374 réponses à ce sujet

[BentOrgy]

Poor renegades are just sad because they killed everyone that could have been their friends.

Have a cookie.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Unless you view the world only through your eyes.

-I really dont see an option as I cant see the world through those of others. I can sympathize, empathize, but observe the world as another does in its entirety? No.

I act according to the most logical decisions for all. The again, this is a curse for a Comteian Altruist.

-So you claim. And Im sure you do.

However in my experience altruists are only so to a certain point, and usually with a specific agenda. Altruism usually also requires some moral and ethical choises about what is right and wrong, and those convictions, even with altruists can be held pretty firmly.

Which deffinition of altruism are we talking?

Comteian altruism is very different from the modern day meaning of the word.

[Farbautisonn]

Its cold at the top. But the view is nice.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Which deffinition of altruism are we talking?

-The everyday one. Well. I am. 

Comteian altruism is very different from the modern day meaning of the word.

-I wouldnt know the difference? But if you could elaborate a bit that would be nice? 

[TheLostGenius]

 I have playthroughs where I killed Balak and where I let him live. Very curious to see if anything happens with him.

[drak4806.2]

I think in some cases bioware could reward both paragons and renagades. For example saving the council would lead to greater unity in mass effect 3 and letting the council die would lead to increase tensions between the various races that during the time between ME1 and ME3 caused a military build up which would also be usefull during Mass Effect 3. 

But regarding the OP yeah paragons due need to be punished in some cases Paragades and Renagons for the win!

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Which deffinition of altruism are we talking?

-The everyday one. Well. I am. 

Comteian altruism is very different from the modern day meaning of the word.

-I wouldnt know the difference? But if you could elaborate a bit that would be nice? 

Comte Altruism means "live for others". It is in direct opposition to Egoism or Randian Objectivism.

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Comte Altruism means "live for others".

-You will have to excuse me, but I find any such proposition quite absurd. I have never in my life met or heard of such an individual. Perhaps if you could direct me to an example of such an individual? 

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Comte Altruism means "live for others".

-You will have to excuse me, but I find any such proposition quite absurd. I have never in my life met or heard of such an individual. Perhaps if you could direct me to an example of such an individual? 

Historical Jesus

Ghandi

MLK

There has never been a 100% true follower of it...but there hasn't been a 100% Egoist either.

[Lee T]

Actually I would be disappointed if all choices were good ones be they paragon or renegade. Take the Rachni, letting them live could kick you in the teeth, killing them could deprive you of a valuable ally. If there's no consequences there's no real choice to speak of.

Modifié par Lee T, 27 février 2012 - 11:12 .

[Homebound]

For all you weepy, soft-hearted renegades out there...

I hope theres a scene in the game where something doesnt bite you in the ass because of something stupid you did 2 savefiles ago.

='D

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Comte Altruism means "live for others".

-You will have to excuse me, but I find any such proposition quite absurd. I have never in my life met or heard of such an individual. Perhaps if you could direct me to an example of such an individual? 

Historical Jesus

Ghandi

MLK

There has never been a 100% true follower of it...but there hasn't been a 100% Egoist either.

Great men of history to be sure. But generally I would never presume to follow in their footsteps. I am by nature rather arrogant, but Im not that arrogant.

Besides. All of the individuals above held quite strong notions of right and wrong. Strong notions about morals and ethics too. And they were all highly religious individuals. I am afraid I do not place a high premium on scripture. Whilst they "lived for others" they primarily "lived for others of same faith,  race or creed". That alone can be a questionable choise.

[AlexXIV]

BlueMagitek wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Actually even if it wasn't a DLC it would probably be the other way round. If you run into Balak again because you let him live he will not be as hostile because basically you let him go and showed you care more about saving people than killing. And if you killed him some other Batarian would kill your LI for revenge for their martyr Balak.

Some people just think killing solves all problems. If we would follow Renegade logic then at some point we would notice that we ain't any better than our enemies. Maybe even worse. And I for one need a good reason to fight for. And I guess anyone does unless they are just doing it for fun or whatever.

Alex, you were doing so well until this point too.

I mean, seriously, a batarian comes to revenge Balak?  Even his lieutenant thought he was insane, and, you could have promised him that you'd kill Balak.  If you did kill Balak, it would make more sense that you'd meet his Lt (assuming you didn't kill him to, in which case you get some new guy) who, as we know, isn't genocidal and holds to his word.  Why assume Balak would change when now he knows that all he needs to get away is a human hostage?

Renegade isn't about killing every single person who has ever wronged anyone ever, it's about doing whatever it takes to get the job done and to save other people.  Keeping David to enlist the Geth to the side of humans, killing a terrorist to stop a possible rampage in the future, taking care of potential problems before they happen.  Yeah, it isn't always pretty and feel good, but they get the job done.

Look at Mordin; his actions earned him far more renegade points than almost anything Shepard has done (apart from the Rachni queen), but you don't despise him for doing what he, and the rest of the STG, thought was right.

Balak wasn't a slaver as far as I know he was a 'freedom fighter' (some say terrorist). The difference is, he was a person with ideals. People with ideals which lead them on the wrong road I usually consider 'misguided'. While the slaver guy (who I killed for being a slaver) are oportunists. They don't believe in anything aside from their own advantage.

That the slaver didn't like Balak because Balak lied to him about taking slaves when it really was a terrorism mission speaks more for Balak imo. Because he is probably no slaver. Hard to say since slavery seems to be legal in Batarian space. Anyway, I'd rather trust an idealist to learn from mistakes than an opportunist. Because and idealist who was wrong and notices may change. An opportunist will always just look out for himself alone.

I still would have killed Balak. Actually I did it because that was the first plan. To kill him and free the hoestages before the bombs go off. Sadly that failed, so basically in a roleplay sense I would have gone with the renegade choice this time. But I really couldn't take the burned corpses of the crew so I reloaded and went paragon. That's why it is hard for me to roleplay everything in single player games, Bioware games especially. The smart choice is not always recognized as such. You kind of have to assume that the paragon will work out to make any sense to the game at all.

I mean some of you people insist to impose your logic over the logic of the game. As in declaring that renegade is the reasonable guy and paragon not. But frankly, the game wins. Because you as a player, unless you can rewrite the plot, can only accept what the game gives you. I'd rather not be a frustrated renegade player spending my time writing hate posts vs paragons on the BSN. So I accept the reality the game provides me as the reality that counts in the ME universe. Even if irl I would probably act different.

It's just ... if you live in a fairy tale, then you better accept the rules that work in fairy tales.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 27 février 2012 - 11:27 .

[drak4806.2]

Lee T wrote...

Actually I would be disappointed if all choices were good ones be they paragon or renegade. Take the Rachni, letting them live could kick you in the teeth, killing them could deprive you of a valuable ally. If there's no consequences there's no real choice to speak of.

I agree i want consequences as well but in some cases both options are good ideas and rewarding both in a few (and i mean few as in 5 max) cases such as the council and the collector base could make this game more interesting morality wise. It might also get paragons and renagades from fighting each other so much.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Comte Altruism means "live for others".

-You will have to excuse me, but I find any such proposition quite absurd. I have never in my life met or heard of such an individual. Perhaps if you could direct me to an example of such an individual? 

Historical Jesus

Ghandi

MLK

There has never been a 100% true follower of it...but there hasn't been a 100% Egoist either.

Great men of history to be sure. But generally I would never presume to follow in their footsteps. I am by nature rather arrogant, but Im not that arrogant.

Besides. All of the individuals above held quite strong notions of right and wrong. Strong notions about morals and ethics too. And they were all highly religious individuals. I am afraid I do not place a high premium on scripture. Whilst they "lived for others" they primarily "lived for others of same faith,  race or creed". That alone can be a questionable choise.

Historical Jesus and MLK lived form all men. A common misconception is that Jesusn was only for one peoples. He was for all humans; religious or not.

I'll admit, I am probably the first to take Altruism to it's logical extreme. As I've said it is both a gift and a curse.

[incinerator950]

drak4806.2 wrote...

Lee T wrote...

Actually I would be disappointed if all choices were good ones be they paragon or renegade. Take the Rachni, letting them live could kick you in the teeth, killing them could deprive you of a valuable ally. If there's no consequences there's no real choice to speak of.

I agree i want consequences as well but in some cases both options are good ideas and rewarding both in a few (and i mean few as in 5 max) cases such as the council and the collector base could make this game more interesting morality wise. It might also get paragons and renagades from fighting each other so much.

The Collector Base and Overlord help you both capacities, if you either helped Cerberus, or didn't. 

I can't remember who said this, but they were right when they said "Stick to your guns"...meat, ideas, I don't remember.  Regardless, if you killed the Rachni Queen the first time, you may wish to consider those actions in ME 3.  They don't bite you in the ass until after you see what goes on, not before.

[QuarkZ26]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Comte Altruism means "live for others".

-You will have to excuse me, but I find any such proposition quite absurd. I have never in my life met or heard of such an individual. Perhaps if you could direct me to an example of such an individual? 

Historical Jesus

Ghandi

MLK

There has never been a 100% true follower of it...but there hasn't been a 100% Egoist either.

Great men of history to be sure. But generally I would never presume to follow in their footsteps. I am by nature rather arrogant, but Im not that arrogant.

Besides. All of the individuals above held quite strong notions of right and wrong. Strong notions about morals and ethics too. And they were all highly religious individuals. I am afraid I do not place a high premium on scripture. Whilst they "lived for others" they primarily "lived for others of same faith,  race or creed". That alone can be a questionable choise.

Mother Theresa. 'nuff said.

[ArMedSuRViVoR]

You know whats ironic? I am hardcore paragon, but the Balak choice in Bring Down The Sky, I chose to kill him

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Historical Jesus and MLK lived form all men. A common misconception is that Jesusn was only for one peoples. He was for all humans; religious or not.

I'll admit, I am probably the first to take Altruism to it's logical extreme. As I've said it is both a gift and a curse.

The notion of religion is a volitile one that Id rather not touch too heavily upon in this forum. Lets just say that my perception of both men differs from yours.

If you pull off your experiment then I do commend you. I do however ask you to observe that notions of morals and ethics are heavily dependent on culture, time, social status and economic affluence. And that these notions seem to be at the very base of your convictions.

[Farbautisonn]

QuarkZ26 wrote...
Mother Theresa. 'nuff said.

-So you say...

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...
culture, time,

Those two are inescapable; the latter two are.

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

QuarkZ26 wrote...
Mother Theresa. 'nuff said.

-So you say...

Yes, there is  a reason I left Theresa off the list...

[Farbautisonn]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...
culture, time,

Those two are inescapable; the latter two are.

...what?

[Hunter of Legends]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...
culture, time,

Those two are inescapable; the latter two are.

...what?

Culture and Time are both key aspect of morality and philosophic views. 300 Years ago slavery was perfectly alright and completely sound practice.

Social class and money are both viewpoints one can escape; especially if materialism isn't a key factor in your life.

[QuarkZ26]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

QuarkZ26 wrote...
Mother Theresa. 'nuff said.

-So you say...

Yes, there is  a reason I left Theresa off the list...

I'm sure that if I google enough i'll find critics about MLK and Ghandi as well... I won't even put Jesus in the conversation.