980 réponses à ce sujet

[chiliztri]

Just posting these to give some different angles of FemShep. To me, it seems to depend on the angle and/or lighting. Sometimes she looks more petite than in others, also depending on the lighting it can really accentuate her ribcage. ~shrugs~

[the_one_54321]

android654 wrote...
I've been practicing Muay Thai for almost three years now, and I can tell you muscle definition is a must if you intend to punch or kick anyone with proper form or force. Mass slows you down, but definition is important. In order to through a proper jab you have to incorporate your heel, calv, quad, hip, oblique, abdomen, shoulder and chest. Using all of though muscle groups to do one thing properly meand there has to be an absence of fat and a strength that only comes with definition. Despite populare belief, mass does not equal strength, but defintion does.

BINGO!

[AdmiralCheez]

incinerator950 wrote...

Are you cute Cheez?

OH I AM MOST DEFINITELY A SEX GODDESS:



PROBLEM, BSN?

[Dionkey]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People are a diverse collection of different genetics and body types. check out this pictorial (warning: athletes in underwear) featuring the body types of many different athletes. You will see that even among those in the same field of athletics, there is a variety of body shapes and sizes.

Sure, every person has their own stereotypes of what a soldier "should" look like, based on historical depictions of soldiers in media, their own experiences, and what have you. But as the linked pictorial shows, people do come in all shapes and sizes, and perhaps we as a media culture should start accepting that different body shapes can still represent strength.

Stan, I don't think you know how fitness works. I've been weightlifting for a while now, and I know for a fact that Shepard's model is skin and bone. The ones pictured in your link are actually muscular, and the cloest to being as thin as Shep is the gymnists, which Shepard clearly isn't. Female infrantrymen should be under a strict workout routine.

[AlexXIV]

chengthao wrote...

Carfax wrote...

chengthao wrote...

exactly . . . i wiegh 140 lbs and can take down a 300 lbs Marine, i can easily drag a 300+ lbs Marine plus all his equipment

being strong doesn't mean you have to be buff . . . i'm cut but my muscles aren't enormous

Such B.S.. 

its all about technique, why do you think we learn hand-to-hand techniques instead of just lift wieghts if all that matters is muscle and mass

Because both is imporant. That's why they do both. They learn their techniques and they go to the gym. Ask anyone who is doing combat sports on more than a hobby basis. Even half-proffessionals will tell you that you need both. I have done martial arts in my youth and even I know that a proper muscle training is important for a proper technique. Unless you are using you 'chi' powers like the shaolin monks. Which I honestly think is sort of a hoax because if you watch them train you can easily see how they do their sit-ups and everything you do to build a proper muscle.

[chengthao]

BrotherWarth wrote...

chengthao wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

chengthao wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

If you had read my earlier post you would have seen that I did serve. I was Air Force for 6 years and served on Army and Naval bases. I was in combat areas as well, so I've seen a wide array of servicemen and women. No petite, barely-muscled women were ever carrying full gear in the dense, humid heat of Iraq I can assure you.

well lets see . . . my gf is a 100 lbs and 5' 2" serving as a Navy Corpsman . . . oh and she's been out in the field and combat carrying 90+lbs of medical equipment . . . hmmm . . . let's see, i had a female shipmate who wieghed like 90 lbs carrying her own weight and went out into the field to medavac some wounded Marines

so i'm not sure where you serve but there are women all in the military who are very light/small and can still carry their own equipment

No field medics carry 90+ pounds of medical equipment. And unless your shipmate was 4'10"(the minimum height to enlist) she didn't weight 90 pounds since that's too light to enlist and remain in.
You're making gross exaggerations to support your claims, but no matter how you slice it no woman built like FemShep in ME3 could do the things she does.

90 lbs of medical equipment along with her rifle, ammo, armor, etc, etc, you still have to carry all that into the field even if your just medavacing Marines (unless your in a helo, which she wasn't)

and yes my shipmate was under 5' (not sure her exact hieght) and she weighed under 100 lbs (so like 95-96)

the point is, women like FemShep do exist in the real military and they are capable of doing the jobs of all their male counterparts

First, we're talking about FemShep doing all the things that the burly, buff Sheploo can do. No woman built like FemShep or your supposed friends could ever do that. Second, I say supposed because your gross exaggerations and backpedaling make me think you're lying about all of this.

"backpedaling" . . . what am i "backpedaling" on? i'm just elaborating on your suspicions

[AlexXIV]

chiliztri wrote...

Just posting these to give some different angles of FemShep. To me, it seems to depend on the angle and/or lighting. Sometimes she looks more petite than in others, also depending on the lighting it can really accentuate her ribcage. ~shrugs~

Tbh ... she doesn't look unathletic (except her arms). But not like she could knock out a krogan either.

[AdmiralCheez]

@chiliztri: Her legs and stomach are actually okay (thus my rage is soothed), but GOOD LORD NOODLE ARMS WHAT.

[corporal doody]

Those thighs!

[the_one_54321]

Carfax wrote...
So who's going to punch harder and lift more weight

And this is a perfect illustration of why you don't actually know much about this.

"Harder" and "more" are typical but mostly unrelated concepts. It's about the how. Effective hitting lies in how you hit, not how hard you hit.

[Deviija]

Still absolutely no tone in her arms and shoulders. If Shep can deadlift Kaid/Ash in ME1, while wearing armor and weapons, then she needs to have some definition and tone at least.

[Unpleasant Implications]

[quote]zestyshade wrote...

[quote]the_one_54321 wrote...

[quote]incinerator950 wrote...
The problem is that 99% of the women we see in videogames (and pretty much all entertainment) are skinny and hot, while the actual percentage of women who look like that is much, much lower.[/quote]
At this point my honest response to this complaint is "so what?" This is entertainment and sex/sexy is entertaining. I have no qualms with wanting fairness, but plain and simple I want the women in my games to be very attractive. If other folks want the men in games to be adequate sex objects as well, hell that's fine with me.

[/quote]
What about neither being a sex object? Can we just focus on the story at hand? Why does something need to be sexualized? Is it necessary that you ultimately see your character as somebody to drool over?[/qupte]
Sex sells to a rather large margin and can be a deciding factor in a purchase.

[quote]
Additionally, you will never see a situation where a man is sexualized and a woman is not, so the point of sexism stands.
[/quote]
Women being sexualized has been a part of human culture for centuries. Men being sexualized is only used when necessary as... well... there are a majority of societal reason that sharing on an internet forum will get me jumped and called a mysoginist.

[KBomb]

chiliztri wrote...

Just posting these to give some different angles of FemShep. To me, it seems to depend on the angle and/or lighting. Sometimes she looks more petite than in others, also depending on the lighting it can really accentuate her ribcage. ~shrugs~


*snip*

 
Wow, you're right. She doesn't look so bad here. Also, the paleness may make it look weird. I'd say she isn't that different from the femshep in ME1 and ME2.

[android654]

Capeo wrote...
They also didn't make Drake look like he bench 400lbs like BW did with Sheploo in this game.  If you're going that route with him they could have certainly given FemShep a more athletic build. 

I liked that they made and kept Drake looking like an average guy, since that is a big part of his charm. The thing with Jane is that she and John are the same person, simply male and female representations but the character is the same. If they were going to make Jane look like that, they should have kept the sedentary look he had in ME2.

[AdmiralCheez]

the_one_54321 wrote...

And this is a perfect illustration of why you don't actually know much about this.

"Harder" and "more" are typical but mostly unrelated concepts. It's about the how. Effective hitting lies in how you hit, not how hard you hit.

Okay, let's assume for a sec that two individuals are just as skilled and can move just as quickly.

So when everything else is equal, we still have F = ma.

[zestyshade]

the_one_54321 wrote...

zestyshade wrote...
What about neither being a sex object?

No thank you. I like sex and am not ashamed of it.

zestyshade wrote...
Additionally, you will never see a situation where a man is sexualized and a woman is not, so the point of sexism stands.

This is a much larger issue than just video games. My advice is to demand male sex objects. Or whatever your specific perference is therein.

Really, I am sorry that more developers are not paying more attention to equality. But I am not sorry that the things I enjoy are being included in games.

There is nothing wrong with sex.
I am arguing against sexualization of characters, which ultimately detracts from their value as personalities and puts undue focus on their sexual characteristics. This is not an argument against sex and one should not view it as such.

In a good story there should be a point to everything. Is there a point to a sexy scantily-clad Shepard? Mind, this is a military woman who is most likely into action and things not traditionally considered "girly". Hell, you can make her a borderline psychopath by playing straight Renegade and even beating down Wrex for disagreeing with you.

There is no reason for her to be presented in a sexy dress apart for one of pleasing the viewers. She is turned from a hero, a leader, to a pretty face with a pair of bouncy bits and a nice round rump.

In fact, almost every female in Mass Effect happens along the same path. Take Ashley in ME1 - she has an epic wedgy that accentuates her butt-crack and general undercarriage, while men have no such thing on their armor. There is no way that is comfortable. The boob-armor makes very little sense as well and serves only to remind us that this is a woman and for male viewers to fawn over the bouncy bits accentuated by this armor.

[Carfax]

android654 wrote...

Despite populare belief, mass does not equal strength, but defintion does.

Where do you guys get this unscientific nonsense from? 

Strength is the amount of force your muscles can exert.   Muscle size is a huge factor in strength, because the larger a muscle is, the more muscle fibers it has to exert force.

Striking relies on more than just raw strength however, ie technique, weight etc...

[Giant ambush beetle]

chengthao wrote...

its all about technique, why do you think we learn hand-to-hand techniques instead of just lift wieghts if all that matters is muscle and mass

Pure muscle without control and proper technique is nothing, thats true, but what if you encounter an enemy who's good at hand to hand techniques AND is strong too? Like pretty much all trained Spec Ops? You are screwed.

And thats horribly unprofessional for an N7. Why have top notch weaponry, high end armor and the latest gadgets but have an underdeveloped scrawny body? Makes no sense.

And by the way, if it were all about the technique why are K1 martial arts fighters buff? Because even the best technique is nothing without power behind it.

Modifié par The Woldan , 27 février 2012 - 09:29 .

[Ziggeh]

I think there's a fundimental flaw to many of the points made in the debate: Shepard is not a person. She's a representation of a person. People use the word "stereotype" as if it's inherently bad, when in actual fact it's an important social and narrative tool. Stereotypes can say more in a shorter space of time than unique characters because they gain depth through association.

To those pointing out that many women in the military are indeed skinny, or that cybernetics account for her relative strength, you're rather missing the point. Her bodyshape does not represent her apparent strength. Yes, it can be explained away, but it shouldn't have to be. It's a relationship we all draw in our head, and like the sound that silencers actually make, the truth is irrelevant to the fiction. She was a designed character and this probably should have been considered.

To those saying she's too skinny: Yes, she probably is. But that doesn't make it purely about being the object of sexual gaze. She's based on the male structural skeleton and has largely masculine mannerisms. In creating a character who is strong yet essentially feminine, as they have done, it's likely that a certain amount of exaggeration in the opposite direction was, if not actually necessary, then at least useful.

Which isn't to say the gaze is unimportant, but again, she is intended to represent something sexual rather than actually be. Miranda's unnatural buttocks are exhibit A and B. But I think asking artists to forgo the useful tools such exaggeration affords in favour of a cultural responsibility to womens self image is a bit unfair. Especially when you're talking about one of the strongest (figuratively) female characters in popular culture.

[Carfax]

the_one_54321 wrote...

And this is a perfect illustration of why you don't actually know much about this.

"Harder" and "more" are typical but mostly unrelated concepts. It's about the how. Effective hitting lies in how you hit, not how hard you hit.

Nice dodge!

[PrinceLionheart]

chiliztri wrote...

Just posting these to give some different angles of FemShep. To me, it seems to depend on the angle and/or lighting. Sometimes she looks more petite than in others, also depending on the lighting it can really accentuate her ribcage. ~shrugs~

Only thing I really get out of those pics is that FemShep has really skinny arms. Odd design choice but nothing to to make a big deal about.

[the_one_54321]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
And this is a perfect illustration of why you don't actually know much about this.

"Harder" and "more" are typical but mostly unrelated concepts. It's about the how. Effective hitting lies in how you hit, not how hard you hit.

Okay, let's assume for a sec that two individuals are just as skilled and can move just as quickly.

So when everything else is equal, we still have F = ma.

Sure. But video game art and models are hardly in a position to emulate a perfect balance situation.

I think they need to fix her arms. I don't think "give her more muscles" is at all the big fix that will take care of that.