230 réponses à ce sujet

[Mike 9987]

Another tali sweat thread?

[Cazlee]

nevar00 wrote...

Several problems, which may or may not have been addressed in the thread.

1. The Thorian was there for a very, very long time. Surely there would have been more than one around.

2. Which brings me to #2: it was using the spores to control the colonists, not to repopulate.

3. Which now brings me to #3: it's pretty ridiculous to compare an alien plant life to plants on Earth. There's no reason to assume it uses the same spores for both controlling and repopulating. In fact I would assume it wouldn't.

4. Had the Thorian wanted to spread itself it would have already done so, having been there for hundreds of thousands (?) of years and we know Protheans at the very least had been to Ferros.

5. The colonists were infected for some time and would have most likely already spread the spores.

6. Who's to say they weren't checked out for something like this? We know from ME 2 that they were getting medical attention from side effects from the Thorian anyway.

7. The Thorian was fairly had thousands and thousands of years to get to be as big and dangerous as it had gotten.

8. The Thorian is mentioned as being "unique": I took this as meaning it was the only known one of it's kind. And if there are numerous Thorians throughout the galaxy then it would seem most are relatively harmless/unnoticeable.

Interesting ideas but it still sounds like digging for excuses that aren't there.

I agree. #1 and #2 are why I don't think there's enough evidence. That being said, #5 is incorrect according to his diagram since the sporophyte would have to mature first before it can produce more spores.
We've seen a lot of thorium creepers in the area. I wouldn't be opposed to the theory that the colonists could be evolving into one of those.

[CrutchCricket]

bobobo878 wrote...
Again, I'm guessing that this is the only Thorian on any charted world that survived the reaper onslaught, and the colonization of Zhu's hope was the first time that it encountered suitable prey in thousands of years.  Ferros was dead when the colonists arrived, it's no wonder that the thorian had to hibernate to survive.

Again, I'm looking at all times. Why has no other thorian been discovered since the prothean extinction? Even a wee one barely a few centuries old?

Again, it is probably not the spores themselves that are controlling the colonists but the gametophyte type thorian organisms that the spores grew into.  As for carrying spores,  most complex plants have specifically differentiated organs used for reproduction.  The purpose of the creepers and clones is merely to act as tools for the thorian being able to produce spiores themselves would be redundant.  Human hands, for example, are made out of human flesh, but are still not covered with genitals.

Ok check this out:
Thorian infests organics to reproduce (according to your theory). The lifecycle of the spores doesn't really matter for this. This is the basics.
Thorian must therefore require organics to reproduce. Also since we're saying it can spread across all sorts of different planets it must be able to infest all manner of life which means it can and will infest lower life if sentients are unavailable (and probabilities favor non-sentient life here)
But- Thorian can create organics (creepers and clones). The clones are the more convincing since they can use biotics and weapons.
Therefore Thorian is no longer dependant on organics for parasitic reproduction beyond one "template" since it can create a close enough clone. Thus, opting for the more efficient solution (and given that the Thorian is somewhat sentient itself) the most logical, it needs only one organic to create endless clones containing reproductive spores which it can then send anywhere it wants.

All in all, there should be a lot more thorians around if those spores were used for reproduction. There is no evidence of such thus we can dismiss this claim. (air quotes optional)

[ObserverStatus]

nevar00 wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...
sorry OP
metagaming Paragon Pansies always win the day.
we don't want the children to feel bad for doing the purported "right thing" do we?

Yes because wiping out a colony based entirely on speculation and assumptions as well as meta-gaming is the
"right thing" to do.
....oh wait

As I said before, I would have preferred to have the planet quarantined by the galactic health organization until it can be assured that the colonists are not contagious, but the only options were setting them loose or wiping them out.  When a scary new disease is discovered in our time, we just start shooting of course, but we don't start flying all of the potentially contagious people all over the world either.

[ObserverStatus]

CrutchCricket wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
Again, I'm guessing that this is the only Thorian on any charted world that survived the reaper onslaught, and the colonization of Zhu's hope was the first time that it encountered suitable prey in thousands of years.  Ferros was dead when the colonists arrived, it's no wonder that the thorian had to hibernate to survive.

Again, I'm looking at all times. Why has no other thorian been discovered since the prothean extinction? Even a wee one barely a few centuries old?

Every 50,000 years the Reapers wipe out all intelligent organic life.  The Thorians are intelligent organic life.  I think the one we found on Ferros is dan lucky to be alive.

CrutchCricket wrote...

Again, it is probably not the spores themselves that are controlling the colonists but the gametophyte type thorian organisms that the spores grew into.  As for carrying spores,  most complex plants have specifically differentiated organs used for reproduction.  The purpose of the creepers and clones is merely to act as tools for the thorian being able to produce spiores themselves would be redundant.  Human hands, for example, are made out of human flesh, but are still not covered with genitals.

Ok check this out:
Thorian infests organics to reproduce (according to your theory). The lifecycle of the spores doesn't really matter for this. This is the basics.
Thorian must therefore require organics to reproduce. Also since we're saying it can spread across all sorts of different planets it must be able to infest all manner of life which means it can and will infest lower life if sentients are unavailable (and probabilities favor non-sentient life here)

Not necessarily, the Thorian might be hard pressed to survive inside the body of reverse chilarity organisms like Quarians and Turians, or amonia based organisms like Volus.  They might not even be able to control Varren or Krogan, they have a secondary circulatory system fileld with conductive fluids in place of nerves.  I never said that they could infest organisms from ANY world, I just said that it worked on humans and protheans.

CrutchCricket wrote...
But- Thorian can create organics (creepers and clones). The clones are the more convincing since they can use biotics and weapons.
Therefore Thorian is no longer dependant on organics for parasitic reproduction beyond one "template" since it can create a close enough clone. Thus, opting for the more efficient solution (and given that the Thorian is somewhat sentient itself) the most logical, it needs only one organic to create endless clones containing reproductive spores which it can then send anywhere it wants.

Sure, it would be efficient for the thorian if the clones could produce spores but they can't.  There are plenty of improvements that could be made to the human body as well, but evolution rarely creates a perfect organism. 

[WarGriffin]

bobobo878 wrote...

 Many debates regarding the morality of certain decisions in the Mass Effect series have come up on these forums in anticipation of the release of the third installment of the game.  However, while decisions such as whether it will be better to side with Quarians and Geth in their upcoming war, or whether or not to spare the Rachni from extinction, the issue of how to deal with the Throian infestation on Zhu’s hope has largely been ignored.  While some would argue that this is because sparing Shiala and the colonists is obviously the right thing to do, I would argue that you are morally obliged to do otherwise.  By sanitizing the colony, not only are you sparing the colonists from a fate worse than death, but you may be saving the galaxy as well.

I have come to suspect that the spores that the colonists have been infected with are capable of growing into completely new Thorians.  While there are no Thorians on Earth, there are plants here, so predictions can be drawn by studying the Thorian’s closest terrestrial relatives. Unless the Thorian transports water through its body in a way completely unlike terrestrial plants, it is far too large to be a nonvascular plant.  Also, its lack of flowering or conelike bodies seems to show that it may be a seedless plant.  For reference, I have inserted a chart showing the lifecycle of vascular seedless plants.



By compiling what we know about the Thorian and seedless vascular plants on earth, I have come up with this theory on how the Thorian’s lifecycle works,

1.       Thorian infects new hosts with spores.

2.       Spores grow into gametophyte stage, capable of interfacing with host’s nervous system and are attuned to the psychic emanations of the Thorian.  This is the mechanism by which the Thorian can control human minions.

3.       Female parts of Gametophytes produce eggs, male parts produce sperm.

4.       Gametophyte produces zygotes from eggs and sperm.

5.       If the gametophyte ceases to receive psychic emanation from the Thorian for any reason, the zygote will grow into a sporophyte; a fetal Thorian, which will then seize control of its host through the vestiges of its gametophyte stage and seek out a safe place to grow.

6.       When the sporophyte stage matures into the form seen in Mass Effect  1, it will begin to produce spores, beginning the life cycle again.

So by completely cauterizing the colony, not only are you sparing the colonists the horror of being eaten alive by the embryonic Thorians, but you are also preventing the Thorians from completing their lifecycle and using the colonists to spread to other worlds. As with the Rachni decision, I am not completely happy with the options available to Commander Shepard in this scenario.  In the case of the Rachni, I would have preferred to transfer the queen to the custody of the council so that they can repopulate under the supervision of the galactic authorities if that is what they decide to be best.  In this case, I would have preferred to quarantine the colonists to Ferros until it is determined if the Thorian gametophytes that were controlling their bodies can safely be removed, but tragically the only options available to Shepard are killing them, or unleashing them on the galaxy.  While I took no pleasure in killing them, I did not want to allow the chance that the same tragedy could be repeated on other worlds. While it is possible that the gametophytes could be surgically removed, it is likely that the plants structures are so intricately intertwined with their hosts’ nervous systems that they cannot be removed without killing the host.

It is sad, but scientific evidence show us that Shiala and the colonists on Zhu’s hope must be killed for their own sakes as much as for the sake of the people they would otherwise infect.

... Ummm problem with your plan there... You and the crew have been breathing in the spores since you landed

[Kilshrek]

The problem is that we know next to nothing about the life cycle of the Thorian. This is speculation based on Earth based plants, and in a universe where there's a species of blue skinned females that have tentacles on their heads do we really want to assume that a plant older than the Protheans reproduces in such a... mundane manner?

And for the most part plants use other organisms as tools for propagation by pollination. It simply does not make sense for a plant to wait for the right hosts to come along and propagate, and a sentient plant at that. Why wait for something when you can initiate it at will and in a controlled manner?

No, the colonists current plight is likely to be a side effect of psychic control and the conditions on Feros, as opposed to the emergence of many "mini" Thorians.

[Kuriiiiiii]

 While I appreciate the work fans put into fan fic, this is pretty OTT

While cool, I don't think Bioware have that deep of a plot

[ObserverStatus]

The Minority wrote...
You really need to find new things to do with your time.

I'm just trying to help other gamers enjoy mass effect as much as possible, seems to me like as good of a way to spend my time as anything else that ever gets done around here.

[incinerator950]

bobobo878 wrote...

The Minority wrote...
You really need to find new things to do with your time.

I'm just trying to help other gamers enjoy mass effect as much as possible, seems to me like as good of a way to spend my time as anything else that ever gets done around here.

Bug Man suggests getting beer with your ramen.

[crimzontearz]

there is a huge hole in your theory op...

[Homebound]

bobobo878 wrote...

The Minority wrote...
You really need to find new things to do with your time.

I'm just trying to help other gamers enjoy mass effect as much as possible, seems to me like as good of a way to spend my time as anything else that ever gets done around here.

I like how you have a diagram. Most arguements dont have diagrams. diagrams help I think.

keep up the good work bo.

[ObserverStatus]

WarGriffin wrote...
... Ummm problem with your plan there... You and the crew have been breathing in the spores since you landed

Only Shepard's ground team was exposed to the spores, the rest of them being inside the airlocked Normandy the entire time.  Members of Exogeni have visited Zhu's hope without being infected, so it is likely that the spores will only germinate upon prolonged exposure.  I don't know why this is, but perhaps only one in a vast number of spores is capable of bypassing the host's immune system.  Increased exposure results in increased risk of infection with any pathogen.  Even if Shepard's ground team was infected, that wouldn't leave a lot of loose ends to tie up.  Garrus Tali and Wrex are probably immune, Kaiden and Ashley are constantly being monitored by the Alliance, and will most likely not be allowed tojust run off and grow into new Thorians, and if there was a Thorian inside of Shepard, it died with him when the collectors got him.  Liara really is the only one of them with any chance of having a Thorian growing out of their body, but she hasn't shoeed any symptoms yet so she probably just wasn't exposed to the same extent as the colonists.

[DJBare]

bobobo878 wrote...I wrote this thread so that you can all start new playthroughs in which this will not come to pass and be happy.

Well thanks mum, but is it ok if I actually stick with and take responsibility for my own actions?

[ObserverStatus]

DJBare wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...I wrote this thread so that you can all start new playthroughs in which this will not come to pass and be happy.

Well thanks mum, but is it ok if I actually stick with and take responsibility for my own actions?

Sounds good to me.  I didn't say you HAD to follow my instructions, I just said it was necessary for getting the best possible ending.  I have a file where only Morinth and Kasumi survived the suicide mission just because I wasnt to see what happens.

Modifié par bobobo878, 28 février 2012 - 12:00 .

[Aimi]

bobobo878 wrote...

WarGriffin wrote...
... Ummm problem with your plan there... You and the crew have been breathing in the spores since you landed

Only Shepard's ground team was exposed to the spores, the rest of them being inside the airlocked Normandy the entire time.  Members of Exogeni have visited Zhu's hope without being infected, so it is likely that the spores will only germinate upon prolonged exposure.  I don't know why this is, but perhaps only one in a vast number of spores is capable of bypassing the host's immune system.  Increased exposure results in increased risk of infection with any pathogen.  Even if Shepard's ground team was infected, that wouldn't leave a lot of loose ends to tie up.  Garrus Tali and Wrex are probably immune, Kaiden and Ashley are constantly being monitored by the Alliance, and will most likely not be allowed tojust run off and grow into new Thorians, and if there was a Thorian inside of Shepard, it died with him when the collectors got him.  Liara really is the only one of them with any chance of having a Thorian growing out of their body, but she hasn't shoeed any symptoms yet so she probably just wasn't exposed to the same extent as the colonists.

Ah, epicycles.

[Olej z Maku]

Fact there is some sort of reproductive cycle does not imply that organism has to follow it. Organism may evolve different way to reproduce and repurpose the old way, in case of Thorian to control people.

[ObserverStatus]

Olej z Maku wrote...

Fact there is some sort of reproductive cycle does not imply that organism has to follow it. Organism may evolve different way to reproduce and repurpose the old way, in case of Thorian to control people.

Thorians and Drell didn't have to evolve to look just like humans either, but they did anyway.  Convergent evolution is a common theme in this series.

[Olej z Maku]

bobobo878 wrote...

Thorians and Drell didn't have to evolve to look just like humans either, but they did anyway.  Convergent evolution is a common theme in this series.

True, but what does that have to do with my argument that spores don't have to grow into new Thorians?

[Homebound]

could the thorians evolve into humanoids?

[DJBare]

Hellbound555 wrote...

could the thorians evolve into humanoids?

Shiala might be a hint toward's it, I had my suspicions after seeing her on Ilium, but even that suspicion would not be enough for my paragon to consider wiping out a colony.

[Unpleasant Implications]

Bloody hell...

[ObserverStatus]

Hellbound555 wrote...

could the thorians evolve into humanoids?

Not that I know of, the clones are bascially big fleshy puppets, they cannot reproduce without the Thorian itself.

[Julia343]

Shepard's ground team was decontaminated before entering the Normandy in case they brought a xenomorph with them. You know that. It was on every loading screen when you boarded the Normandy.