374 réponses à ce sujet

[blacqout]

Terastar wrote...

It takes more courage to play Paragon than it does to play a Renegade.
Renegades just follow their emotions and whatever idea pops into their head at the spur of the moment. A Paragon takes all things into consideration then makes the best choice for that encounter to make the the most successful outcome for the present and also for the future.

You mean paragons metagame. That's the only way anyone could spare the Rachni Queen and think they've done something good for the galaxy.

That's the decision i'd like to see backfire.

[Dean_the_Young]

In my experience, Paragons are the ones more inclined to be driven by their emotions and the positive-validation reassurances. I've seen very few Renegades who claim to enjoy all the Renegade tones, but a good number of Paragons who flinch at the mere sound of not being polite. It's not surprising, given the powerful feeling of a warm glow when you're the nice guy and people thank you, but it's hardly impartial or deliberate. Social approval, even from video games, is like crack to many people.

Neither side particularly has claim to being thoroughly thoughtful.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 février 2012 - 02:27 .

[Arrtis]

blacqout wrote...

Terastar wrote...

It takes more courage to play Paragon than it does to play a Renegade.
Renegades just follow their emotions and whatever idea pops into their head at the spur of the moment. A Paragon takes all things into consideration then makes the best choice for that encounter to make the the most successful outcome for the present and also for the future.

You mean paragons metagame. That's the only way anyone could spare the Rachni Queen and think they've done something good for the galaxy.

That's the decision i'd like to see backfire.

saving the rachni queen is also the neutral option.

[DiosMios]

I think saving the Rachni Queen has the most potential to end quite badly for Paragon players.

"All right, I'm going to make a little deal with you bugs. I'm going to let you all out to help beat the Reapers if you promise to return to your planet."
"Sorry, Shepard, we can't make that promise."
"All right... all right, I'll sweeten the deal. You can fight the Reapers, you don't have to go back, but you have to promise not to start any more wars, OK?"
"No."
"I'll take that as a yes."

[Ninjapino]

Haha, damn you, OP.....I can't even be mad at you because it's very "renegade" of you to post this....

Modifié par Ninjapino, 28 février 2012 - 02:40 .

[Mann42]

I will be disappointed if some of the Paragon choices don't punish you and create tragedy and drama. I will also be disappointed if some of the Renegade decisions don't surprise you by being extremely beneficial.

I honestly hope that the best* path through the game is a nice mix of renegade and paragon decisions. I want the extreme ways of Paragon or Renegade to be filled with ups and downs. I want the game to feel like a series of emotional gut-punches. No other medium than games can create such a visceral, interactive experience, and it would be a waste if one path or another gets a gold star just for showing up. 


*Best in a meta-gaming sense of getting the 'best' ending, since that's honestly the only way you'd really care.

[JBONE27]

Was Bring Down the Moon worth it? I know that Pinnacle Station was not worth one MS point. Seriously, that was the most boring, pointless DLC I've ever seen a play through of... What was the point of that?

Also, since when do you date your LI, I just sleep with them right before I save the galaxy.  Shepard doesn't have time to date anyway, she's too busy... being delcious.

Modifié par JBONE27, 28 février 2012 - 02:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

DiosMios wrote...

I think saving the Rachni Queen has the most potential to end quite badly for Paragon players.

It's a question of genocide against a quasi-sympathetic individual claiming innocence at your mercy making unverifiable claims towards historic compulsion.

This is Bioware. It was never going to turn bad for you, lest they inadverdantly justify genocide.

[Ninjapino]

JBONE27 wrote...

Was Bring Down the Moon worth it? I know that Pinnacle Station was not worth one MS point. Seriously, that was the most boring, pointless DLC I've ever seen a play through of... What was the point of that?

What was the point of this post in this thread.....? 

Also, no to Pinnacle Station.....Bringing down the Sky was alright. 

[Dean_the_Young]

nexworks wrote...

I will be disappointed if some of the Paragon choices don't punish you and create tragedy and drama. I will also be disappointed if some of the Renegade decisions don't surprise you by being extremely beneficial.

I honestly hope that the best* path through the game is a nice mix of renegade and paragon decisions. I want the extreme ways of Paragon or Renegade to be filled with ups and downs. I want the game to feel like a series of emotional gut-punches. No other medium than games can create such a visceral, interactive experience, and it would be a waste if one path or another gets a gold star just for showing up. 


*Best in a meta-gaming sense of getting the 'best' ending, since that's honestly the only way you'd really care.

By and large, this doesn't happen. The 'stick to your morals' tweet awhile ago was pretty straight, and the best things come from just being more of what you already were. The few Paragon options not optimal are corrected by being more Paragon. The Renegade options mitigate some of the comparitive loss assuming you stay Renegade. It's switching between the two that gets worse results.

As it is, the only Paragon decisions so far that are 'bad' for you are... well, none. Geth-Quarian peace is a bit harder, unless you made some Paragon persuasion checks.

[Destroy Raiden_]

truestatic wrote...

I myself am primarily a paragon player. When I try to do a dark side playthrough, or a renegade playthrough, or whatever, I usually find it pretty difficult to follow through on. It doesn't appeal to me.

That's beside the point though. The point is, I don't really know what the results of a renegade playthrough are. Since this thread is about how everything always sucks for Renegades, and it's not fair that Paragons always have everything work out for them, and Paragons should suffer the consequences of not being able to sacrifice the few to save the many, or the consequences of placing their trust in the untrustworthy, I'm curious to ask.

What exactly have been the dramatic negative consequences of playing a Renegade character?

People really hate you for killing the council?

Talk to that Turian on the citidel he's vicious if you kill them he hates humans with the scorn of 10,000 suns see the same Turian if you save them and he's totally fine with you coming in the store other wise its humans need not enter my domain.

But in truth both sides do have choices that will benefit them or hurt them para's are taking more risks trusting the Rachni will be able to overcome indoctrination a second time, trusting the the geth were telling them the truth and the ones you rewrote were indeed badgeth, trusting research girl on Virmire then finding her working in the same field then running off you know that ones going to bite you in the ass. Rens don't really trust people keeping that base it does indoctrinate, killing the queen you may've lost a powerful ally, gaining Aria's trust you're hoping she's going to be your ally or worse she'll betray you to the reapers like she betrayed the patriarch.  

[phimseto]

Ninjapino wrote...

Haha, damn you, OP.....I can't even be mad at you because it's very "renegade" or you to post this....

LOL, I try, thank you!

Hello, everyone!  I have  to say...WHAT A DELIGHT!  A most excellent thread.  It strikes me that the snarky types and trolls simply haven't read the thread at all and didn't get past the subject header or first couple of sentences of my original post.  For the rest of you, bravo!  This thread has gone all over the place, while still circling my original themes.  I appreciate that, and have really enjoyed reading and responding to many of you. 

For me, as I wrote earlier (see link below), Mass Effect is that original stated goal: one story told across three games.  That meant decisions and unintended consequences that stretch out over three games.  Something minor in the first game could end up being something major in the third. Something significant in the second game could end up being even more significant than you realize, and for reasons you never even considered.  That kind of bravery in storytelling is what convinced me that I needed to buy a Xbox 360.  I needed to experience that story.  

This is why I'm disappointed in those of you who defend the idea that it's okay to water down the consequences to make gamers happy or to discount events in earlier games because it's "not fair" to players.  You can play 99.9% of other games and have the same piddling experience.  The Mass Effect trilogy was meant to be something different - it was meant to challenge and redefine what you could do with storytelling in a series of games.  I've heard different things about how ME3 approaches stuff (please, no spoilers here), and all we can do is wait and experience the game in a week.   I want Bioware to fulfill that ambition, and hope they pull it off.   If they don't, then we should all be disappointed.  With EA now in charge, we won't see Bioware trying anything quite so lofty again, not with the (mis)perception that you shrink your audience from each game on unless you streamline it for new players.  

Main point of this thread for you newcomers:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/9494925/6#9497799

Modifié par phimseto, 28 février 2012 - 02:52 .

[SnakeStrike8]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

truestatic wrote...

I myself am primarily a paragon player. When I try to do a dark side playthrough, or a renegade playthrough, or whatever, I usually find it pretty difficult to follow through on. It doesn't appeal to me.

That's beside the point though. The point is, I don't really know what the results of a renegade playthrough are. Since this thread is about how everything always sucks for Renegades, and it's not fair that Paragons always have everything work out for them, and Paragons should suffer the consequences of not being able to sacrifice the few to save the many, or the consequences of placing their trust in the untrustworthy, I'm curious to ask.

What exactly have been the dramatic negative consequences of playing a Renegade character?

People really hate you for killing the council?

Talk to that Turian on the citidel he's vicious if you kill them he hates humans with the scorn of 10,000 suns see the same Turian if you save them and he's totally fine with you coming in the store other wise its humans need not enter my domain.  

I think this is a non-issue. One turian shopkeeper throws snark at you, but you can still convince him to give you your discount. It doesn't even cost more paragon/renegade points than saving the Council.
Aside from him, the only other person I can think of who gives you grief for leaving off the Council is Kalara Tomi. Every other shopkeeper on the Citadel doesn't react any differently to you based on the Council's status. You're never beset by angry mobs wanting to avange the Council. Nothing changes.
I don't see why renegades are mad at that turian.

[MinervaHamster]

This thread is just full of badasses i suppose....

[P_Bed]

Even though i prefer paragon i think thats that's a great idea that makes the characters so much deeper and that's exactly what happens in real life when people are tested for their goodness.

Terrible things happen to them, for once what they at one point thought was the right decision blows up in their face and directly affects them and what's worse destroys someone they love. So the game tests you and from then by pitching you theses choices.Will you redouble you efforts become a fanatic and thus a different type of the very same trash you're out to take down? Or will it be her life that you choose to remember by seeking retribution instead of revenge, Championing life instead of loss and by doing so transcending your own childish need for appeasement. Because it is not darkness that expels light it can never be, in fact in this case the shadow only proves the sunlight that birthed it's cause. We are dim creatures, human beings only we can chose to which way our switch turns and every man is proven by his choice. Will it be what's easy or whats right?

TL:DR - Why Paragon > Renegade

Modifié par P_Bed, 28 février 2012 - 03:31 .

[phimseto]

P_Bed, great response and you hit the nail on the head.  What happens when you do something good (paragon) but it ends up having a dire consequence?  How do you adapt?  What happens when you are faced with a similar choice again?  That's where the drama is, or as Bioware likes to call it...the EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT!   If it's just "press blue to win", then you're failing the story completely.  

I have to take issue with this, though:  

P_Bed wrote...

TL:DR - Why Paragon > Renegade

The TL:DR crowd shouldn't be coddled.   They'll just respond to that without seeing or understanding the nuance of what you wrote, and the point will be lost (not that it wouldn't be lost on them anyway).  

See...there's a case of a paragon decision blowing up in your face!  


Main point of this thread for you newcomers:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/9494925/6#9497799

Modifié par phimseto, 28 février 2012 - 03:39 .

[Brownfinger]

sackyhack wrote...

I read the spoilers, Renegades are screwed

This.
Suck it, bad guys.

[Legion64]

I'd hate for that to happen to my LI but that would bad some good debt to the story. And you got it wrong, in ME3, the RENEGADES get it BAD, just like they always have.

Modifié par Legion64, 28 février 2012 - 03:44 .

[BlueMagitek]

AlexXIV wrote...

The problem was I made a wrong call when I attacked Balak. That was the excuse. But the game acted as if I wanted to justify it. If I could have said hey sorry. I didn't want to sacrifice the hostages but I thought I could take him out before he blows everything up rather than trying to disarm the charges of which I don't even know when they blow up. But no, the only things I could say was a justificationf for letting hostages die or not letting Balak get away. The game couldn't even understand my true motivation and call it a fail. That's the problem I have with roleplaying in single player games. If you roleplay with other people then they understand. But stupid NPCs can only understand what the devs made them understand. That's why roleplaying doesn't really work if you only have two paths to go down of which one is labeled 'fail' and the other 'win'.

You made the wrong call?  How?  You took down a dangerous terrorist who had already killed hostages before; if you let him go, he could have just  blown them up while he was standing at the doorway.  You can't take his word for it; he was just trying to asteroid-nuke a planet!

As for the limited responses, well, that's just what comes with voice acting.  It isn't that they can't write dialog that matches your justification, it's just that VA cost.  And, this is an RPG (or was an RPG, I'm sure the jury is still out on that one), you're supposed to role play your character.

Renegade isn't the fail path either.  Or, rather, it shouldn't be. ~_~

[Dark Eff3ct]

***SPOILER****SPOILER***SPOILER***haha to bad i can convince Balak to be on my side... NO SUCH LUCK TO YOU ****SPOILER***SPOILER***SPOILER***

[eskr]

blacqout wrote...

Terastar wrote...

It takes more courage to play Paragon than it does to play a Renegade.
Renegades just follow their emotions and whatever idea pops into their head at the spur of the moment. A Paragon takes all things into consideration then makes the best choice for that encounter to make the the most successful outcome for the present and also for the future.

You mean paragons metagame. That's the only way anyone could spare the Rachni Queen and think they've done something good for the galaxy.

That's the decision i'd like to see backfire.

I saved the Rachni queen.  (The opposite was murder her in cold blood, there's no middle ground like "call in the council".)
BUT, I have to say it's not a bright decision from a Reaper standpoint. 
I mean, assume you buy that the whole war was because they were brainwashed by Reapers.  What's to stop that from happening again?? 

[snakeboy86]

You better watch it my friend, I may be a paragon but I'll still cut your manhood off and sell it to a krogan lol

[AxisEvolve]

Arppis wrote...

Alliance recruitment numbers went down when you gave that body under study to deceases soldier's husband in ME1.

There, bitten to the butt! But hey, FREE MEALS!

TANSTAAFL

[Hunter of Legends]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Most Paragon decisions are about trust, the Renegade option often involves not trusting that individual. If the Paragon always receives the free pass with no consequences, the Renegade decision becomes invalid and there's no point in doing it.

Which is exactly how ME3 handled it, though I assume nobody really cares at this point as most (not all) of you only want happy endings and would metagame regardless.

I care:(

[BlueMagitek]

eskr wrote...

I saved the Rachni queen.  (The opposite was murder her in cold blood, there's no middle ground like "call in the council".)
BUT, I have to say it's not a bright decision from a Reaper standpoint. 
I mean, assume you buy that the whole war was because they were brainwashed by Reapers.  What's to stop that from happening again?? 

It's not even that.  All Shepard knows about the Rachni is that they invaded, didn't make contact (just assaults), and it took the Krogan to put them down.  Shepard's meeting with the Rachni queen is almost First Contact (depending if you count Beneziah or not).  Just letting the Rachni queen go is horribly irresponsible, especially for someone who is supposed to enforce the will of the Council as their secret police.

And don't worry about what the Turian Councilor yells at you about; you were just doing what the Krogan couldn't.