 28 février 2012 - 03:41 .


#47
Mr Fixit

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Meris wrote...

Mr Fixit wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Although it is important to draw a distinction between dialogue and writing in general. Dragon Age writing (at least in Origins) has many strengths regardless of how unnatural the dialogue sounds.


Interesting. I'd say that, if there is a problem, it's the exact opposite. Where writing is concerned, I feel dialogues are very well done, I enjoy listening to them immensely. It's the whole overarching storylines in Bioware games that can be seen as cliched or not particularly fleshed out.


When it comes to wether its cliche or not I just stop carrying and enjoy the ride. Because really, its not like I'm still 6 years old.


Absolutely. It's precisely because I enjoy these "micro-moments" in Bioware games (characterization, companions, dialogues, sense of place as Dave said) I too am not overly bothered by some "macro-problems" in their stories.

#48
Joy Divison

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Mr Fixit wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

This would not, in my mind, bar the usefulness/convenience of an autoresolve button to casuals or replayers, but having them fail the 'secondary objectives' of eg. keeping NPCs alive would be a fair trade-off IMO. It would preserve the idea of rewarding gamers who put the effort in while giving a measure of accessibility to gamers who don't want/like combat.


This is a big reason why a "skip combat" button is problematic.  If I'm skipping combat bc/ I'm really interested in the story...I am probably much more interested in those Redcliff villagers and Circle mages than the guy who loves combat and skips all the dialogue.  So I'll feel forced to fight the combat anyway and probably complain on the forums that the button is pointless since it negatively affects the story.

The devs could respond to this dilemma in two ways.  Have the "skip combat" button automatically resolve the combat with all people surviving/every objective secured/every crate saved/etc which I find lame and problematic as it punishes the person who actually plays the game.

Or they could write combats that have no gameplayer elements in them and avoid the situation entirely


A conundrum to be sureImage IPB

One possible quasi-solution, I think, would be to decrease this enormous emphasis on combat and to implement far more gameplay options. Not have this weird fight-dialogue dichotomy, essentially. If fights were rarer, better designed, more important to the progression of the story (not pure fluff, filler and padding) and avoidable through gameplay, there'd be much less incentive to include a skip button. I don't think even hardcore storytelling players would object too much in that case.

As I said before, main problem in my view isn't combat itself, but the sheer overabundance and irrelevancy of it.


Preach it!

#49
Das Tentakel

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Mr
Fixit wrote... 

Das
Tentakel wrote...
 ...One comment I've heard several times concerning dialog in Bioware games (from Baldur's Gate to DA2) is too much geouwehoer as we Dutch say.
Politely translated: 'too verbose'. But cutting out 50% of combat and 50% of dialog leaves...30% of the game?
 


 I confess I don't understand what you mean by this. Is there a LARGE&nbsp;amount of dialogue in Bioware's games? Yes. But writing tends to be very good, companions and the&nbsp;associated&nbsp;conversations are usually the highlight of their games. What do you mean by "too verbose"?


Yognaut answered that one pretty well.
But to add to the back-and-forth on writing and dialog:

 As with everything, there is a difference in the objective or ‘technical’ quality of writing (spelling, grammar, use of specific narrative techniques, number of words versus informative value, complexity and
originality of the plot, character depth and development etc.) and perception of the writing. The perception of dialog, even if its writing is technically of a good standard, can be ruined by badly executed and directed voice acting (or a badly miscast voice actor). 

When I posted this, I was actually voicing an opinion I have heard quite a few times, and which I can understand, even if I do not entirely share it. The total quantity of dialog (and written texts, for instance the Codex entries) in Bioware is very large. Biowarian games rely to a large degree on ‘telling, not showing’. And what is written is variable in quality and delivery.

That does not mean that Bioware’s writing is bad, or that the voice actors are bad. A lot of it is pretty good to great. But there is also a lot, from meh sidequests to flat voice-acting to simply too much exposition, too much telling and not enough showing, that effectively serves as padding.

It also depends on what you compare it with. By videogame standards, Bioware's writing and voice acting is bloody good. I certainly usually enjoy it enough to have bought every Bioware game so far, a few even more than once.
Comparing Bioware's writing (or that of any videogame for that matter) with that in other media...something else entirelyB) 

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 28 février 2012 - 07:27 .


#50
Mr Fixit

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Well yeah, it's true, but it serves little purpose to compare different mediums (or is it media? :ph34r: ) in such "one-for-one" fashion. You said yourself that BioWare is the master of writing in the games industry. Their verbosity is part of who they are, it's one of the reasons their worlds and characters feel so alive.

In short, I like verbosity. More please :)

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 28 février 2012 - 07:41 .