85 réponses à ce sujet

[ValentineHeart82]

When given the choice between Harrowmont and Bhelen, many make the mistake of thinking that Harrowmont is the obvious "good" choice, but even with end game consequences set aside it's really not that clear cut. Harrowmont is honest, but that's not all he is.

Harrowmont believes that the Castless should have never been born and that they do not have a right to exist. He also views other races as lesser races, looks down on outsiders, and has a strong pride in tradition and ethnic identity. He strongly believes in the cast system, and in Dwarven traditions, his honesty and 'honor' is nothing but adherence to these traditions. His character is very much that of a fascist isolationist, he's unapologetically racist and he's a right winged dogmatic.

Bhelen is power mad, he will do whatever it takes to fulfill his goals. Though he is not fascist, he is Stalinistic, he will eliminate any political rivals and anyone he's paranoid enough to perceive as a threat. He has a castless lover as a dirty little secret and he believes that the cast system is an out dated relic that needs to be done away with, a very unpopular view for a dwarf to take and one he keeps from the general public. His character is very much that of a benevolent tyrant and a globalist, he has no respect for tradition or cultural heritage and he's radically and ruthlessly progressive.

If you play as a Noble Dwarf Harrowmont may seem like the "Good" choice, and if you play as a Castless Dwarf Bhelen may seem like the "Good" choice. In reality right and wrong is not clear cut, there is no "good guy" there are only two flavors of poison. You simply pick the poison you find most palatable.

[ComTrav]

From the perspective of the point in the game where you need to choose, you are basically correct.



Knowing the endings skews things a little. (How funny is it I feel haunted by regret at some of my actions in the game? I picked the wrong King of Orzammer, and should've been a little tougher on Alistair...)

[dannythefool]

I always see the necessity of putting a king on the dwarven throne as one of the punishments for being a grey warden... it's one of those "do whatever it takes" moments, you don't even have to care about what either candidate would do as a king, you just need to pick one in the interest of stopping the blight.

[FlintlockJazz]

Also, Harrowmont coming across as good is just good PR, Bhelen is actually more honest in his activities. I actually wonder if it was Harrowmont who killed the old king and forged the letter saying he was to be king, he was the only person with him when he died after all...

[interesting03]

Harrowmont with the anvil is clearly the nutjob neo-tory choice though. Isolationist conservative with a means to force his views down your throat? Check, yep you're screwed.

[Rugaru]

why another thread on this? there are many many others. try using search....

[Anton de Staen]

"He has a castless lover as a dirty little secret"

Last time I checked, the so called "Noble hunters" are socially accepted, as children is needed very, very badly in dwarven society.

[Lucy Glitter]

I started off with Harrowmont, but after playing through the Human Commoner origin for kicks, I decided that I would use Caridin as an excuse to choose Bhelen. I didn't like the fact that Harrowmont had to die, but I think Bhelen would be a much better ruler. 

Harrowmont was always polite and humble, but he was too much a product of his upbrining, and failed to see past traditions. 

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 25 novembre 2009 - 02:43 .

[Flamin Jesus]

The problem of the Harrowmont/Bhelen decision is that unless you start out with a dwarf or already know about the ending, it's hard or almost impossible to find out who stands for what. In my first playthrough I tried to talk to as many NPCs as possible and find out what I could about the candidates. Problem is, apart from "Harrowmont is honorable" and "Bhelen has a casteless lover" (Which I only found out after I had already decided who to follow, and right before I found out that this "lover" was a crimelord), there's hardly any consistency, the town criers contradict each other and even themselves, the followers would attribute every positive to their choice and every negative to their enemy, basically it comes down to what feels less awful.

Now, this might be a realistic depiction of the cluster**** that we call politics, but it means that any non-dwarf in the game is clueless what his candidate stands for.



For example, it was only in the end-game screen that I finally found out that Harrowmont is an isolationist.

[Count Viceroy]

Haha, Yeah I remember my first time. I was an elf and I basically shrugged and picked one of them and went with it.

[Herr Uhl]

I got the impression that Harrowmont was an isolationist from the merchant outside tapsters. I went with Bhelen, but decided to backstab him just because I wanted to backstab the backstabber... Yeah.

[Count Viceroy]

When I played my noble I just couldn't pick bhelen after what he had done to me. Even though I had meta gaming knowledge and knew how useless harrowmont would be. I ****ed up my race just for the sake of revenge. Good stuff.

[FlintlockJazz]

I backstabbed Harrowmont by secretly working for Bhelen while publicly working for Harrowmont, and then backstabbed Bhelen by giving Harrowmont the crown anyway.

[Herr Uhl]

I took the option of applauding Bhelen for outdouching my noble. He played well and won the game.

[interesting03]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I backstabbed Harrowmont by secretly working for Bhelen while publicly working for Harrowmont, and then backstabbed Bhelen by giving Harrowmont the crown anyway.

Heh, did you get any special dialogue from this?

[Count Viceroy]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I took the option of applauding Bhelen for outdouching my noble. He played well and won the game.

I'm going to try this for my next run. Sounds like fun. Also my noble was female. I'm going to do a male run this time and have a son and all that. Should be extra fun.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 25 novembre 2009 - 02:56 .

[FlintlockJazz]

interesting03 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I backstabbed Harrowmont by secretly working for Bhelen while publicly working for Harrowmont, and then backstabbed Bhelen by giving Harrowmont the crown anyway.

Heh, did you get any special dialogue from this?

I don't think so.  Bhelen just went off the handle as normal, saying that outsiders should not have interfered.  Was hoping there would be, especially since Bhelen did say that he trusted since he would otherwise reveal my treachery to Harrowmont if I did anything, thought he would at least try and sell me out.

[Odd Hermit]

I did not actually know all this, like Flamin Jesus pointed out, I didn't get the whole story apparently. never knew Harrowmont was racist, just knew Bhelen's documents were forged, and that the old king favored Harrowmont despite Bhelen being his son, which is what made me side with Harrowmont.

[FlintlockJazz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I took the option of applauding Bhelen for outdouching my noble. He played well and won the game.

Is this an option you get for playing through as the dwarf noble?  Does it impact the choice of king or just some dialogue choice?

[Levowitz]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Also, Harrowmont coming across as good is just good PR, Bhelen is actually more honest in his activities. I actually wonder if it was Harrowmont who killed the old king and forged the letter saying he was to be king, he was the only person with him when he died after all...

I take it that you haven't played as a Dwarven Noble.

[Dark83]

Flamin Jesus wrote...
(Which I only found out after I had already decided who to follow, and right before I found out that this "lover" was a crimelord)

Wait, what? Rica (the Dwarven Commoner's sister) is a crimelord?

Edit: Rica.

Modifié par Dark83, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[Count Viceroy]

No? She's not. She's bhelen's concubine.

[Herr Uhl]

Dark83 wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...
(Which I only found out after I had already decided who to follow, and right before I found out that this "lover" was a crimelord)

Wait, what? Risa (the Dwarven Commoner's sister) is a crimelord?

Hey, that is my sis, hot sister at that. Want a piece of me?

[Herr Uhl]

And Jarvia had her lover in Leske, that bastard. We were supposed to be friends.

[Count Viceroy]

Meh he's a casteless crook, you have to do what you have to in order to survive down there. Makes sense.