230 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I'm no scientist, but even if the OP hypothesis is right and there are mini Thorians growing in the colonists it doesn't mean they're doomed.


As of ME2 they're receiving advanced medical treatment/study courtesy of Baria Frontiers.


Feros is an Exo-Geni colony, and as of ME2 they're still researching the dead Thorian, perhaps leading to treatment options.


Given that the Thorian life cycle involves long periods of hibernation like behaviour, it's not an unreasonable possibility that the gestation period of the spores is longer than a human, salarian, or even asari life time.


Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy animal life being a key part of Thorian evolution and biology. The Thorian proved itself capable of creating it's own semi-independent army (creepers and clones), why would it need aliens?

That's only if the spore haven't effected their nervous system. And from the sound of things, it has.

[HolyAvenger]

Time for...Exterminatus.

[Raxxman]

dreman9999 wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I'm no scientist, but even if the OP hypothesis is right and there are mini Thorians growing in the colonists it doesn't mean they're doomed.


As of ME2 they're receiving advanced medical treatment/study courtesy of Baria Frontiers.


Feros is an Exo-Geni colony, and as of ME2 they're still researching the dead Thorian, perhaps leading to treatment options.


Given that the Thorian life cycle involves long periods of hibernation like behaviour, it's not an unreasonable possibility that the gestation period of the spores is longer than a human, salarian, or even asari life time.


Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy animal life being a key part of Thorian evolution and biology. The Thorian proved itself capable of creating it's own semi-independent army (creepers and clones), why would it need aliens?

That's only if the spore haven't effected their nervous system. And from the sound of things, it has.

That made no sense whatsoever.

[TenmaTaro]

I've purged most of the leaked script from my brain, do we even get to visit Feros in ME3?

[Arrtis]

All I can say is the Thorian did survive all the reaper invasions somehow.
Either by being able to reproduce secretly or by simply hiding...

[dreman9999]

Raxxman wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I'm no scientist, but even if the OP hypothesis is right and there are mini Thorians growing in the colonists it doesn't mean they're doomed.


As of ME2 they're receiving advanced medical treatment/study courtesy of Baria Frontiers.


Feros is an Exo-Geni colony, and as of ME2 they're still researching the dead Thorian, perhaps leading to treatment options.


Given that the Thorian life cycle involves long periods of hibernation like behaviour, it's not an unreasonable possibility that the gestation period of the spores is longer than a human, salarian, or even asari life time.


Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy animal life being a key part of Thorian evolution and biology. The Thorian proved itself capable of creating it's own semi-independent army (creepers and clones), why would it need aliens?

That's only if the spore haven't effected their nervous system. And from the sound of things, it has.

That made no sense whatsoever.

Think of it like Alzheimer’s. It's a dease that effects a
person by degenerating neurons in the brain. Neurons or commonly know as nerve
cells are the most delicate type of cells in the body....Once drastically
damage, they don't heal or heal properly.  Hence why Alzheimer’s is incurable,
it needs to be stopped or prevented. 


The thorian spores effect the nervous system, It
clear by the fact that it controls the actions and though posses of the colonist.
It can cause spasms and pain to there victims and turn them into slaves. In
ME2, they still have spasms and pain. Like all nerve disorders, to stop it you
need to catch it early or it get worse. These colonists had these spores in
them for 2 years and they still are trying to figure out what's wrong. Even
Shiala skin pigments changed and biotic power are uncontrollable. My point is
even if it's stopped at this point....It may have done a lot of damage and you
can't cure extensive nerve damage.

[Raxxman]

dreman9999 wrote...

Raxxman wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I'm no scientist, but even if the OP hypothesis is right and there are mini Thorians growing in the colonists it doesn't mean they're doomed.


As of ME2 they're receiving advanced medical treatment/study courtesy of Baria Frontiers.


Feros is an Exo-Geni colony, and as of ME2 they're still researching the dead Thorian, perhaps leading to treatment options.


Given that the Thorian life cycle involves long periods of hibernation like behaviour, it's not an unreasonable possibility that the gestation period of the spores is longer than a human, salarian, or even asari life time.


Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy animal life being a key part of Thorian evolution and biology. The Thorian proved itself capable of creating it's own semi-independent army (creepers and clones), why would it need aliens?

That's only if the spore haven't effected their nervous system. And from the sound of things, it has.

That made no sense whatsoever.

Think of it like Alzheimer’s. It's a dease that effects a
person by degenerating neurons in the brain. Neurons or commonly know as nerve
cells are the most delicate type of cells in the body....Once drastically
damage, they don't heal or heal properly.  Hence why Alzheimer’s is incurable,
it needs to be stopped or prevented. 


The thorian spores effect the nervous system, It
clear by the fact that it controls the actions and though posses of the colonist.
It can cause spasms and pain to there victims and turn them into slaves. In
ME2, they still have spasms and pain. Like all nerve disorders, to stop it you
need to catch it early or it get worse. These colonists had these spores in
them for 2 years and they still are trying to figure out what's wrong. Even
Shiala skin pigments changed and biotic power are uncontrollable. My point is
even if it's stopped at this point....It may have done a lot of damage and you
can't cure extensive nerve damage.

Multiple neurotoxins cause nerological damage, just because we lack the capacity to repair the damage today doesn't mean that we wont in 200 years.

And Cerberus can reconstruct a brain in ME2.

I don't see how intergalatic travel is fine, but advancing cellular reconstruction is apparently never going to happen. Especially considering we're much closer to the latter than the former.

[SouzaNZ]

The title needs to be edited. Either remove the should or the most, it doesn't make sense with both.

Interesting idea though. Kill them all, kill them all with fire.

[Inquisitor Recon]

You're right. The colony must be purged with fire...

Also it would be wise not to sleep with Shiala.

[dreman9999]

Raxxman wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Raxxman wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I'm no scientist, but even if the OP hypothesis is right and there are mini Thorians growing in the colonists it doesn't mean they're doomed.


As of ME2 they're receiving advanced medical treatment/study courtesy of Baria Frontiers.


Feros is an Exo-Geni colony, and as of ME2 they're still researching the dead Thorian, perhaps leading to treatment options.


Given that the Thorian life cycle involves long periods of hibernation like behaviour, it's not an unreasonable possibility that the gestation period of the spores is longer than a human, salarian, or even asari life time.


Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy animal life being a key part of Thorian evolution and biology. The Thorian proved itself capable of creating it's own semi-independent army (creepers and clones), why would it need aliens?

That's only if the spore haven't effected their nervous system. And from the sound of things, it has.

That made no sense whatsoever.

Think of it like Alzheimer’s. It's a dease that effects a
person by degenerating neurons in the brain. Neurons or commonly know as nerve
cells are the most delicate type of cells in the body....Once drastically
damage, they don't heal or heal properly.  Hence why Alzheimer’s is incurable,
it needs to be stopped or prevented. 


The thorian spores effect the nervous system, It
clear by the fact that it controls the actions and though posses of the colonist.
It can cause spasms and pain to there victims and turn them into slaves. In
ME2, they still have spasms and pain. Like all nerve disorders, to stop it you
need to catch it early or it get worse. These colonists had these spores in
them for 2 years and they still are trying to figure out what's wrong. Even
Shiala skin pigments changed and biotic power are uncontrollable. My point is
even if it's stopped at this point....It may have done a lot of damage and you
can't cure extensive nerve damage.

Multiple neurotoxins cause nerological damage, just because we lack the capacity to repair the damage today doesn't mean that we wont in 200 years.

And Cerberus can reconstruct a brain in ME2.

I don't see how intergalatic travel is fine, but advancing cellular reconstruction is apparently never going to happen. Especially considering we're much closer to the latter than the former.

I understand this. But it's not just the outer nerve system.
It's the inner nerve system that was dramatically affected. To fix that, it
would be like pulling out all the wire in the house and replacing them with new
wires. A way something like the thorian would control some one with spores
would be rewiring a being nervous system by putting new forms of transmitter
and revisers in the path of neurons. It more of a physical change to the body
then a chemical one. There is no quick fix for something like that. Any current
from of stopping or killing he spores could paralyze the infected permanently
and extensively to a point of mortality. I understand they rebuild Shep's brain
but how likely is that tech even close to be put out to the public....A
cerberus experiment at that. That would be exactly the same concept of rewiring
a house. I'm not say it totally incurable, just that the extinctive physical
effect of the thorian spores is not an easy fix and tech need to fix it is far
away...They need to rebuild the neurons to fix and the extension of medicine in
ME is the full understanding of chemical changes, not physical changes.

[MrFob]

My advise: Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[IllusiveMike]

Um, shouldn't Shep also kill his squad and blow his own brains out to protect the galaxy as well?

Since the face mask couldn't have been worn, Shep and company* inhaled spores too.

*(Tali, Wrex, and Garrus would be safe if you have the extreme good fortune to have them wear their helmets, while human armors had no face mask on the helmets in "breathe-able" atmospheres).

Ironically, saving the galaxy from the Thorian means dooming the galaxy as Shep won't stop Saren. Maybe the Normandy's survivors can take over...

Modifié par IllusiveMike, 28 février 2012 - 07:13 .

[dreman9999]

IllusiveMike wrote...

Um, shouldn't Shep also kill his squad and blow his own brains out to protect the galaxy as well?

Since the face mask couldn't have been worn, Shep and company* inhaled spores too.

*(Tali, Wrex, and Garrus would be safe if you have the extreme good fortune to have them wear their helmets, while human armors had no face mask on the helmets in "breathe-able" atmospheres).

Ironically, saving the galaxy from the Thorian means dooming the galaxy as Shep won't stop Saren. Maybe the Normandy's survivors can take over...

No, the spores never got intergrated into their nervous system. They were therefor too short a time. It's something that's only aproblem if you exposed for a long term.

[IllusiveMike]

No, either the individual spores work or they don't.

I don't see how repeated exposure is REQUIRED for one to take hold?

[dreman9999]

IllusiveMike wrote...

No, either the individual spores work or they don't.

I don't see how repeated exposure is REQUIRED for one to take hold?

It's the same reason why indocination needs long term exposer. It's even less effective then that. The spores need to attach themselves to the internal portions of a beings body to be effective....That means they need to go intothe circlitory system.(Heart, veins and so on.) That takes time, being that they have to go through the defenses of the respiratory system first and then fight the natural defensices of the body. Most cases, a person would just breath out the majority of spores they breath in. That would mean very little of the spores would get to the places need tobe effective. And what every chemical effect they use to protect themselves fro the bodies defences would be minimal because it's not produced at mass.This mean the small amount of spores in the system would be disolved away before thewould have any effect.

[NoxJuked]

Well RP wise I don't believe Shepard is the type of scientist person that would come to kill them because he happened to know about this whole thing.

Edit: Wouldn't want anyone on my crew that gets killed by a stupid thorian either just fyi weaksauce compared to what they have all been through. RUTHLESS RENEGADE

Modifié par NoxJuked, 28 février 2012 - 07:41 .

[LordAnguis]

Huh. pretty damn good theory. I never thought of it like that before but in a way it makes sense.

I'm suddenly very happy about my occasional mass-murder sprees on Feros....

[Raxxman]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

I understand this. But it's not just the outer nerve system.
It's the inner nerve system that was dramatically affected.
[/quote]

Okay, stop stop stop stop.

Central Nervous System (CNS)

Peripheral Nervous System (PNS)

Not outer and inner.

[quote]
To fix that, it
would be like pulling out all the wire in the house and replacing them with new
wires. A way something like the thorian would control some one with spores
would be rewiring a being nervous system by putting new forms of transmitter
and revisers in the path of neurons. It more of a physical change to the body
then a chemical one.
[/quote]

Em, you know we can already operate on the CNS for people effected with multiple sclerosis? Also if the effect is similar to growths in the body, then Humanity has already delt with Cancer in the ME universe (see either revelation or redemption, one of the two). Similar treatments can be tailored, per example retrovirus specifically designed to target unique surface receptors on throian cells could kill all live tissue. It's more than possible if you consider that these things are already being experimented upon IRL.

You draw a huge number of assumptions. The most common (comic book style) way of this kind of control is a localised cluster somewhere at the base of the neck, but in reality there are many different types of neural parasites which operate in different ways. See http://neurophilosop...-by-a-parasite/ for some interesting (if slightly distrubing) parasites. Note that none of them primarely occupay the brain of the host until the final stage.

[quote]
There is no quick fix for something like that. Any current
from of stopping or killing he spores could paralyze the infected permanently
and extensively to a point of mortality.
[/quote]

So like; it's hard so lets just kill them? Sure thing.

[quote]
I understand they rebuild Shep's brain
but how likely is that tech even close to be put out to the public....A
cerberus experiment at that. That would be exactly the same concept of rewiring
a house.
[/quote]

You know rewiriting a house is entirely possible, and often done. You seem to stop at it's hard so lets just quit.

[/quote]
I'm not say it totally incurable, just that the extinctive physical
effect of the thorian spores is not an easy fix and tech need to fix it is far
away...They need to rebuild the neurons to fix and the extension of medicine in
ME is the full understanding of chemical changes, not physical changes.[/quote]

You honestly sound  like you don't really understand the current standing of drug related therapy and tissue engineered solutions. I'm talking about just randomly injecting cells into things, but guided tissue regeneration is already a reality (and a field I work in). My dad is a physchiatrist (retired now) and the sheer diversity of treatments avalible now for conditions which were simply untreatable when he started amazes him (although companies do go Exo Geni in real life so you need to be careful about what data they show you).

There's no proof that the people of Zhu's hope have suffered advanced neurological damage, indeed Shiala is perfertly mentaly coherant when you speak to her.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Time for...Exterminatus.

Purge the unclean!

[Olej z Maku]

bobobo878 wrote...

Olej z Maku wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
Thorians and Drell didn't have to evolve to look just like humans either, but they did anyway.  Convergent evolution is a common theme in this series.

True, but what does that have to do with my argument that spores don't have to grow into new Thorians?

My point is that any good science can be used to make predictions.  Even if the Thorian is not completely the same as earthly plants, many of the same rules governing their mechanics may still apply.

What you are doing is speculation you dont have any evidence. BTW it is video game there is no evidence and no way do gather it. You would have to verify it or make atempt to falsify your hypothesis which would tak time you dont have and even than you still wouldn't have certainty you need to justify purging Zhu's Hope.

[Chapity]

Wow, like the thread. Interesting theory. You have found some combatants too, even a few who take the science to task. Does it get any better? I will say this, shiala going green always bothered me. Obviously there is more to the spore thing than headaches and nerve damage and I am hoping that they explore some sort of possibility. Best thread I have seen in a while. That does it, pre order uncancelled.

[dreman9999]

[quote]Raxxman wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

I understand this. But it's not just the outer nerve system.
It's the inner nerve system that was dramatically affected.
[/quote]

Okay, stop stop stop stop.

Central Nervous System (CNS)

Peripheral Nervous System (PNS)

Not outer and inner.

[quote]
To fix that, it
would be like pulling out all the wire in the house and replacing them with new
wires. A way something like the thorian would control some one with spores
would be rewiring a being nervous system by putting new forms of transmitter
and revisers in the path of neurons. It more of a physical change to the body
then a chemical one.
[/quote]

Em, you know we can already operate on the CNS for people effected with multiple sclerosis? Also if the effect is similar to growths in the body, then Humanity has already delt with Cancer in the ME universe (see either revelation or redemption, one of the two). Similar treatments can be tailored, per example retrovirus specifically designed to target unique surface receptors on throian cells could kill all live tissue. It's more than possible if you consider that these things are already being experimented upon IRL.

You draw a huge number of assumptions. The most common (comic book style) way of this kind of control is a localised cluster somewhere at the base of the neck, but in reality there are many different types of neural parasites which operate in different ways. See http://neurophilosop...-by-a-parasite/ for some interesting (if slightly distrubing) parasites. Note that none of them primarely occupay the brain of the host until the final stage.

[quote]
There is no quick fix for something like that. Any current
from of stopping or killing he spores could paralyze the infected permanently
and extensively to a point of mortality.
[/quote]

So like; it's hard so lets just kill them? Sure thing.

[quote]
I understand they rebuild Shep's brain
but how likely is that tech even close to be put out to the public....A
cerberus experiment at that. That would be exactly the same concept of rewiring
a house.
[/quote]

You know rewiriting a house is entirely possible, and often done. You seem to stop at it's hard so lets just quit.

[/quote]
I'm not say it totally incurable, just that the extinctive physical
effect of the thorian spores is not an easy fix and tech need to fix it is far
away...They need to rebuild the neurons to fix and the extension of medicine in
ME is the full understanding of chemical changes, not physical changes.[/quote]

You honestly sound  like you don't really understand the current standing of drug related therapy and tissue engineered solutions. I'm talking about just randomly injecting cells into things, but guided tissue regeneration is already a reality (and a field I work in). My dad is a physchiatrist (retired now) and the sheer diversity of treatments avalible now for conditions which were simply untreatable when he started amazes him (although companies do go Exo Geni in real life so you need to be careful about what data they show you).

There's no proof that the people of Zhu's hope have suffered advanced neurological damage, indeed Shiala is perfertly mentaly coherant when you speak to her.

[/quote]
About killing the thorian cells...I would not do it. As I
said before which you missed. The thorian cells place them selves in a place and
form to intercept neuron communication. Just killing them would leave a gap in
the neuron communication, meaning a gamble of penalization. Also, from the
sound of it, it looks like you think it would be a few growths in the
body....How did get that conclusion? I would assume that the extended exposer
to spore had the effect of countless amounts of spores in the body. The only
way to take get them out is to surgically take them out and the rewire the neural
path ways to be able to work ike they did before the infection. The problem
with that is the question of how many spores are in the body and how many
nerves are affected.....Rewiring the human body nervous system surgically to
that extension would near impossible.

I understand about restoring cells but the scope
what you’re restoring. Even you would understand taking a persons nervous
system out only to replace it with a new one is an extremely complex and near improbable
surgery. The problem with the concept it the question of how much of the
inner nervous system needs to be replaced or restored.

As for my reference to rewiring house, yes I know
with as house it can be done...But my point is doing any thing like to the extent
need to take out all the thorian cell would disastrous.

 My point is
that they way the spores wired themselves to the body, the amount of spores
possible in the body, makes then trick to just kill or cut out do to the fact
the killing them would stop the neurons ability to properly communicate be that
part of the network would be gone and the shear amount of spores need to be
taken out would mean a surgical attempt that would staggering.....It would take
year to do with one person in the mass effect universe.

[Raxxman]

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm not say it totally incurable, just that the extinctive physical
effect of the thorian spores is not an easy fix and tech need to fix it is far
away...They need to rebuild the neurons to fix and the extension of medicine in
ME is the full understanding of chemical changes, not physical changes.

You have no proof that the neurons are actually damaged. And guided regeneration of nerves is already a reality, right now. Sure it's in its infancy but the technology exists, invovling both physical regeneration of nerves and chemical restoration of balance (although that is more pharmacologies home ground)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ve regeneration

Can we stop pretending an active field of study which I participate in doesn't exist.

About killing the thorian cells...I would not do it. As I
said before which you missed. The thorian cells place them selves in a place and
form to intercept neuron communication. Just killing them would leave a gap in
the neuron communication, meaning a gamble of penalization.

You've just made that up. It's in no dialgoue options to support or even suggest this, and doesn't correspond with how any real life parasite works. In short it's bunk.

Also, from the
sound of it, it looks like you think it would be a few growths in the
body....How did get that conclusion? I would assume that the extended exposer
to spore had the effect of countless amounts of spores in the body.

2:48, specific quote

it has to be results of trace amounts of the Thorians parasitic spores

now there are 2 definitions of trace which could in theory be applied here:

1. Evidence or an indication of the former presence or existence of something; a vestige.
2. An extremely small amount.
     A constituent, such as a chemical compound or element, present in quantities less than a standard limit.

Now while you might think the first meaning is pertinent to the topic of conversation, the second one makes substantially more sense within the context; when I talk about trace solvents, I mean I'm aware they're present, but below detection threshold. Basically I'm not going to accept the first definition, because of the term 'trace amounts' which doesn't fit with the first definition of trace;  that being more in line with the Protheans leaving behind traces of their existance.

This would imply that the spores are few and hard to detect, not prevelent.

The only
way to take get them out is to surgically take them out and the rewire the neural
path ways to be able to work ike they did before the infection. The problem
with that is the question of how many spores are in the body and how many
nerves are affected.....Rewiring the human body nervous system surgically to
that extension would near impossible.

Again you don't actually have any evidence this is at all how it's working. With the last point standing; only trace amounts, it's entirely possible that any removal of spores which did cause any damage, would be so insignificant the body could heal itself. Despite popular opinion, nerve cells do exhibit a capacity for neural regeneration in small defects.

So no I don't agree with your evaluation of the situation.

I understand about restoring cells but the scope
what you’re restoring. Even you would understand taking a persons nervous
system out only to replace it with a new one is an extremely complex and near improbable
surgery. The problem with the concept it the question of how much of the
inner nervous system needs to be replaced or restored.

Once again with the word inner, when you mean central. There's actually no evidence that the central nervous system is even infected, the sensation of pain, how the Thorian maintains order upon its thralls could be achieved by stimulation of the peripheral nervous system. Once again you jump to a large, unsubstantiated conclusion to support your claims. I find it quite funny, that while you've allowed yourself several logic leaps, and provided nothing but an analogy, you're very quick to challenge my source in and out of game.

As for my reference to rewiring house, yes I know
with as house it can be done...But my point is doing any thing like to the extent
need to take out all the thorian cell would disastrous.

Which is once again, not in sync with anything the game provides, and requires a huge logic jump.

My point is
that they way the spores wired themselves to the body, the amount of spores
possible in the body, makes then trick to just kill or cut out do to the fact
the killing them would stop the neurons ability to properly communicate be that
part of the network would be gone and the shear amount of spores need to be
taken out would mean a surgical attempt that would staggering.....It would take
year to do with one person in the mass effect universe.

This is just repeatition of an unsubstantiated claim. you're actually getting to the point where you're self referencing a baseless theory, building up layers of assumptions.

Just to recap

1. You have zero evidence to conclude that the spore have wired themselves into the body in such a way that removal/inactivation would cause irrevesable neurological damage. This is a cornerstone of your arguement, and you have nothing to back it up with. No reference to real life analogies, no reference to in game quotation. While I'm  more than happy to (and clearly enjoy when) allow science to go to the back seat and employ fuzy logic for the sake of entertainment, you're not in the position to make those decisions for Mass Effect. If a BioWare writer was to say this is how it works my reaction would be 'Lol, stupid biological nonsense' and let it slide. Much like I do with the Quarians going from our 'immune system is too weak to fight infections' to 'we suffer from hyperallergenic reactions to everything, lets pump ourselves full of antibiotics, which in all likelyhood would trigger an allergic reaction and kill us.'

2. You have zero evidence to suggest that killing the spores (if they're even currently alive) would cause any damage whatsoever. This conclusion is drawn entirely from the first point, it's a claim built upon a claim which has no support

3. In game evidence states the amount of spores is nearly undetectable, that's the scientific use of the word 'trace'. So this is even worse than the first point, because it's conclusively wrong.

4. You don't understand how tissue regeneration works, Also I'll just leave this here to show how far we are in circumventing nerve damage in 2012.

http://www.foxnews.c...etting-implant/

baby steps, but not the impossibility you describe.

Now I'm more than happy to have a discussion with hyperbole and conjecture, because we're talking sci fi, and it's entirely possible that BioWare would write it your way (at which point I'd argue to bad science, but this is sci-fi, and not a grant application, so whatever). But tissue regeneration is my job; so really, playing the 'na you don't understand' card is a terrible idea, because I do.

[suprhomre]

No making right choices means less drama and less drama means less gaming, or excitement.

[Ghost Lightning]

suprhomre wrote...

No making right choices means less drama and less drama means less gaming, or excitement.

that all depends on one's idea of "right choices"