85 réponses à ce sujet

[Recidiva]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

"Lord Harrowmont imprisoned! Awaiting execution! Epic fail!"

I don't see all the hostility against Bhelen if you're a Dwarven Noble. He bested you at the political game, and then some. My character gracefully acknowledged defeat and helped Bhelen to the throne because he wished for his family to stay on the throne.

Cheating isn't "besting."  And I don't see why I have to reward or admire it.  I'd already put Bhelen on the throne once in other games and I disliked him, particularly when he has Harrowmont executed.  Then I just disliked him extra more on account of treachery and such.  He won at his version of the political game, not mine.  I grabbed the opportunity to win at my version of the game, not his.  I happen to think cheating is cheap and easy and a sign of a weak character.  I also like stabbing things.

In his version of winning, he should have made sure I was dead.  Sloppy.  Mistake worth his life.

Modifié par Recidiva, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:23 .

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Cheating? When it comes to human politics, perhaps. But it is how dwarven politics work. He simply outplayed both me and Trian. Not like my character wasn't looking to eliminate the competition, either. Just sayin'....

[blauregen]

in my capacity as a liberal and progressive elf i would have had to support Bhelen.
In my capacity as a grey warden in need of an army however, with a rising blight and given Bhelen's method of operation ( forgery, slander, political murder,... ) he was too great a risk to take. Harrowmont as a conservative traditionalist was far less likely to try and wiggle out of ancient defense treaties than Bhelen.

Modifié par blauregen, 29 novembre 2009 - 01:30 .

[Recidiva]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Cheating? When it comes to human politics, perhaps. But it is how dwarven politics work. He simply outplayed both me and Trian. Not like my character wasn't looking to eliminate the competition, either. Just sayin'....

Hey, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.  I just don't work that way.  If you think I've lost...I'm not done yet.  That's my philosophy anyway.  Said best while pulling my axe out of Bhelen's body.  Politics is a game of moves and countermoves.  See, he can't countermove anymore.  Or move at all, for that matter.

[Vormaerin]

Ignoring the meta game information, on my non dwarf character it was pretty "obvious" that Bhelen was the better choice. Harrowmont's guy pretty much said "Publicly declare yourself for my guy and fight as his champion first. Then, if you win, my lord will deign to speak with you." Vartag just asks you to deliver some paperwork. Then you have the whole "Open up dwarven society to outside trade and change the casteless system" thing, which was pretty good sounding. And then there's the fact that all the real warriors seem to back Bhelen, while Harrowmont's guys are willing to back down on him.



Only real note of discord is the cut scene where Bhelen's guy cuts that other fellow down, but none of the dwarves seemed to think that was especially noteworthy.

[Sarethus]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Cheating? When it comes to human politics, perhaps. But it is how dwarven politics work. He simply outplayed both me and Trian. Not like my character wasn't looking to eliminate the competition, either. Just sayin'....

My character's take on this was that Bhelen made one crucial mistake. Not making sure I was dead. He should have tried to have me killed while in jail or just as I left for the Deep Roads and made sure that I wasn't breathing. He did not do that so, his mistake came back and bit him in the ass.

[Saurel]

Vormaerin wrote...

Ignoring the meta game information, on my non dwarf character it was pretty "obvious" that Bhelen was the better choice. Harrowmont's guy pretty much said "Publicly declare yourself for my guy and fight as his champion first. Then, if you win, my lord will deign to speak with you." Vartag just asks you to deliver some paperwork. Then you have the whole "Open up dwarven society to outside trade and change the casteless system" thing, which was pretty good sounding. And then there's the fact that all the real warriors seem to back Bhelen, while Harrowmont's guys are willing to back down on him.

Of course the paper work ends up turning into travel into the Deep Roads to find a dude because he daughter can't make the key decision.

[trh5001]

Grey Wardens are supposed to stay neutral and Harrowmont has the least amount of changes made to Dwarven society so I felt it was the most neutral choice. Also Bhelen is a backstabbing d***** so f-him

[ComTrav]

You can come up with some justifications for a dwarf noble supporting Bhelen. (You yourself are extracting revenge as a "long con", for example.) I could buy the "you beat at my the political game" justification if the consequences were humiliation or loss of face, but "You sent me into the deep roads without even my DLC items to die, well played, good sir!" strains credulity for me.



However, I suspect anyone playing dwarf noble their first time through the game is going to do what I do and take immense satisfaction from killing him in the assembly. (One of two game decisions I really regret, along with not telling Alistair his sister was really mean.)



The perfect foreknowledge that Harrowmont screws everything up skews things.A lot of people played the Human Noble origin--imagine if there was an in-game option to spare Arl Howe. Would you? And how would you feel if killing end up screwing over Ferelden/Highever?

[Recidiva]

ComTrav wrote...

You can come up with some justifications for a dwarf noble supporting Bhelen. (You yourself are extracting revenge as a "long con", for example.) I could buy the "you beat at my the political game" justification if the consequences were humiliation or loss of face, but "You sent me into the deep roads without even my DLC items to die, well played, good sir!" strains credulity for me.

However, I suspect anyone playing dwarf noble their first time through the game is going to do what I do and take immense satisfaction from killing him in the assembly. (One of two game decisions I really regret, along with not telling Alistair his sister was really mean.)

The perfect foreknowledge that Harrowmont screws everything up skews things.A lot of people played the Human Noble origin--imagine if there was an in-game option to spare Arl Howe. Would you? And how would you feel if killing end up screwing over Ferelden/Highever?

Why would you trust that Bhelen would send troops and not just people under orders to murder you to finish the job?  Ultimately treaties and agreements require trust.  You can't deal with someone with no honor.  Same reason why Loghain got the big shiny sword to the head. 

Fine, lie, cheat and steal in politics.  Just don't get caught.  Those guys got caught.  That means they're not as good at lying and manipulating as they think they are.  If that's the case, what else aren't they good at that they think they are? 

Modifié par Recidiva, 29 novembre 2009 - 02:44 .

[Kalcalan]

Playing as a dwarf commoner makes siding with Bhelen look like the logical thing to do.

[Stargazer86]

I played my second time through as a Dwarf Noble. He killed Trian and set me up for the murder.. Pick Behlen as king? I think not.



Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Dtelm]

Course, Harrowmont is an inefficient ruler. You put him on the throne and your actually hurting your people to get back at Bhelen, of course you probably would not know that on the first playthrough.



Lol. Convince the shaperate to allow a chantry and put harrowmont on the throne and Orzammar goes to hell in a handbasket.

[Raxtoren]

It's hard to know whats best or not for the dwarfs.

Isolation in a time of civil war and the blight, is that so wrong?

And the caste system is atleast working for the moment, taking away that could create anarchy.

[Skellimancer]

I really hate both of them and think its stupid that you have to work for either. They should have added a 3rd option to get the two idiots to fight in the Arena. I could not care less who wins.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Tsk tsk tsk. You allowed your desire for vengeance doom Orzammar with an incompetent ruler and, perhaps worst of all, ended the Clan Aeducan rule!

[Revya]

The canon ending will probably have the Dwarf Noble as king since Harrowmont makes you his sucessor

[Gold Dragon]

Dwarven Politics is a game of Moves within moves....





...within moves within moves within moves (etc....)

[Dtelm]

You are of course, revya, assuming there will be a canon ending.

[JoshieoPandar]

If you pick Harrowmount as king during the ending of text, you'll be mentioned that you've taken the crown up after Harrowmount's death. At least another Aeducan is on the throne.

[Maedryc]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Cheating? When it comes to human politics, perhaps. But it is how dwarven politics work. He simply outplayed both me and Trian. Not like my character wasn't looking to eliminate the competition, either. Just sayin'....

Well, as Recidiva said, if he didn't make sure that his brother couldn't come back and deprive him of the throne maybe he didn't really outplay you. If he did, he'd have kept the throne regardless

[ComTrav]

JoshieoPandar wrote...

If you pick Harrowmount as king during the ending of text, you'll be mentioned that you've taken the crown up after Harrowmount's death. At least another Aeducan is on the throne.

I don't recall getting this.

Are there certain ending choices you need to make? Does the decision you make at the Anvil impact this?

Being Paragon is better then being King anyway, but it's sad to see Harrowmont run Orzammer into the ground.

[Revya]

Dtelm wrote...

You are of course, revya, assuming there will be a canon ending.

Of course there is, in my game at least

[Revya]

ComTrav wrote...

JoshieoPandar wrote...

If you pick Harrowmount as king during the ending of text, you'll be mentioned that you've taken the crown up after Harrowmount's death. At least another Aeducan is on the throne.

I don't recall getting this.

Are there certain ending choices you need to make? Does the decision you make at the Anvil impact this?

Being Paragon is better then being King anyway, but it's sad to see Harrowmont run Orzammer into the ground.

If I remember you have to be his sucessor to get that,

[Naturalus]

Bhelen was clearly better and stronger ruler. Bhelen understand dwarven politics better than Harrowmount. Bhelen did what he had to stay in power. Bhelen knew that he needs reform declining dwarven society witch only had two cities left from their massive underground empire.