51 réponses à ce sujet

[darrenecm]

Constuctive criticism in official forums is a hugely valuable thing to a software developer. It's here that they get feedback on areas that they can possibly improve in sequels. However, anyone who is familiar with forums soon finds that a lot of threads can quickly devolve into mindless rants with worthless arguments being thrown about and  conversations quickly deviating from topic.

I reccomend everyone point their browsers to the link below and learn about Logicial Fallacies.

www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx

Any worthwhile argument or counter-argument needs to avoid every one of these logical fallacies if you are to be taken seriously and not some juvinile-minded, socially inept forum troll. Knowledge of these fallacies will improve your ability to argue and criticise in a constructive way and make you a better critical thinker rather than a wooly-minded muppet

I personally think the most common logical fallacies found in forums are the Straw Man and the Ad Hominim. Ad Hominim in particular will be seen most in flame war threads.

Modifié par darrenecm, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:56 .

[Rainen89]

Honestly, if people could just get away from the :you disagree with me and therefore r dumbz" mantra I think we'd be set.

[darrenecm]

Rainen89 wrote...

Honestly, if people could just get away from the :you disagree with me and therefore r dumbz" mantra I think we'd be set.

Agreed, and that particular argument 'mantra' you mention is the massively common Ad Hominim logical fallacy I mention. Anyone resorting to this response has, in my opinion, lost their argument right there and given up

The only way to maturely close arguments of this nature is simply to 'agree to disagree' on whatever the subject is after exhausting all worthwhile and logical debate on the topic.

Modifié par darrenecm, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:48 .

[deathwing200]

darrenecm wrote...

Constuctive criticism in official forums is a hugely valuable thing to a software developer. It's here that they get feedback on areas that they can possibly improve in sequels. However, anyone who is familiar with forums soon finds that a lot of threads can quickly devolve into mindless rants with worthless arguments being thrown about and  conversations quickly deviating from topic.

I reccomend everyone point their browsers to the link below and learn about Logicial Fallacies.

www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx

Any worthwhile argument or counter-argument needs to avoid every one of these logical fallacies if you are to be taken seriously and not some juvinile-minded, socially inept forum troll. Knowledge of these fallacies will improve your ability to argue and criticise in a constructive way and make you a better critical thinker rather than a wooly-minded muppet

I personally think the most common logical fallacies found in forums are the Straw Man and the Ad Hominim. Ad Hominim in particular will be seen most in flame war threads.

....ok? As far as I am concerned you're just another pseudo-intellectual, who tries to sound smart because he can look up several definitions online. Grats, you can use google.

[Errel]

deathwing200 wrote...
....ok? As far as I am concerned you're just another pseudo-intellectual, who tries to sound smart because he can look up several definitions online. Grats, you can use google.

The OP's intelligence is neither relevant nor the point.
The point is, stop making remarks like that, insulting random internet people on a forum is pointless.

[Zealuu]

deathwing200 wrote...

darrenecm wrote...


I personally think the most common logical fallacies found in forums are the ... the Ad Hominim. 

....ok? As far as I am concerned you're just another pseudo-intellectual, who tries to sound smart because he can look up several definitions online. Grats, you can use google.

Self-fulfilling prophecy, or the inherent irony of the internet?

[Mordaedil]

deathwing200 wrote...

....ok? As far as I am concerned you're just another pseudo-intellectual, who tries to sound smart because he can look up several definitions online. Grats, you can use google.

I hope the irony was not lost on anyone.

[darrenecm]

deathwing200 wrote...

darrenecm wrote...

Constuctive criticism in official forums is a hugely valuable thing to a software developer. It's here that they get feedback on areas that they can possibly improve in sequels. However, anyone who is familiar with forums soon finds that a lot of threads can quickly devolve into mindless rants with worthless arguments being thrown about and  conversations quickly deviating from topic.

I reccomend everyone point their browsers to the link below and learn about Logicial Fallacies.

www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx

Any worthwhile argument or counter-argument needs to avoid every one of these logical fallacies if you are to be taken seriously and not some juvinile-minded, socially inept forum troll. Knowledge of these fallacies will improve your ability to argue and criticise in a constructive way and make you a better critical thinker rather than a wooly-minded muppet

I personally think the most common logical fallacies found in forums are the Straw Man and the Ad Hominim. Ad Hominim in particular will be seen most in flame war threads.

....ok? As far as I am concerned you're just another pseudo-intellectual, who tries to sound smart because he can look up several definitions online. Grats, you can use google.

And that right there is pure Ad Hominim where you attack the person rather than the points he's trying to put across - ironic and prophetic as others have pointed out

You obviously disagree with me but seem incapable of explaining why. I may probably be wasting my time with you but I'll let you try and come back to us with a more rational reason...are you up to it?

Modifié par darrenecm, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:06 .

[Torias]

As a reminder, since it's on the topic of the thread:



personal insults and attacks directed at other community members are not allowed on these forums.



we are here to discuss dragon age (and have a fun time doing it ;-) )...



Bioware wants this to be a pleasant and welcoming community, without the nastiness and incessant bickering / insulting that happens on a lot of internet forums.

[Emryc]

Ad hominem isn't so much a fallacy as just an insult. Same goes for Ad baculum, which is just a threat.



Logical fallacies tend to deal with flaws in logic and the structure of an argument. This is an internetforum. Logic does not exist in this wretched hive of scum and villainy.

[MachDelta]

Go go gadget Flame Warriors!

[Godeshus]

Reductia ad absurdum happens a LOT. A perfect example is the current issue with the way Warden's keep is marketed in-game.



The gist of the argument in mind is "Marketing DLC in game? If we don't fight against it soon we will have Burger King ads in Redcliffe"

[darrenecm]

Emryc wrote...

Ad hominem isn't so much a fallacy as just an insult. Same goes for Ad baculum, which is just a threat.

Logical fallacies tend to deal with flaws in logic and the structure of an argument. This is an internetforum. Logic does not exist in this wretched hive of scum and villainy.

Lol. Agreed on some levels, but still hopeful that rationaility and common sense can still be found within Internet forums given some effort and guidance

Modifié par darrenecm, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:12 .

[Sarevok Anchev]

Emryc wrote...

Ad hominem isn't so much a fallacy as just an insult. Same goes for Ad baculum, which is just a threat.

Logical fallacies tend to deal with flaws in logic and the structure of an argument. This is an internetforum. Logic does not exist in this wretched hive of scum and villainy.

...More objectivity plz. There are always kids even in 18+ game-forums. They still have to master their hormones *g
And others cant express their accumulated emotions. If you or anyone looses his/her temper on them you cant show them possible alternatives in comparison to their behaviour.

All in all: Thumbs up! 

[SithLordExarKun]

Im more interested in the amounts of keyboard warriors over here.

[KalosCast]

1) How to argue constructively and intelligently in forums: you can't

2) HOLY **** we have moderators?

[Emryc]

I did put up somewhat of a generalization, but the gist of it has already been said by others. The problem with solid arguments is the fact that most 'kids' these days don't get any education in logic.



They even need to know the theory behind the whole 'Humans are mortal. Socrates is a human. Thus Socrates is mortal' type of reasoning. Which is the easiest form of logic to begin with.

[Torias]

KalosCast wrote...

1) How to argue constructively and intelligently in forums: you can't
2) HOLY **** we have moderators?

yeah, there's actually a pretty big team of community moderators who volunteer their time here, mostly recycled from older bioware games like bg, nwn, kotor, jade empire and mass effect....

they only just got around to adding a new feature to the social site today, tagging our posts with special badges :-)

Modifié par Torias, 25 novembre 2009 - 09:26 .

[KalosCast]

Torias wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

1) How to argue constructively and intelligently in forums: you can't
2) HOLY **** we have moderators?

yeah, there's actually a pretty big team of community moderators who volunteer their time here, mostly recycled from older bioware games like bg, nwn, kotor, jade empire and mass effect....

they only just got around to adding a new feature to the social site today, tagging our posts with special badges :-)

Speaking as a moderator at a much smaller fansite for a game with a much smaller fandom... I don't envy you having to police the no spoilers forum.

[Godeshus]

KalosCast wrote...

1) How to argue constructively and intelligently in forums: you can't
2) HOLY **** we have moderators?

Lol.

I think one of the issues lies in how people take things. My best friend speaks really bluntly. He's not mean or anything, he just tells it like it is. But when you can't see the person's expressions and mannerisms, it can be easy to get offended.

It's happens sometimes when we're arguing about our points of view, and I say something that he can't really digest, and simply says: "That's dumb". While I don't always agree with him on that, sometimes I kind of have to give him credit for it because, well, yeah, it was dumb.  He never said that I was dumb though. He just said his opinion on my opinion, in his own way. 

[Torias]

KalosCast wrote...

Torias wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

1) How to argue constructively and intelligently in forums: you can't
2) HOLY **** we have moderators?

yeah, there's actually a pretty big team of community moderators who volunteer their time here, mostly recycled from older bioware games like bg, nwn, kotor, jade empire and mass effect....

they only just got around to adding a new feature to the social site today, tagging our posts with special badges :-)

Speaking as a moderator at a much smaller fansite for a game with a much smaller fandom... I don't envy you having to police the no spoilers forum.

My secret: I waited till I finished the game before I started actually browsing all the threads ;-) wanted to stop myself getting spoiled.... I'm kinda selfish :-)

Now that I'm on my second play through, it's cool.

It's actually like gardening... there's a nice sense of satisfaction that goes with it :-)

[Balraw]

Ok logically speaking a topic about  "How to argue constructively and intelligently in forums"
should logically go in the off topic section and not the Dragon Age:Origins General Discussions (No  Spoilers Allowed) as it has nothing to do specifically with the game Dragon Age.

Just saying

[SithLordExarKun]

How about not arguing at all? It usually turns ugly on the internet.

[purplesunset]

I'm afraid to say that the OP will most likely be preaching to the choir with a thread like this.

In other words, people who commit these fallacies will most likely just use a fallacy to disregard this thread (see the sweet irony above for an example)

As a veteran of many internet forums, I have come to accept that useful, constructive discourse are few and far between, and even then you will have to wade through a lot of swill to find the gem posts. The reasons for this are many but the obvious ones are...anonymity combined with freedom. There is also a very distinct "internet culture" that places like 4chan help to cultivate. This causes people to post things just to fit in with the culture, and people who are new to that culture love to use those buzzwords to get a sense of belonging, even though they might not personalyl believe in it themselves.

If you are familaiar with MBTI personality type theory, you will see how it also plays a role in a forum's specific culture.

NT heavy forums tend to have a distinct lack of tact, coarse bluntness, and "internet tough guys"  whose idea of fun is calling  anyone who needs help a "stupid noob" 

NF-heavy forums tend to have excessive smileys, and long-winded, self-absorbed emotional rants.

[slikster]

MachDelta wrote...

Go go gadget Flame Warriors!

Thanks for that, that was awesome.