94 réponses à ce sujet

[Ludica]

redafro wrote...

p.s. it seems we said the same things at the same time more or less

You two did, so i'm gonna answer in one post to you both.

Well, about the weapon thing i'm perfectly fine with my max upgrade Phalanx X. I can kill anything i stasised on Gold with it fast enough, but i prefer either biotic booms or somebody else with a Widow doing the job.

Yes, it's entirely possible that the balance will shift against other enemies, but i can't see that solving the disbalance within a certain class. Stasis bubble is still more reliable than Singularity even if less enemies ignore it. And Nova is still better than grenades or even stasis(lol irony).

[Berkilak]

Ludica wrote...

redafro wrote...

p.s. it seems we said the same things at the same time more or less

You two did, so i'm gonna answer in one post to you both.

Well, about the weapon thing i'm perfectly fine with my max upgrade Phalanx X. I can kill anything i stasised on Gold with it fast enough, but i prefer either biotic booms or somebody else with a Widow doing the job.

Yes, it's entirely possible that the balance will shift against other enemies, but i can't see that solving the disbalance within a certain class. Stasis bubble is still more reliable than Singularity even if less enemies ignore it. And Nova is still better than grenades or even stasis(lol irony).

As long as you have an ability that CCs enemies regardless of their defenses, you will be overpowered relative to all others than seek to emulate that support role.

[redafro]

Ludica wrote...

redafro wrote...

p.s. it seems we said the same things at the same time more or less

You two did, so i'm gonna answer in one post to you both.

Well, about the weapon thing i'm perfectly fine with my max upgrade Phalanx X. I can kill anything i stasised on Gold with it fast enough, but i prefer either biotic booms or somebody else with a Widow doing the job.

Yes, it's entirely possible that the balance will shift against other enemies, but i can't see that solving the disbalance within a certain class. Stasis bubble is still more reliable than Singularity even if less enemies ignore it. And Nova is still better than grenades or even stasis(lol irony).

you might be right, all i am saying is, wait and see first.
even if they are stronger, i still don't really see the problem

[Berkilak]

redafro wrote...

you might be right, all i am saying is, wait and see first.
even if they are stronger, i still don't really see the problem

Because it shoehorns people into a choice that may not be their preference if they wish to remain competitive and contribute to their team in their utmost capacity - if a class is capable of an advantageous mechanic that no other class is, that is unbalancing. I'm not saying that it is overpowered, but given that other classes lack an equitable advantage of the same gravity, it is simply not balanced.

[LadyAlekto]

singularity + throw anyone btw, a enemy captured in the singularity have no mass.

I for one believe the asari to be usefull, but not op, its a papertarget, the stasis can't actually be thrown around a corner and has a longer charge then singularity

Thank you but i stay with my tec armor or cloak

[TeaL3af]

sideshow- wrote...

Overpowered doesn't exist in competitive games (not to the extent that people whine about), never mind in co-op. .

Of course it does, stop being silly.

Anyway BioWare has yet to release a game with anywhere near decent balance, I doubt they will actually manage to make ME3 balanced even after a few patches.

class balance is fairly broken, Asari Adept, Human Engy and Salarian Infiltrator are just the best overall classes. It doesn't matter that they can't carry much, as pistols are better than every other weapon except in certain specific situations where snipers and shotguns can prevail, but not by much. It doesn't matter that they have low HP, because everyone dies pretty much insantly on gold anyway, the only class that takes noticably more damage is the Krogan Soldier and he still can't exactly tank.

Weapon balance also breaks class balance even more, and the fact that combat classes can't really carry much more than "squishy" classes doesn't help. In my opinion the AR should be flat out superior to both the SMG and Pistol, and the Shotguns should totally rape in CQC. All the big weapons should be heavy enough that taking them as an Adept or Engineer should be a difficult choice, whilst the Inf and Sent should get a little more leeway and the Soldier and Vanguard should be able to carry a lot.

[Hartmann262]

There are people that seriously believe that having both stasis and the ability to chain infinite ranged biotic explosions is actually fine on a single character?

lol

[TeaL3af]

Hartmann262 wrote...

There are people that seriously believe that having both stasis and the ability to chain infinite ranged biotic explosions is actually fine on a single character?

lol

There are people that don't actually believe in overpowered or underpowered as concepts. Which to me is like not believeing in gravity.

[TexasToast712]

A gun that shoots rockets at a ridiculous rate of fire and kills everything in one hit would be overpowered in a CooP only game. A hand cannon that packs a hell of a punch as intended is not. Even though some idiots think so.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 27 février 2012 - 05:50 .

[Ludica]

TeaL3af wrote...

There are people that don't actually believe in overpowered or underpowered as concepts. Which to me is like not believeing in gravity.

Oh my god Newthon lied to us all! That deadly son of a **** in space.

In all seriousness, yes. People that instantly assume the developers are omniscent gods and can instantly make perfect balance despite how difficult(if even possible) it is, and immune to mistakes, tend to get very annoying.

And they call anyone who points out a balance flaw(correctly or not), a scrub.

The misuse of that term bugged me a lot throughout many discussions like this, not just mass effect.

A scrub is someone who tries to force his/her playstyle on other via demanding nerfs on other styles, buffs to it's own(which should totally be immune to nerfs).

[ejmcdonald]

Ludica wrote...

 I ask why other adepts exist. That was the adept example. I can see the whole adept class being weaker against other enemies via more of them being in armor, but that's for adepts as a whole, not just asari.

you unlock other classes through out the game the great thing about a co-op game is you can have another race more powerful (as its a later unlock) you cannot do that in a competative game because otherwise the people with the better unlocks would own everyone without therefore they are overpowered. The only exception to this rule is the drell vangaurd that I have seen is not as good as the human.

Could you imagine a Krogan sentinal an asari vangaurd and a quarian engineer OH NO THEY ARE OP NERF THEM. 

It is like turning PVP on as a LVL 1 human on WoW and getting killed by a lvl 70 orc and moaning it is OP

[Valshren.Rothchild]

I dont know where you feel like human adept was terrible. Singularity was a great tool for detonations, and I did plenty of damage. I very much enjoyed playing the human adept, while on my quest for asari adept. Considering Asari is an unlock, it would make complete sense that it has some kind of better skill.

[TeaL3af]

TexasToast712 wrote...

A gun that shoots rockets at a ridiculous rate of fire and kills everything it hits would be overpowered in a CooP only game. A hand cannon that packs a hell of a punch as intended is not. Even though some idiots think so.

It is when it is just better than all the other heavier weapons. All the ARs and SMGs are just worse than the heavy pistols. The single shot snipers are about on par with them and the shotguns are only better in that they can stagger, they actually do about the same damage.

[Cuthlan]

TeaL3af wrote...

Hartmann262 wrote...

There are people that seriously believe that having both stasis and the ability to chain infinite ranged biotic explosions is actually fine on a single character?

lol

There are people that don't actually believe in overpowered or underpowered as concepts. Which to me is like not believeing in gravity.

And then there are those that do believe in OP and UP concepts, but do not think they matter in a coop game where everyone shares experience.

Modifié par Cuthlan, 27 février 2012 - 06:02 .

[TexasToast712]

TeaL3af wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

A gun that shoots rockets at a ridiculous rate of fire and kills everything it hits would be overpowered in a CooP only game. A hand cannon that packs a hell of a punch as intended is not. Even though some idiots think so.

It is when it is just better than all the other heavier weapons. All the ARs and SMGs are just worse than the heavy pistols. The single shot snipers are about on par with them and the shotguns are only better in that they can stagger, they actually do about the same damage.

AR's and Shotguns get better mods in full game that give them better advantages.

[Lycidas]

TeaL3af wrote...

Hartmann262 wrote...

There are people that seriously believe that having both stasis and the ability to chain infinite ranged biotic explosions is actually fine on a single character?

lol

There are people that don't actually believe in overpowered or underpowered as concepts. Which to me is like not believeing in gravity.

Some people just know out of experience that this "balance" discussion will never end. Things might get nerfed others buffed just so people can start the same wining again with a new target. At the end the tings are going to be more messed up than they were at the beginning or every class just plays like a copy of the next one. It happened before and it will happen again.

[TeaL3af]

ejmcdonald wrote...

Ludica wrote...

 I ask why other adepts exist. That was the adept example. I can see the whole adept class being weaker against other enemies via more of them being in armor, but that's for adepts as a whole, not just asari.

you unlock other classes through out the game the great thing about a co-op game is you can have another race more powerful (as its a later unlock) you cannot do that in a competative game because otherwise the people with the better unlocks would own everyone without therefore they are overpowered. The only exception to this rule is the drell vangaurd that I have seen is not as good as the human.

Could you imagine a Krogan sentinal an asari vangaurd and a quarian engineer OH NO THEY ARE OP NERF THEM. 

It is like turning PVP on as a LVL 1 human on WoW and getting killed by a lvl 70 orc and moaning it is OP

Not really. People shouldn't have to choose between playing the race/class they like and being effective. BioWare should be trying to make everything as even as possible so people can enjoy playing their chosen character without worrying about gimping their team.

Cuthlan wrote...

And then there are those that do believe in OP and UP concepts, but do not think they matter in a coop game where everyone shares experience.

 

Why wouldn't it? Just because you don't believe the unbalance matters doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it does matter.

Lycidas wrote...

Some people just know out of experience that this "balance" discussion will never end. Things might get nerfed others buffed just so people can start the same wining again with a new target. At the end the tings are going to be more messed up than they were at the beginning or every class just plays like a copy of the next one. It happened before and it will happen again.

 

True, some people will never shut up. But the game can get to a state where most people don't worry too much about balance unless they are playing it competetively. Team Fortress 2 for example, although it has a few problems here and there you can play as any of the classes and be useful and have fun. Compare that to ME3 where certain classes are made redundant if others are present.

Modifié par TeaL3af, 27 février 2012 - 06:07 .

[Ludica]

ejmcdonald wrote...

you unlock other classes through out the game the great thing about a co-op game is you can have another race more powerful (as its a later unlock) you cannot do that in a competative game because otherwise the people with the better unlocks would own everyone without therefore they are overpowered. The only exception to this rule is the drell vangaurd that I have seen is not as good as the human.

Could you imagine a Krogan sentinal an asari vangaurd and a quarian engineer OH NO THEY ARE OP NERF THEM. 

It is like turning PVP on as a LVL 1 human on WoW and getting killed by a lvl 70 orc and moaning it is OP

There are several flaws in your reasoning.

Firstly, the nature of unlocks as random, and in no way shows skill=advantage, as it should be. 

Secondly, even one exception kills the rule when the game is suppoused to be centered around it(as you assume). Human Vanguard is much better than the other Vanguards. It's a solid skillset that knows exactly what it is and doesn't bother with grenade/stasis that other vanguards posess. And yet asari Vanguard, while being inferior to a human, is still considered a valuable unlock in the game's eyes.

If you want a WoW analogy, fine. Think of Paladins at some point, before a patch made them good tanks. Kicked out of the group simply for being inferior to everybody else.

Modifié par Ludica, 27 février 2012 - 06:04 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

TexasToast712 wrote...

TeaL3af wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

A gun that shoots rockets at a ridiculous rate of fire and kills everything it hits would be overpowered in a CooP only game. A hand cannon that packs a hell of a punch as intended is not. Even though some idiots think so.

It is when it is just better than all the other heavier weapons. All the ARs and SMGs are just worse than the heavy pistols. The single shot snipers are about on par with them and the shotguns are only better in that they can stagger, they actually do about the same damage.

AR's and Shotguns get better mods in full game that give them better advantages.

What mods can they get, I would like to know! I can rock my Claymore now, but if it will be better I'm excited!

[ejmcdonald]

Ludica wrote...

There are several flaws in your reasoning.

Firstly, the nature of unlocks as random, and in no way shows skill=advantage, as it should be. 

Secondly, even one exception kills the rule when the game is suppoused to be centered around it(as you assume). Human Vanguard is much better than the other Vanguards. It's a solid skillset that knows exactly what it is and doesn't bother with grenade/stasis that other vanguards posess. And yet asari Vanguard, while being inferior to a human, is still considered a valuable unlock in the game's eyes.

If you want a WoW analogy, fine. Think of Paladins at some point, before a patch made them good tanks. Kicked out of the group simply for being inferior to everybody else.

Unlocks maybe random but they are still later unlocks you do not want to unlock a later class for it to be worse then the one you had makes no sense really does it?

An exception to the rule does not make the rule invalid basic I before E except after C proves this.

In a Co-op game especially ME3 to do the gold runs you need these OP classes to beat it what would you rather do? remove stasis, nova and cloack? **** it lets all run around with sticks and say bang at the enemy

[Lycidas]

TeaL3af wrote...

Lycidas wrote...

Some people just know out of experience that this "balance" discussion will never end. Things might get nerfed others buffed just so people can start the same wining again with a new target. At the end the tings are going to be more messed up than they were at the beginning or every class just plays like a copy of the next one. It happened before and it will happen again.

True, some people will never shut up. But the game can get to a state where most people don't worry too much about balance unless they are playing it competetively. Team Fortress 2 for example, although it has a few problems here and there you can play as any of the classes and be useful and have fun. Compare that to ME3 where certain classes are made redundant if others are present.

Your observation of redundant classes is based on a demo that features 2 maps and one type of enemy with a very limited selection of unlocks. This whole discussion would have some foundation if we actually knew what is yet to come but we don't. So IMHO people are acting a bit hysteric at the moment.

[TexasToast712]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

TeaL3af wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

A gun that shoots rockets at a ridiculous rate of fire and kills everything it hits would be overpowered in a CooP only game. A hand cannon that packs a hell of a punch as intended is not. Even though some idiots think so.

It is when it is just better than all the other heavier weapons. All the ARs and SMGs are just worse than the heavy pistols. The single shot snipers are about on par with them and the shotguns are only better in that they can stagger, they actually do about the same damage.

AR's and Shotguns get better mods in full game that give them better advantages.

What mods can they get, I would like to know! I can rock my Claymore now, but if it will be better I'm excited!

Pierce mod and ammo mod for Shotties and Pierce and heavy barrel mod for rifles. A Claymore that shoots through people? Yes please.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 27 février 2012 - 06:16 .

[TeaL3af]

ejmcdonald wrote...

Unlocks maybe random but they are still later unlocks you do not want to unlock a later class for it to be worse then the one you had makes no sense really does it?

 

I'd rather they be equally powerful.

 
An exception to the rule does not make the rule invalid basic I before E except after C proves this.

 

I before E except after C is actually an invalid rule. I'm not sure exactly what you are on about with this though.

In a Co-op game especially ME3 to do the gold runs you need these OP classes to beat it what would you rather do? remove stasis, nova and cloack? **** it lets all run around with sticks and say bang at the enemy

No, you make the other classes better so they can compete, obviously...

[Ludica]

ejmcdonald wrote...

Unlocks maybe random but they are still later unlocks you do not want to unlock a later class for it to be worse then the one you had makes no sense really does it?

An exception to the rule does not make the rule invalid basic I before E except after C proves this.

In a Co-op game especially ME3 to do the gold runs you need these OP classes to beat it what would you rather do? remove stasis, nova and cloack? **** it lets all run around with sticks and say bang at the enemy

Except it happens all the time. Hell, you can luck out said asari adept(i'm so beating her to death in this argument, yay me)in a starter pack. Your "it's suppoused to be a reward for effort" theory just doesn't cut it.

Even if we assume your rule is correct, it's still broken by random pack system and humans actually better than somebody. Either way, unbalance exists.

No, let me drive my own Reaper. A gigantic Yang Reaper or something. Or better yet, don't go to extremes and realise reasonable balancing is possible.

[TeaL3af]

Lycidas wrote...

TeaL3af wrote...

Lycidas wrote...

Some people just know out of experience that this "balance" discussion will never end. Things might get nerfed others buffed just so people can start the same wining again with a new target. At the end the tings are going to be more messed up than they were at the beginning or every class just plays like a copy of the next one. It happened before and it will happen again.

True, some people will never shut up. But the game can get to a state where most people don't worry too much about balance unless they are playing it competetively. Team Fortress 2 for example, although it has a few problems here and there you can play as any of the classes and be useful and have fun. Compare that to ME3 where certain classes are made redundant if others are present.

Your observation of redundant classes is based on a demo that features 2 maps and one type of enemy with a very limited selection of unlocks. This whole discussion would have some foundation if we actually knew what is yet to come but we don't. So IMHO people are acting a bit hysteric at the moment.

Surely one of the reasons for releasing a multiplayer demo is to gather feedback. I don't see how us providing our opinions on the unfinished product could actually hurt the final game. Why even bother coming to these forums pre-release otherwise?