176 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyinElk212]

A bioware def kinda already stated it earlier, but Drell Vanguards are a different type of Vanguard. Instead of charging into a group of enemies, guns blazing, you have to have a lot more finesse. I find that using a scoped pistol from cover, THEN when most bogeys are down charging in and melee/shotgunning them to death is the best way to go.

I personally find Drell Vanguards thrilling. Instead of the proto-typical "LOL BRONZE MODE CHARGE->NOVA NINJAKILLS", Dreel Vanguards require precision and much more careful usage of the vanguard charge.

[IlluminaZer0]

Shin0biwan wrote...
Charging IS how a Vanguard plays as part of a team. With a Vanguard around, you shouldn't be worrying about taking out trash enemies. You should be worrying about taking out the targets that are going to slow the Vanguard down or kill him, such as Engineers, Turrets, Atlases, Guardians, to some extent Phantoms, and enemies that are outside of the Vanguard's kill zone that can threaten him with crossfire. If you're not willing to cover your allies' weaknesses and let them exploit their strengths (especially if the reason is due to meaningless points), then you're the one who isn't the team player, not the Vanguard.

? Vanguards don't have problems taking out Phantoms and Engineers. In fact it's to a Human Vanguard's benefit to be even more aggressive so as to kill the Engineers before/while they are placing their turrets. Phantoms get rolled over by Charge->Nova just as easily as any "trash enemy," especially with pierce.

I wouldn't call all enemies excluding Guardians/Atlases "Trash enemies." Every class that is caught by surprise gets killed by turrets, that is more an element of their DPS than a Vanguard specific weakness. The only reason people act like it's a Vanguard countermeasure is that Human Vanguards are for more likely to be out in the open without any nearby cover.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 01 mars 2012 - 07:43 .

[Delta 57 Dash]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...

Shin0biwan wrote...
Charging IS how a Vanguard plays as part of a team. With a Vanguard around, you shouldn't be worrying about taking out trash enemies. You should be worrying about taking out the targets that are going to slow the Vanguard down or kill him, such as Engineers, Turrets, Atlases, Guardians, to some extent Phantoms, and enemies that are outside of the Vanguard's kill zone that can threaten him with crossfire. If you're not willing to cover your allies' weaknesses and let them exploit their strengths (especially if the reason is due to meaningless points), then you're the one who isn't the team player, not the Vanguard.

? Vanguards don't have problems taking out Phantoms and Engineers. In fact it's to a Human Vanguard's benefit to be even more aggressive so as to kill the Engineers before/while they are placing their turrets. Phantoms get rolled over by Charge->Nova just as easily as any "trash enemy," especially with pierce.

I wouldn't call all enemies excluding Guardians/Atlases "Trash enemies." Every class that is caught by surprise gets killed by turrets, that is more an element of their DPS than a Vanguard specific weakness.

Salarian Infiltrators laugh at your "turrets"

[IlluminaZer0]

Delta 57 Dash wrote...

Salarian Infiltrators laugh at your "turrets"

"Caught by surprise."

All you have to do is pull back out of the turrets firing range. They cannot exactly follow you. The "trash enemies" surrounding the turret WILL follow you.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 01 mars 2012 - 07:49 .

[Esperys]

The reason I think people make turrets out to be a 'vanguard specific weakness' is that turrets are one of the few things that can actually make it past a vanguards immunity frames and take them out of a charge>nova>nova>charge rotation

[Delta 57 Dash]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...

Delta 57 Dash wrote...

Salarian Infiltrators laugh at your "turrets"

"Caught by surprise."

All you have to do is pull back out of the turrets firing range. They cannot exactly follow you. The "trash enemies" surrounding the turret WILL follow you.

Energy Drain.  The nice turret gives you all your shields back. Every 2.5 seconds.

[IlluminaZer0]

Delta 57 Dash wrote...
Energy Drain.  The nice turret gives you all your shields back. Every 2.5 seconds.

Yeah... Your point is? I never said Salarian Infiltrator was weak. If the entire premise of your argument is that "there exsists a class that can do something better!" Well... I certainly hope so. Otherwise the game would not just be imbalanced, it would be laughably so.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 01 mars 2012 - 08:09 .

[Delta 57 Dash]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...

Delta 57 Dash wrote...
Energy Drain.  The nice turret gives you all your shields back. Every 2.5 seconds.

Yeah... Your point is? I never said Salarian Infiltrator was weak. If the entire premise of your argument is that "there exsists a class that can do something better!" Well... I certainly hope so. Otherwise the game would not just be imbalanced, it would be laughably so.

By your post, I thought you meant that the Salarian was still screwed if he got caught by surprise... my mistake.

But to go back on topic, my only issue with the Drell is that his shields are just TOO fragile.  Like, I can understand making him slightly weaker.  But when I have maximum Shield Fitness on my Drellguard, and his shots break from a single Guardian shot on SILVER.... something is wrong.

[IlluminaZer0]

Delta 57 Dash wrote...
By your post, I thought you meant that the Salarian was still screwed if he got caught by surprise... my mistake

Yes. Getting caught by surprise often entails being shot at while not knowing where/what exactly is shooting you. If you are able to calmly locate the turret, it is likely they are either in your face (not much of a surprise) or you are not in any serious danger.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 01 mars 2012 - 08:26 .

[Delta 57 Dash]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...

Delta 57 Dash wrote...
By your post, I thought you meant that the Salarian was still screwed if he got caught by surprise... my mistake

Yes. Getting caught by surprise often entails being shot at while not knowing where/what exactly is shooting you. If you are able to calmly locate the turret, it is likely they are either in your face (not much of a surprise) or you are not in any serious danger.

Or you pushed cloak and got into cover. Which gives you 10+ seconds to locate it, drain it, and go on your merry way.

anyways, ON TOPIC:

What are people's opinions on cluster grenades? I've found that while they tend to be total suck at long range, point-blank ones raise the roof quite nicely.

[Kakaw]

marshalleck wrote...

I can't complete a single damn mission with my drell vanguard without bugging and flying up into the sky or falling through the world.

[Kakaw]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

The demo allowed us to gather a lot of feedback on all the kits and we will be making balance changes to many of them as the game comes out. We'll keep you posted on all the changes.

I hope you're not swapping the toolset/powers of my drell vanguard<3?

Just boost my shields, ok?

Also I've been wondering, what's this thing where my drell recharges shields right after taking damage? Sometimes his shields bounce up and down (no, im not charging or using the 6 hotkey). Even while being shot at by, for instance phantoms. Is it a racial trait or just lag? Only noticed it twice so could have been lag

Btw, anything Lifted, can't be hit by melee.

Modifié par Kakaw, 01 mars 2012 - 09:32 .

[shepskisaac]

Kakaw wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

The demo allowed us to gather a lot of feedback on all the kits and we will be making balance changes to many of them as the game comes out. We'll keep you posted on all the changes.

I hope you're not swapping the toolset/powers of my drell vanguard<3?

Just boost my shields, ok?

Yes please, only shields buff, everything else is good! 

BTW, has anyone unlocked Drell's Skin Tones? I would really like to see what are the options

[royard]

Shin0biwan wrote...

Of course not. But surviving longer at the cost of never dealing damage with your most damaging attack bar none will most certainly decrease your damage output significantly.

If you're cancelling all of your Novas, then the only damage you're dealing is one charge every 3ish seconds. That causes your damage output to drop from great to pathetic.

Why are you so fixated on "vaguards must do TONS of damage" idea?  Asari adepts don't do tons of damage, yet they are universally desired due to their support ability.  A vanguard with area charge can keep three guys on the floor forever, and that's a HUGE thing becuase there are only 8 enemies on the map at any given time, and some of these enemies are spawned elsewhere, leaving you only 5 or 6 to deal with. 

If a vanguard can reliably distracts 3 enemies for 3 seconds without dying, your teammates can easily take them down with sniper fire or biotic explosion. 

And that's why nova cancelling is overpowered.  Just like stasis is. 

Shin0biwan wrote...

1) Drell Vanguards
already do that - Pull to bring them out of cover, then charge + shotgun
or melee. It's not very useful if you can't survive in your new
position.

2) Asari are certainly better at handling Phantoms than
Vanguards. Phantoms love to linger around enemies that Vanguards don't
like to mess with.

3) Constantly charging has been the name of
the game since ME2. People love it. It doesn't really matter if you
don't - others do, it works, and it fits within the coop environment
very well.

. . .

Charging IS how a Vanguard plays as part of a team. With a Vanguard
around, you shouldn't be worrying about taking out trash enemies. You
should be worrying about taking out the targets that are going to slow
the Vanguard down or kill him, such as Engineers, Turrets, Atlases,
Guardians, to some extent Phantoms, and enemies that are outside of the
Vanguard's kill zone that can threaten him with crossfire. If you're not
willing to cover your allies' weaknesses and let them exploit their
strengths (especially if the reason is due to meaningless points), then
you're the one who isn't the team player, not the Vanguard.

Drell has to deplete their shields first. 

Also, just because you like to charge doesn't mean everyone has to cave to your playstyle.  "Teamwork" doesn't mean "the team works for me." 

[Kakaw]

IsaacShep wrote...

Kakaw wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

The demo allowed us to gather a lot of feedback on all the kits and we will be making balance changes to many of them as the game comes out. We'll keep you posted on all the changes.

I hope you're not swapping the toolset/powers of my drell vanguard<3?

Just boost my shields, ok?

Yes please, only shields buff, everything else is good! 

BTW, has anyone unlocked Drell's Skin Tones? I would really like to see what are the options

Light colours, light greens and light pinks and light blues and light browns and light purpleish. Think salmon colours, I suppose, but weak kinds.

Modifié par Kakaw, 01 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[shepskisaac]

Could you take a screen of his skin tones Kakaw?

[Kakaw]

IsaacShep wrote...

Could you take a screen of his skin tones Kakaw?

I only get black screens. I can take a photo with my cellphone, but I've never posted a picture on this forum with success before.

PM me a mail adress I can send to and you've got a deal

Modifié par Kakaw, 01 mars 2012 - 10:16 .

[Kakaw]

.

Modifié par Kakaw, 01 mars 2012 - 10:26 .

[Moonshadow_Dark]

Drell Vanguards are not like Human ones. Humans are considered the Tank. They rush in, take the aggro and take massive amounts of damage. Drell are better suited for the quick "Get in, Get out" style and make great finishers. If you find yourself playing a Drell Vanguard and dying, it's because you're trying to be the Tank. You want to be the attack plane. Hit them fast and then get the Geth out and do it again.

[Shin0biwan]

 

IlluminaZer0 wrote...
? Vanguards don't have problems taking out Phantoms and Engineers.

Vanguards have problems taking out Phantoms when they're near other enemies that Vanguards have difficulty with. That's why I said "to some extent."

Vanguards don't have problems killing Engineers, but if they miss one and don't kill it fast enough, the turret is going to slow them down significantly, so allies helping to pick them off helps the Vanguard keep doing his job. They also might not be able to rush the Engineer due to other problematic enemies being nearby, and dropping the turret will only further delay the Vanguard.

IlluminaZer0 wrote... 
I wouldn't call all enemies excluding Guardians/Atlases "Trash enemies."

I wouldn't either. If you looked at my list, the only remaining enemies are the assault troopers, centurions, and nemeises. These are the enemies that can be killed easily compared to the other unit types but can overrun your allies with numbers and flanking. Vanguard's job is to stop that.

IlluminaZer0 wrote...  
Every class that is caught by surprise gets killed by turrets, that is more an element of their DPS than a Vanguard specific weakness. The only reason people act like it's a Vanguard countermeasure is that Human Vanguards are for more likely to be out in the open without any nearby cover.

 

That's exactly why turrets are a bigger threat to Vanguards. Other classes can work from cover while Vanguards usually don't, at least not the type of Vanguard we're discussing here. Vanguards need to drop everything they're doing or die, while the rest of the classes just need to get into cover/shift position and take it out to continue.

royard wrote...
Why are you so fixated on "vaguards must do TONS of damage" idea? Asari adepts don't do tons of damage, 
yet they are universally desired due to their support ability. 

Asaris do quite a bit of damage actually. And the problem is that if you're roll cancelling, you're losing out on a lot of damage that you could be doing, plain and simple. And keeping 3 enemies on the floor forever (which isn't quite true, shielded enemies can still shoot between staggers from charges, and charge will take forever to peel their shields) isn't even close to as good as killing them within one barrage.

Also, don't lose context. This is a Vanguard who is cancelling all of its Novas with a roll. He's literally doing no damage aside from his charges. That's not a meaningful contribution to a team.

royard wrote... 
If a vanguard can reliably distracts 3 enemies for 3 seconds without dying, your teammates can easily take them down with sniper fire or biotic explosion.  

Or you could kill those enemies and let your allies deal with an entirely separate group.

royard wrote... 
And that's why nova cancelling is overpowered.  Just like stasis is.  

It's not only overpowered, it's not even helpful. You reduce your damage and increase your vulnerability time without any benefit whatsoever.

royard wrote... 
Drell has to deplete their shields first.  

No they don't. Pulling a shielded enemy still rips them forward a little and dislodges them from cover. With a low enough cooldown, you have time to charge.

royard wrote... 
Also, just because you like to charge doesn't mean everyone has to cave to your playstyle.  "Teamwork" doesn't mean "the team works for me." 

Teamwork means pooling different classes' strengths and covering their weaknesses. That's not going to happen if you ask your Vanguard not to do what he's best at.

[PrinceLionheart]

 Oh yeah, if bioware is going to do some balancing, you guys might want to considering reducing the amout of ranged damage the Phantom can do. I'm not saying make them weaker completely, but they nearly do as much damage as the Nemesis (the snipers) at ranged position.

[UnbornLeviathan]

[quote]Berkilak wrote...

CGaspur wrote...

The Drell Vanguard is a finesse class by design but is very powerful in the right hands.
The art of playing the Drell:
- The Drell has the fastest base movement and sprint speed, take advantage of this.
If you're running, you're not gunning. Yes, you can reposition and evade like no one else. But that's about all you'll be doing.
- The Drell is an assassin: an extremely effective single target killer. Do not charge into mobs; pick enemies off one by one.
The single-target niche loses almost all meaning on Gold difficulty. They bring a lot more friends.
- You can backflip or side flip away as soon as the Biotic charge hits, take advantage of this. Never allow the enemy to be able to counter attack.
Again, locking down a single target is easy. It's everyone else that you need to worry about.
- The Drells evades cover the most distance, have no cooldown and you take 50% less damage while doing them. So keep moving!
See the first point. Also, there is a very slight cooldown. And enemies tend to take advantage of it.
- The Drell is pure Hit and run, charge shotgun or heavy melee and backflip away, use Cluster grenade if you are in trouble.
Again, a moot point, since you can be taken down in a fraction of a second during a heavy melee or a reload.
- Stay out of enclosed spaces with the Drell any space that boxes him in is a death trap.
Actually, they tend to be most effective. Cluster grenades absolutely shine in this situation, and "boxy" areas are rife with cover, which a drell needs to survive. Unless you are just theorycrafting that some coverless boxed area exists and we would do bad in them. I would agree there, but it's nothing but theory.
- Spatial awareness is key while playing the Drell, stay near your team and always backflip towards them.
Very obvious and applies to everyone.
- Practice makes perfect, he is not easy to play but so rewarding when you figure the class out. I am easily hitting top scores with him on Silver and Gold runs.
Silver, sure. Drellguards are biotic gods on Silver. Gold, I'll need proof.


All of this applies to Silver, but not Gold. You lay out an excellect theoretical playstyle for Gold, but it simply doesn't exist. Numerically impossible.
[/quote]

[quote]Purple Protector wrote...

[quote]CGaspur wrote...

The Drell Vanguard is a finesse class by design but is very powerful in the right hands. 
The art of playing the Drell:
- The Drell has the fastest base movement and sprint speed, take advantage of this.
Ok, that's helpsZERO against the aimbots and Phantom projectiles disabling your shields from like 10 miles away. His fast movement would be a good reason for having him as some kind of a support medic role. But even here the drell sucks, cauz the infiltrator can get this job done muuuuuch better (camooooooo!)

- The Drell is an assassin: an extremely effective single target killer. Do not charge into mobs; pick enemies off one by one.
Assassin. Well, why is he not an infiltrator then? ^^ An assissins job is to stay unseen, not rushing into the enemies like a biotic suicide commando. Why would you ever use him on gold difficulty? He dies instantly.Man, even the soldier is a better choice here.

- You can backflip or side flip away as soon as the Biotic charge hits, take advantage of this. Never allow the enemy to be able to counter attack
Enemies auto aim ruins that and not to mention that the cerberus electric knife (or whatever it is) can hit you EVEN if you are already out of range. It happens so many time in the game. And even nemesis units can no scope you one shot while running away, no matter how awesome your dashs and movements are. Atlas rocketlauncher anyone?

- The Drells evades cover the most distance, have no cooldown and you take 50% less damage while doing them. So keep moving!
ok, I see the point. But he also is the biggest target then cauz his arms and legs flattering around all over the place while doing the dash. But the 50% less damage is at least one good thing.

- The Drell is pure Hit and run, charge shotgun or heavy melee and backflip away, use Cluster grenade if you are in trouble.
hm, how else would you use a vanguard? Using a pistol or SMG?

- Stay out of enclosed spaces with the Drell any space that boxes him in is a death trap.
Counts for ALL classes especially on higher difficulties. And it's more like a generel tip how to fight the enemies if you ask me. 

- Spatial awareness is key while playing the Drell, stay near your team and always backflip towards them.
another tip how to play the game. And why would you make him a vanguard then when his only job is NOT pushing the enemies but running away like a little kid to its mommy and daddy every single time.

- Practice makes perfect, he is not easy to play but so rewarding when you figure the class out. I am easily hitting top scores with him on Silver and Gold runs.
He is one of the worst races you can pic as a vanguard. Sorry, for saying this. I'm at max level and tried different tactcis with him. I tried Gold with a good team (we made GOLD several times) and in the end I switched to the human Vanguard (who also has the NOVA ability). I asked one of my buddies who plays as a vanguard since ME2 and also confirms that he is just a bad choice for higher difficulties. At least push his barriers a bit. And why he has such random shield and health values? 
Oh and his regular melee attack is sooo pointless. Please give him a the regular faster 3 hit combo. It's a better way to stun your enemies. 
[/quote]
[/quote] 

[quote]Delta 57 Dash wrote...

Being N7 120, and having made my Drell WAY after I screwed up my Human build, I feel to need to respond to this:

[quote]CGaspur wrote...

The Drell Vanguard is a finesse class by design but is very powerful in the right hands. 
The art of playing the Drell:
- The Drell has the fastest base movement and sprint speed, take advantage of this.
[/quote]

Yes, this can be used to get back into cover.  Unfortunately, his low shields usually mean that he's half dead by the time he gets there.  Literally, on Gold difficulty, ANY ranged attack breaks his shields. ANY.

[quote]
- The Drell is an assassin: an extremely effective single target killer. Do not charge into mobs; pick enemies off one by one.
[/quote]

... no he isn't.  Drell Vanguard vs. Phantom is going to end VERY badly for the Drell.  He can charge the phantom once, then the phantom breaks his shields with hand-cannon and kills him.  Pull is useless vs. barriers, as is the grenade.  If he runs, she shoots him.  If he doesn't, her sword will end him very quickly.

[quote] 
- You can backflip or side flip away as soon as the Biotic charge hits, take advantage of this. Never allow the enemy to be able to counter attack.
[/quote]

This... is a good tip.  Drell, write this one down.

[quote] 
- The Drells evades cover the most distance, have no cooldown and you take 50% less damage while doing them. So keep moving!
[/quote]

An excellent point, but "keep moving" and "gold" are antithetical.  Moving outside of cover on gold is asking to be shot by the hordes of enemies just around the corner and continuously spawning.  After everything has spawned, sure, moving is good, but prior to that you are just ASKING to run into a fresh spawn of 2-4 phantoms + an atlas.

[quote] 
- The Drell is pure Hit and run, charge shotgun or heavy melee and backflip away, use Cluster grenade if you are in trouble.
[/quote]

Cluster grenade does nothing against anything with shields. Or Armor. Or Barrier.

[quote] 
- Stay out of enclosed spaces with the Drell any space that boxes him in is a death trap.

- Spatial awareness is key while playing the Drell, stay near your team and always backflip towards them.
[/quote]

These seem more like general "how to not be stupid" than "How to play the Drell"...

[quote] 
- Practice makes perfect, he is not easy to play but so rewarding when you figure the class out. I am easily hitting top scores with him on Silver and Gold runs.
[/quote]

I have no freaking clue how you are hitting top score on gold.  A Salarian Infiltrator should be knocking over enemies left and right, or some sniper somewhere should be getting a kill every 3-4 seconds, whereas the drell is relegated to charging isolated elites.

It might help if you posted your class build, what weapons you use, and some gameplay videos of you hitting these top scores on gold...

[/quote] 

[quote]Relix28 wrote...
I think these humans understand.
[/quote] 

Fixed. 


[quote]Berkilak wrote...

At the very least, I received this reply to my private message:

[quote]CGaspur
10:06 PM 2012-02-28
No worries you raise some very valid points. We may give him a buff [/quote][/quote]


That's not exactly filling me with confidence. 

[atheelogos]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Well, I think it's pretty clear from the feedback on the forums and from our own internal playtests that Stasis is a little too powerful, so we're considering a slight nerf to it. It won't be a huge nerf because Stasis is not nearly as effective against the other factions.

Can you give details on the nerf?

I'm guessing that if a person has shields then stasis wont hurt them but with shields down it would work like normal? Sound about right?

[IlluminaZer0]

Shin0biwan wrote...
Asaris do quite a bit of damage actually. And the problem is that if you're roll cancelling, you're losing out on a lot of damage that you could be doing, plain and simple...

Also, don't lose context. This is a Vanguard who is cancelling all of its Novas with a roll. He's literally doing no damage aside from his charges. That's not a meaningful contribution to a team.

It's not only overpowered, it's not even helpful. You reduce your damage and increase your vulnerability time without any benefit whatsoever.

I'm not going to respond to everything but this obviously caught my attention.

Positioning is everything. The difference between being caught in a cross fire with no cover and funneling enemies through a bottleneck is purely an element of relative positioning. Any fighting game fan will know that much of the meta-game is fighting for ideal relative position.

Being able to choose "when" something can damage you is a very big advantage, even without the mobile component. Being able to "tank" a missle versus having to run for cover is one obvious in-game example.

When you have teammates this becomes even more pronounced, as you do not need to do direct DPS to contribute to DPS.

Focusing purely on DPS is never a good way to gauge effectiveness. There are other ways to contribute to a team than doing damage

Addendum: This also forgets the obvious -- Buys more time for Charge.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 02 mars 2012 - 03:17 .

[The_11thDoctor]

Vanguard Drell is a joke in silver and gold. I try dodging most things, but 1 or 2 bullets drops you, your basically useless. The grenades are beastly, but thats about it... Shields need a huge boost. Id like to see someone at bioware use one on gold to show us how they thought it was a good design...