980 réponses à ce sujet

[chengthao]

BrotherWarth wrote...

chengthao wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

chengthao wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

The Woldan wrote...
Female soldiers that can do all of the above won't have the body of a ballet dancer, or a body that looks like FemSheps.
Simple physics, the stronger you are the bigger your muscles are, there is no magical super lean muscles, its pretty simple.

You're just flat out incorrect here. Those physical feats are about proper technique, not muscle mass. Small people can hit very "hard" if they know the right way to hit. Large muscles have only a small and very specific benefit in these kinds of activities.

exactly . . . i wiegh 140 lbs and can take down a 300 lbs Marine, i can easily drag a 300+ lbs Marine plus all his equipment

being strong doesn't mean you have to be buff . . . i'm cut but my muscles aren't enormous

300 pound marines? Taking them down and dragging them around? First off, when and why did you EVER "take down" a 300 pound marine? And second, where the hell did you ever see 300 pound marines? That's 25 pounds more than the maximum weight allowable for the tallest of marines. So unless you serve with droves of 6'8" marines who have avoided weight checks, you're exaggerating to an EXTREME degree.

there are 300 lbs Marines . . . theres a weight limit but body fat is also taken into account, anyone weighing over their wieght limit can still enlist and serve if they have low body fat, muscle weighs more than fat

Yes, but what men with very low bofy fat weight 300 pounds? Body builders, maybe if they're 6'6". You're a serial exaggerator at best, a liar at worst.

ummm . . . there are Marines who lift weights, there are Marines who are tall, there are Marines who are both

i have never said that this was the norm or that every Marine is like this, i just said they exist, to say such a thing can't possibly exist is just ignorant

Modifié par chengthao, 27 février 2012 - 09:34 .

[darthnick427]

yeah her noodle arms are kind of ridiculous. everything else is good tho

[Jynthor]

What I think when I see the new FemShep model.

[JBONE27]

Could we see a comparison since I don't remember Shepard in her undies?

[the_one_54321]

Carfax wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
And this is a perfect illustration of why you don't actually know much about this.

"Harder" and "more" are typical but mostly unrelated concepts. It's about the how. Effective hitting lies in how you hit, not how hard you hit.

Nice dodge!

Dodge nothing. You don't know what goes into an effective punch. Having big muscles isn't whereit comes from. Read the muay thai post above. He describes the proper body positioning and motion transition that goes into a proper punch. The damage comes mostly from the motion in your legs, not your arms.

[AlexXIV]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Are you cute Cheez?

OH I AM MOST DEFINITELY A SEX GODDESS:



PROBLEM, BSN?

You did not just post a rl pic of you, did you?

If you did, big mistake. Nothing good ever comes from this kind of things. And I wouldn't know why BSN would be better than all the other terrible places in the internet.

[chengthao]

The Woldan wrote...

chengthao wrote...

its all about technique, why do you think we learn hand-to-hand techniques instead of just lift wieghts if all that matters is muscle and mass

Pure muscle without control and proper technique is nothing, thats true, but what if you encounter an enemy who's good at hand to hand techniques AND is strong too? Like pretty much all trained Spec Ops? You are screwed.

And thats horribly unprofessional for an N7. Why have top notch weaponry, high end armor and the latest gadgets but have an underdeveloped scrawny body? Makes no sense.

And by the way, if it were all about the technique why are K1 martial arts fighters buff? Because even the best technique is nothing without power behind it.

i didn't say muscle doesn't matter, i said that we don't just only lift wieght

[android654]

Carfax wrote...

android654 wrote...

Despite populare belief, mass does not equal strength, but defintion does.

Where do you guys get this unscientific nonsense from? 

Strength is the amount of force your muscles can exert.   Muscle size is a huge factor in strength, because the larger a muscle is, the more muscle fibers it has to exert force.

Striking relies on more than just raw strength however, ie technique, weight etc...

Read the rest of what I wrote. It was in reference to fighting. Strength in a jab or a Pecking kick does not come from mass, but definition. You can't kick me in the chest if your quad is 40'' and you weigh 400 even if you bf% is in single digits. Even if you manage to get your foot all the way up there, you're concentrating your muscle tissue to keep balance that you can't extend your leg.

KBomb wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

She doesn't need to look like the Hulk. She-Hulk would do.

Also, what does 'she is genetically modified' mean. Does it say somewhere that she doesn't need to work out anymore? Far as I know she is just genetically optimized. Which means she is the best a human can be. Which is probably not much better than before. Because she was the best already before her resurrection.

Ew no.

Umm.. Yes she should

[Carfax]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The damage comes mostly from the motion in your legs, not your arms.

*face palms*

And what produces the motion pray tell? 

[chiliztri]

JBONE27 wrote...

Could we see a comparison since I don't remember Shepard in her undies?

One page back my dear. I just posted a few screenshots from my game of her.

[AdmiralCheez]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Sure. But video game art and models are hardly in a position to emulate a perfect balance situation.

They can at least, you know, try.

I think they need to fix her arms. I don't think "give her more muscles" is at all the big fix that will take care of that.

Broader shoulders + slightly more toned arms = "give her more muscles"/"fix her arms"

[chengthao]

BrotherWarth wrote...

chengthao wrote...
"backpedaling" . . . what am i "backpedaling" on? i'm just elaborating on your suspicions

Your friend did weight 90 pounds, now she weighs closer to 100. Your friend did carry 90+ pounds of medical equipment. Now she may have carried 90 pounds of equipment TOTAL.
You're very clearly exaggerating more than lot.

no i elaborated on your suspicions, had i "changed" what i said than you would have a point but i didn't

[AlexXIV]

She definately looks like a runner or jumper. Anything you don't really need alot of strenght in your arms. Though in proportion to her body the arms look about right tbh. Not 'too thin' from an estethical point of view at least. I guess I can deal with it.

[AdmiralCheez]

AlexXIV wrote...

You did not just post a rl pic of you, did you?

If you did, big mistake. Nothing good ever comes from this kind of things. And I wouldn't know why BSN would be better than all the other terrible places in the internet.

I've posted, like, three RL pics of myself in the past.  Nothing ill has come of it so far.

Besides, RL trollface/self-satire = worth it.

[DiebytheSword]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Its probably been pointed out, but I'll say it again.

Should Fem Shep be better built? Yes, she probably should.

That aside, being thin does not make her invalid as a combatant. My Tae Kwon Do teacher was maybe 105lbs soaking wet, and I'm fairly sure she could incpacitate if not out right kill most of the larger males posting in this thread.

Thin =/= benign, or incapable as a warrior.

Look.  I have no problem with actual, real-life, thin/petite women.

But FemShep IS NOT an actual, real-life, thin/petite woman.  She looks like that for one reason, and one reason only:

She had to be "hot."

And by "hot," I mean fitting into the narrow definition of unrealistic sex appeal I wangsted about in my previous post.

I agree to an extent, as I said in the post you quoted, she probably should be built up a little larger.

To that end, the perfect answer here would be for the player to be allowed to change Shepards body type completely, having a heavy, thin, built or lithe body type would be a lot of work for the modelers and people doing the rigging for animations (maybe) and even more work for QA, but it would stop people from being mad about it and leave sex appeal on the table for those who want it.  Broshep is also oversexualized, looking like he did push up and sit up competitions with Jacob for a Priiiiiiiiiize.

Not every soldier should look like Arnold and Stallone wrestling for control of the 80s.

Being fit does not always mean having hulking pectoral muscles that look like a beer can crusher in its relaxed state.

Again, my point is that choice would have been preferable to only one body type, but the one presented should be amongst them as a valid choice.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
The Kasumi dress didn't look like it was made out of latex.

And people who like black and shiny clothing should not have a nice dress for Shepard because . . . why?  Not everything should be taken as a reason for highlighting the cause, because you may inadvertantly step on others who have differing interests.

This goes back to my previous idea of celebration versus objectification.

I agree with you on heels for Miranda, Phantoms and Nemesi.  Pure rediculous for combat roles, but you are almost saying that Shepard can not celebrate her own body on her off time.

[Unpleasant Implications]

zestyshade wrote...

There is nothing wrong with sex.
I am arguing against sexualization of characters, which ultimately detracts from their value as personalities and puts undue focus on their sexual characteristics. This is not an argument against sex and one should not view it as such.

In a good story there should be a point to everything. Is there a point to a sexy scantily-clad Shepard?

Romance scenes?

Mind, this is a military woman who is most likely into action and things not traditionally considered "girly".

 Or not. I know plenty of "girly" military women.

Hell, you can make her a borderline psychopath by playing straight Renegade and even beating down Wrex for disagreeing with you.

What does sexy underwear have to do with being a psychopath? And beating down someone because they disagree with you isn't psychopathic behavior. If so, nearly every nations in the world's leaders are psychopaths.

There is no reason for her to be presented in a sexy dress apart for one of pleasing the viewers. She is turned from a hero, a leader, to a pretty face with a pair of bouncy bits and a nice round rump.

You make it sound like she jumps on stripper poles and blow Turians all day. Seriously, what's wrong with a woman wearing a pretty dress?

In fact, almost every female in Mass Effect happens along the same path. Take Ashley in ME1 -

Oh here we go... 

she has an epic wedgy that accentuates her butt-crack and general undercarriage, while men have no such thing on their armor. There is no way that is comfortable.

 Different people find different things comfortable. Example: S&M

The boob-armor makes very little sense as well and serves only to remind us that this is a woman and for male viewers to fawn over the bouncy bits accentuated by this armor.

Or to protect her boobs.

[Deviija]

Dionkey wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

People are a diverse collection of different genetics and body types. check out this pictorial (warning: athletes in underwear) featuring the body types of many different athletes. You will see that even among those in the same field of athletics, there is a variety of body shapes and sizes.

Sure, every person has their own stereotypes of what a soldier "should" look like, based on historical depictions of soldiers in media, their own experiences, and what have you. But as the linked pictorial shows, people do come in all shapes and sizes, and perhaps we as a media culture should start accepting that different body shapes can still represent strength.

Stan, I don't think you know how fitness works. I've been weightlifting for a while now, and I know for a fact that Shepard's model is skin and bone. The ones pictured in your link are actually muscular, and the cloest to being as thin as Shep is the gymnists, which Shepard clearly isn't. Female infrantrymen should be under a strict workout routine.

What Dionkey said, thank you.  I am super happy to see Woo post the athletic pictoral, though.  The more that gets around (especially to artists/designers), the better off we'll be for bodytypes and athleticism portrayal in games.  That said, it is missing the point entirely.  If DudeShepard and FemShepard are the same people, just gender-flipped, indicating they've both shared the same experience, training, and fitness as a soldier and sharing the same routine regimens, then FemShep *should* be looking more ripped.  Otherwise, DudeShep needs to be looking more skinny and lanky. 

The only other reason for these differences is that DudeShep is tapping into the power fantasy of male gamers, where muscles represent prowess and strength and capability.  And FemShep is also tapping into the power fantasy of male gamers, where being slender and soft in the curves is desirable and sexy to the male gaze.  Believe me, she's not in those buttcheek panties for ladies here.  I'd just like to see more emphasis on power fantasy for lady gamers utilized more often in this industry. 

[android654]

AlexXIV wrote...

She definately looks like a runner or jumper. Anything you don't really need alot of strenght in your arms. Though in proportion to her body the arms look about right tbh. Not 'too thin' from an estethical point of view at least. I guess I can deal with it.

Runners have highly defined bodies, its an effect of the exercise. Tracuers who prioritize in plyo (jumping) are just as if not more defined than distance runners. Jane is thin but lacks any muscle tone, even in her legs which are disproportionatlely large to the rest of her body.

[the_one_54321]

zestyshade wrote...
There is nothing wrong with sex.
I am arguing against sexualization of characters, which ultimately detracts from their value as personalities and puts undue focus on their sexual characteristics. This is not an argument against sex and one should not view it as such.

I disagree that the inclusion of sexuality detracts from value in personality. Just like in real life, I do not focus on looks above all other qualities but I do place value on looks. This is not unreasonable. The whole of a personality includes sexuality. And from game 1 the ME franchise has taken on sexuality as an aspect of the game.

(whether or not they have done so very well is, admittedly, very debatable)

zestyshade wrote...
In a good story there should be a point to everything. Is there a point to a sexy scantily-clad Shepard? Mind, this is a military woman who is most likely into action and things not traditionally considered "girly". Hell, you can make her a borderline psychopath by playing straight Renegade and even beating down Wrex for disagreeing with you.

There is no reason for her to be presented in a sexy dress apart for one of pleasing the viewers. She is turned from a hero, a leader, to a pretty face with a pair of bouncy bits and a nice round rump.

Again, I don't agree. In lots of good stories there can be things that maybe don't have a specific point in the narrative. I don't know why Shep is walking around in her underwear. That in itself seems really odd to me. But having a sexy figure registers pretty low on my something-is-wrong-meter.

zestyshade wrote...
In fact, almost every female in Mass Effect happens along the same path. Take Ashley in ME1 - she has an epic wedgy that accentuates her butt-crack and general undercarriage, while men have no such thing on their armor. There is no way that is comfortable. The boob-armor makes very little sense as well and serves only to remind us that this is a woman and for male viewers to fawn over the bouncy bits accentuated by this armor.

I don't think they should be changing any of the previously established characters. For me, sex has absolutely nothing to do with that. Just don't change what's already established.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 27 février 2012 - 09:42 .

[DiebytheSword]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Carfax wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
And this is a perfect illustration of why you don't actually know much about this.

"Harder" and "more" are typical but mostly unrelated concepts. It's about the how. Effective hitting lies in how you hit, not how hard you hit.

Nice dodge!

Dodge nothing. You don't know what goes into an effective punch. Having big muscles isn't whereit comes from. Read the muay thai post above. He describes the proper body positioning and motion transition that goes into a proper punch. The damage comes mostly from the motion in your legs, not your arms.

I competed at the national level in Tae Kwon Do, I agree with this 100%, the punch comes from the torso and leg as much (if not more so) as it does the arm.  Shepard's legs are capable of causing some damage, even through a punch; you'll note that her legs are quite well muscled.

[AlexXIV]

Carfax wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

The damage comes mostly from the motion in your legs, not your arms.

*face palms*

And what produces the motion pray tell? 

What he means if you punch you punch with your whole body, not just your arms. If a stronger person with big arms would not have a good techinque his punch would ultimately be weaker than from a person with less muscle but the proper technique in which he uses his whole body for the punch. Also at some point a person may have too many muscle. There is a sort of middle ground in which your punching is hardest and fastest. That's usually why boxers look the way they look and not more or less. Bodybuilders are dangerous if they get to 'hug' you but their muscles probably get in their way with the technique alot. Also they tire faster. I had a bodybuilder in my platoon and he was sort of a weak link tbh. Always hungry and thirsty and not really a good performance in most things that make a good soldier.

[KBomb]

android654 wrote...



Umm.. Yes she should

Again. Ew no.

[the_one_54321]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Broader shoulders + slightly more toned arms = "give her more muscles"/"fix her arms"

Actually, it's her elbows that look really weird to me. They don't seem to be bending like an elbow really would. It's very uncanny valley.

[chengthao]

BrotherWarth wrote...

chengthao wrote...

ummm . . . there are Marines who lift weights, the are Marines who are tall, there are Marines who are both

i have never said that this was the norm or that every Marine is like this, i just said they exist, to say such a thing can't possibly exist is just ignorant

But again, I have served all over. In combat zones and out, all over the world. I have never seen a 300 pound marine. I've seen marines who were 6'6", but none of them were even close to 300 pounds. I've seen marines built like Vega, but none of them were close to 300 pounds. And I've seen females in the service who were 5' tall and weighed around 100-105 pounds, but none of them could do what their male counterparts could. To say that a 95 pound, 5' tall woman could carry around full gear, including medical supplies in the humid, appaling heat of Iraq AND haul around Hulk-sized marines is completely ridiculous.

ah yes b/c you were responsible for weighing all those buff Marines

plus my shipmates had to be able to do it, since they both went to Field Med and thats part of the training for all FMF (qualified) Corpsman