94 réponses à ce sujet

[Ludica]

 Hello, my Origin ID is RonaldAKnox, feel free to call me a noob as i go further with what i have to say. I've been with this demo since the 17th of Feburary, i've tried all the classes to find out what i do best, and looked up forums for advice on how not to fall on noob traps. As i gathered knowledge on how Mass Effect 3 multiplayer works, i found that the balance is nowhere near... well... balanced. I found certain race/class sets are indeed overpowered after my own experince with using them and being in a team with them. However, the argument that many people make is that "it's a co-op game, so the term "overpowered" does not exist here".

 I find this completely and utterly wrong.

 Of course, the usual definition of overpowered(gives wins over other players that require far less effort than they should) does not apply here, for there are no players to win over, co-op after all.(Captain Obvious would like to strike again. He apologizes sincerely.) Then what is the definiton of overpowered here? I present two interpretations:

 1)class/Race X nullifies his/her teammates's effort.

 Now i know what you're thinking. I know "stealing kills" does not exist due to everybody getting xp of everybody's points total and that assists often give far more points than kills. I know all that. And it's not what this is about. This is about your contribution to the overall game. Because i imagine not all players want to be lazy bastards. Do you feel the game excites you when another player does what you do in a microsecond because he/she plays as an infintely better character? Do you feel the game is great(which it is, i am in no way bashing it) when you may as well go make some coffee as a Vanguard takes care of anything coming your way?(Vanguard hate etc etc) The point is, you get to do absolutely nothing. And it's not interesting.

 2)class/Race X cripples the choice

 The most blatant example would be the poor class of Adept. When i played through the demo, i have gone through all the troubles of leveling up the poor, insignificant, waste-of-a-cool-appearance guy that is human Adept. Until i got to asari Adept and my experience with ME3 demo flew sky-high. Because of what is essentially a one ability. Stasis is infintely better than Singularity. Now i love my Asari adept and i win games with her, but i gotta ask myself... why do other adepts exist? What's the point of them when the asari is absolutely superior? To suffer through leveling them up while waiting for that beautiful blue-skinned gold card? And not just over other adepts. Stasis makes asari adept one of the only "always userful" classes on Gold. 

 What is guilty of this?

 And that's what puzzled me. Why? Why are these classes are so damn good? Then i realised the fundamental flaw in mass effect balance. Mainly...

 Everybody is made of glass.

 Skip this point if you're playing Bronze. Consider skipping this point if you never seen the amounts of damage Gold enemies do. The point is quite simple: when the enemies three-shot everything, classes that are built with this in mind become more userful than the others. classes that can quickly dispatch the enemy before they get a chance to react. When the world is made of glass, it's ruled by glass cannons. 

 What do you guys think?

[LadyAlekto]

So you want to tell me fem infiltrator and sentinel are op? Shame on you!

Just because the other classes help most to get some more points doesnt mean they enhance anyone who uses them equally (tho i must say, basically soloing silver without effort as vanguard let me think that someone with some basic understanding of it makes it quite strong)

I personally cant rock as hard with most classes as i do with either my sentinel or infiltrator, they just perfectly enhance MY playstyle

[DarkSpider88]

I get what you are saying and there is some truth to it. However All classes have some areas where they have an advantage.

Take the Salarian infiltrator for example, his weapon damage and shields are the best but his tactical cloak allows him to do things other classes can't. When there is a challenge to disable the beacons he can sneak past all the enemies and disable it. He can also sneak behind guardians and shoot them.

The MP games is not a head to head competition but is about everybody putting in their own skills and getting the job done.

[Zing Freelancer]

Infiltrator + Widow = love big big.

Anyhow, Shockwave is kind of a game breaker for sniper loving people like me because of all the screen shacking.
I bet many people get pissed about snipers stealing their kills, but I am yet to hear one prise an Infiltrator head shooting a Phantom long before she becomes a threat or killing Atlast in less then 15 seconds.

[sideshow-]

Overpowered doesn't exist in competitive games (not to the extent that people whine about), never mind in co-op. Trying to judge something as OP based off a demo with 2 levels and 1 faction is pretty daft: for example, it's likely that while vanguard are good against Cerberus, they're gonna suck against Krogan's. You can't determine the strength of anything until you have the game.

[Sock N Boppers]

Also, alot of the overpowered classes are tiltled incorrectly.

Everyone says that building defense, going dual heavies or not going asari/salarian will get you gibbed instantly on gold.
Instead me and some friends ran through gold. Two krogan, an engineer and an asari who joined in about wave 7. We were very happy when we passed through gold to get a full extraction, plus having the most points as a krogan tank was a nice bonus.

What I'm trying to say is, class wise; A class is only as powerful as your play style.

Edit @ Below: I was also using the Claymore I at the time I think, another highly underrated object that preforms well in such scenarios.

Modifié par Sock N Boppers, 27 février 2012 - 03:53 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

I've beat gold with a good squad, and me carrying a claymore. Many people say it's not optimal or the CM is terrible, I disagree and enjoy the shotgun playstyle. I never feel underpowered or useless and contribute well to the overall team.

I've learned to use my own experience instead of others.

[Lokrium]

There definitely needs to be some balancing done before release. Even though the game is co-op, balance is still extremely important.
Personally, I would like to see a significant (30%-50%) increase on Stasis cooldown, a buff to the Drell Vanguard's barriers, a minor cooldown increase on tactical cloak, some kind of minor buff to the Human Soldier, a nerf to heavy pistol damage/accuracy at range, a buff to Revenant accuracy, and someone to tell me how to use tech armor properly.
I have faith in Bioware that bugs like falling through the level, and the moddability of the multiplayer part of Coalesced.ini will be fixed.
Edit: and the Vanguard novaroll bug.
That's my wishlist for release.

Modifié par Lokrium, 27 février 2012 - 03:53 .

[count_4]

The problem with ME MP is that there are basically 18 classes. It's just next to impossible to make them all equally useful without making them, in fact, rather equal.

[Lycidas]

Can we please wait to see how different race/class combinations work against different enemies before we judge balance. It's not like BioWare is going to do anything about it between now and release anyways.

[xFRESH]

If you don't want to step outside of the 'overpowered' Asari Adept class then don't. But if you complain that it's the only class you want to use b.c. it's the 'strongest' then well... you're an idiot for complaining. Challenge yourself.
1) In Gold, a smart Vanguard doesn't take care of 'everything'. He needs friends when those waves of 8 Phantoms come skipping at him. I can usually cover the back steps on Firebase White with my Vanguard class but I start screaming for help as soon as I see a Phantom or two because it's a TEAM game and I don't want to screw the TEAM by dying. I bother the Phantoms while my invis Infiltrator friend headshots that **** with a Widow. I cover the bottom so my 3 other friends can cover the landing pad and the walkway perpendicular to it. I can go whole waves in which I rarely kill anyone because I have a duty to cover the back area.
2) Are you really asking why other classes exist, even if one has a stronger power? Like seriously? Choice is the flavor of life my friend. Yes Asari Adepts are very helpful on Gold, but so is a Vanguard or Infiltrator. I enjoy playing with a team of Infilitrators Engineers and Vanguards on Gold and have survived too.

[Cloaking_Thane]

count_4 wrote...

The problem with ME MP is that there are basically 18 classes. It's just next to impossible to make them all equally useful without making them, in fact, rather equal.

It's like ME2 squad all over again!

[elferin91]

some people like more challenge
for example i like playing sentinel because sweeping other classes in scoreboard and at the same time being more useful then them makes me feel big

[Ludica]

xFRESH wrote...

If you don't want to step outside of the 'overpowered' Asari Adept class then don't. But if you complain that it's the only class you want to use b.c. it's the 'strongest' then well... you're an idiot for complaining. Challenge yourself.
1) In Gold, a smart Vanguard doesn't take care of 'everything'. He needs friends when those waves of 8 Phantoms come skipping at him. I can usually cover the back steps on Firebase White with my Vanguard class but I start screaming for help as soon as I see a Phantom or two because it's a TEAM game and I don't want to screw the TEAM by dying. I bother the Phantoms while my invis Infiltrator friend headshots that **** with a Widow. I cover the bottom so my 3 other friends can cover the landing pad and the walkway perpendicular to it. I can go whole waves in which I rarely kill anyone because I have a duty to cover the back area.
2) Are you really asking why other classes exist, even if one has a stronger power? Like seriously? Choice is the flavor of life my friend. Yes Asari Adepts are very helpful on Gold, but so is a Vanguard or Infiltrator. I enjoy playing with a team of Infilitrators Engineers and Vanguards on Gold and have survived too.

 I'm not biting my hand via complaining a class i use the best is overpowered(that'd be weird. Admittedly, i'm a bit bitter for suffering through human Adept hell) I'm trying to say that balance in co-op games can be flawed. 

1)I can't see a Vanguard having trouble with phantoms due to a certain bug everybody knows about. I can, however, see the turrets blasting the poor speedball away because somebody let the engineer set it up.

2)Yes. I understand that people beat tournaments full of Sagat players with Dan(Street Fighter references ftw) and those people are awesome. I'm not saying why Vanguards(lol), Infiltrators, or Engineers exist. I ask why other adepts exist. That was the adept example. I can see the whole adept class being weaker against other enemies via more of them being in armor, but that's for adepts as a whole, not just asari.

[Berkilak]

When not selecting said class becomes a liability to your efforts, something is wrong.

[JohnDoe]

Ludica wrote...


 Everybody is made of glass.

 Skip this point if you're playing Bronze. Consider skipping this point if you never seen the amounts of damage Gold enemies do. The point is quite simple: when the enemies three-shot everything, classes that are built with this in mind become more userful than the others. classes that can quickly dispatch the enemy before they get a chance to react. When the world is made of glass, it's ruled by glass cannons. 

 What do you guys think?

I disagree in the last part..
Mobility and strategy also plays a huge role.
a faster player can outmanouver almost anything, get into safe situtation to land more strategic hits than a glass canon (with all energy/power on attack)

[Ludica]

JohnDoe wrote...

I disagree in the last part..
Mobility and strategy also plays a huge role.
a faster player can outmanouver almost anything, get into safe situtation to land more strategic hits than a glass canon (with all energy/power on attack)

I see what you mean, but i see the mobility as essential to everyone, not just class X or class Y.

[the almighty moo]

I think if there was anything to be classed as OP, it would be if they added a krogan vanguard.

nothing like one shotting a combat engineer with a heavy melee to make you giggle.

[Berkilak]

Ludica wrote...

JohnDoe wrote...

I disagree in the last part..
Mobility and strategy also plays a huge role.
a faster player can outmanouver almost anything, get into safe situtation to land more strategic hits than a glass canon (with all energy/power on attack)

I see what you mean, but i see the mobility as essential to everyone, not just class X or class Y.

It is more essential to some classes, however.

[l DryIce l]

The cooldown for the Vanguard's charge is just way too low. Since Nova makes the Vanguard temporarily invincible ( as well as charge), it's just too easy for him/her to mindlessly charge/nova/charge/nova throughout the whole game. No weapons needed. Very minor threats to the Vanguard.

The human Sentinel, Adept, and Soldier simply do not have the ability to do the same amount of damage...to be equally useful in a silver/gold match.

[Thoragoros]

Ludica wrote...

xFRESH wrote...

If you don't want to step outside of the 'overpowered' Asari Adept class then don't. But if you complain that it's the only class you want to use b.c. it's the 'strongest' then well... you're an idiot for complaining. Challenge yourself.
1) In Gold, a smart Vanguard doesn't take care of 'everything'. He needs friends when those waves of 8 Phantoms come skipping at him. I can usually cover the back steps on Firebase White with my Vanguard class but I start screaming for help as soon as I see a Phantom or two because it's a TEAM game and I don't want to screw the TEAM by dying. I bother the Phantoms while my invis Infiltrator friend headshots that **** with a Widow. I cover the bottom so my 3 other friends can cover the landing pad and the walkway perpendicular to it. I can go whole waves in which I rarely kill anyone because I have a duty to cover the back area.
2) Are you really asking why other classes exist, even if one has a stronger power? Like seriously? Choice is the flavor of life my friend. Yes Asari Adepts are very helpful on Gold, but so is a Vanguard or Infiltrator. I enjoy playing with a team of Infilitrators Engineers and Vanguards on Gold and have survived too.

 I'm not biting my hand via complaining a class i use the best is overpowered(that'd be weird. Admittedly, i'm a bit bitter for suffering through human Adept hell) I'm trying to say that balance in co-op games can be flawed. 

1)I can't see a Vanguard having trouble with phantoms due to a certain bug everybody knows about. I can, however, see the turrets blasting the poor speedball away because somebody let the engineer set it up.

2)Yes. I understand that people beat tournaments full of Sagat players with Dan(Street Fighter references ftw) and those people are awesome. I'm not saying why Vanguards(lol), Infiltrators, or Engineers exist. I ask why other adepts exist. That was the adept example. I can see the whole adept class being weaker against other enemies via more of them being in armor, but that's for adepts as a whole, not just asari.

The Asari Adept is very a fragile character, whose reliance on her 'space magic' is so absolute that carrying anything heavier than a pistol or light SMG is practically suicidal.  Add to that the fact that her 'dodge' eats through her barriers, and frankly, her Statis power is the only thing saving her, and that's more for 'squad support' than raw power.  She is a support class, plain and simple.

Furthermore, is it not possible that certain classes, and certain Races of certain classes, will be more useful against certain types of enemies than others?  Isn't it possible that not all races/classes are equally effective against every enemy type?  So since we've only seen 1 Enemy Fact in the Demo, how are we supposed to judge anything fairly?

Maybe certain classes feel a bit 'off' fighting Cerberus, but whose to say they won't be boss against the Husks or Geth?

Modifié par Thoragoros, 27 février 2012 - 04:50 .

[redafro]

asari adept is not overpowerd, usefull indeed and in silver often enough to ceep a fail team alive (3 soldiers for instance)
stasis is awsome bit it just compliments the other classes, snipers get an easier shot, people have less chance to get stabbed by phantoms, and when they are not bleeding out on the floor, they can shoot at that big atlas coming for you slowly but steadely

are some classes more vital then others? yeah probably, they are not always needed but they make life on gold a lot easier. it doesn't make them op, just usefull.

as for your talk about human adept, well, we don't really know what kinds of other enemy's we ll be facing once the full game is out but when we face less shield heavy opponents i am sure singularity will be far more usefull then it is now, same with the quarian engi's cryo skill. the game feels a bit unbalanced now because your only fighting cerberus, wait till the full game is out before passing judgement on classes and races.

[redafro]

@ Thoragoros

maxed asari adept can field an AR and still have 200% cooldown reduction, if skilled right annyways

p.s. it seems we said the same things at the same time more or less

Modifié par redafro, 27 février 2012 - 04:56 .

[Wulfram]

If I can topscore with them on a successful gold run, they're probably overpowered.

[Indoctrinated Spectre]

While I agree with the OP, I can tell you that a human adept's singularity can- Oh nevermind, the Asari's stasis bubble can also CC husk hordes. Yep, he's right.