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[Anton de Staen]

From the perspective of my casteless, Bhelen is kickass. From the perspective of my elf mage, Harrowmont was better due to being a traditionalist like himself. From the perspective of my human noble, Bhelen was win, due to not only being the rightful king (In terms of blood) but also due to his willingness to aid the Grey Warden cause. Harrowmont was a bit too unwilling.

[W1slicer_carolina]

It's probably been said. But I think it really is Black + White. In terms of what our western modern world considers to be "good values" and "right action," then Bhel is the only choice that can be considered "good." Power mad or not, the pursuit of power is not in itself an evil thing, rather it is how that power is ultimately used which determines whether it is good or bad.

Bhel might appear to be bad because of what he's done to achieve power, but ultimately he used his power to deliver his people from the yoke of the caste system, and then to lead them into a brighter future.

Harrow for the most part uses some form of honesty and of course his own sense of honor to achieve the throne, and he is pretty gracious about it in the end. However, he uses his power to pretty much oppress his people and keep them dead-locked in a perpetual system of isolation and backwards tradition, at least in the terms of our modern values and philosophies.

Though it should probably be noted that the dwarfs themselves, or at least many of them would support the caste system and be outraged by it's disolution, which as I recall happens in the epilogue, and Bhel basically forces the issue, though yet again this is sometimes what is required of a leader, to take a specific path and if necessary drag their people along, kicking and screaming if necessary.

At the core of this problem is the age old issue of whether it is better to do evil in order to achieve good, though almost always it is explained that it is a tainted good, not a real good. In this case, I think we have to say that Bhel does achieve a "real good," despite whatever evil he's done to get there, though in terms of evil action, what he has done to get there is not that evil. While on the other hand, Harrow does not directly do evil through is actions, but the consequences of those actions is certainly not what anyone would probably consider to be a "good" outcome for the dwarfs.

Sorry for the wall of text, hope this does something for someone, I have to admit I probably wouldn't read such a long post that's stuck at the back of four or so pages.

Modifié par W1slicer_carolina, 29 novembre 2009 - 03:10 .

[Recidiva]

W1slicer_carolina wrote...

It's probably been said. But I think it really is Black + White. In terms of what our western modern world considers to be "good values" and "right action," then Bhel is the only choice that can be considered "good." Power mad or not, the pursuit of power is not in itself an evil thing, rather it is how that power is ultimately used which determines whether it is good or bad.

Bhel might appear to be bad because of what he's done to achieve power, but ultimately he used his power to deliver his people from the yoke of the caste system, and then to lead them into a brighter future.

Harrow for the most part uses some form of honesty and of course his own sense of honor to achieve the throne, and he is pretty gracious about it in the end. However, he uses his power to pretty much oppress his people and keep them dead-locked in a perpetual system of isolation and backwards tradition, at least in the terms of our modern values and philosophies.

At the core of this problem is the age old issue of whether it is better to do evil in order to achieve good, though almost always it is explained that it is a tainted good, not a real good. In this case, I think we have to say that Bhel does achieve a "real good," despite whatever evil he's done to get there, though in terms of evil action, what he has done to get there is not that evil. While on the other hand, Harrow does not directly do evil through is actions, but the consequences of those actions is certainly not what anyone would probably consider to be a "good" outcome for the dwarfs.

Sorry for the wall of text, hope this does something for someone, I have to admit I probably wouldn't read such a long post that's stuck at the back of four or so pages.

As far as Bhelen doing well, I think that's just Bhelen saying he's doing well and nobody able to dissent.

I can understand lying to demons and manipulating circumstances.  I don't see murder and lies and chaos and forced rule as a good thing.  Wrenching the world to your image and stomping in short boots on those who dissent isn't the brightest possible future.  He's Loghain with a beard.  Considering the amount of intricate unweaving it takes to figure out what's actually going on considering his manufactured lies and all the treasury spent on extortion and bribery and corruption for his own personal underground playground, I don't buy it.  Not for a minute.

I do think it's evil.  I do think it could be better.  This game can't fictionally make up endings that have nothing to do with real history.

[Axterix]

ComTrav wrote...

The perfect foreknowledge that Harrowmont screws everything up skews things.A lot of people played the Human Noble origin--imagine if there was an in-game option to spare Arl Howe. Would you? And how would you feel if killing end up screwing over Ferelden/Highever?

Well, actually, if there had been a good Warden logic reason to spare to Howe, yeah, I'd have done it.  Wouldn't have liked doing it, but I'd have done it.  But there wasn't, so instead I took immense satisfaction in telling him I'm going to kill his wife and son too.  Character would have done it, but she definitely told him she was going to.

That said, how the two backstories are presented makes a difference. 

With the human noble, you've got a loving family.  Your father, mother, brother, sister in law, and nephew.  Nice little family get together scene.  And he kills all but one of those.  And slaughters everyone in your keep.  In short, everyone beyond the level of an acquaintance, other than your brother, who is most likely dead to darkspawn.  And then he tells you what he did as he killed your father and mother as well.

Now, Bhelen, he played your older brother against you, tried to play you against him.  The older brother is a bit of a jerk and you are given reasons to dislike him (though that pesky legless orphan should get a job.)  Pretty much just went for the 2 people directly in the way.  So, no, as far as just the backstory goes, cannot say I really had as much anger at Bhelen as at Howe.  But, unfortunately for Bhelen, my dwarf noble is a very eye for an eye, rule of law type of guy.  So Bhelen will pay and dwarven traditions will continue, as is right and proper.

Modifié par Axterix, 29 novembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[Raxtoren]

wait, this is just what I said about Morrigan.

If you lived with a screwed up witch, and turns into one, does that make you really "evil"? and is it your own fault?

They say in the intro for the Dwarf Noble that in Orzammar among the nobles, assassination and blackmail are very common. Its not like Bhelen started it, he is one of the players, he is however the only "obvious" one in the game, doesnt mean there are plenty of Bhelens out there.



Also, Bhelen is entitled to the right of the crown, he is the last of the Aeducan(if you dont play noble) just as Alistair are, or should Alistair have no right to be king because for ex if Loghain claimed that Maric made him swore never to crown Alistair?

[SupidSeep]

ComTrav wrote...

JoshieoPandar wrote...

If you pick Harrowmount as king during the ending of text, you'll be mentioned that you've taken the crown up after Harrowmount's death. At least another Aeducan is on the throne.

I don't recall getting this.

Are there certain ending choices you need to make? Does the decision you make at the Anvil impact this?

Being Paragon is better then being King anyway, but it's sad to see Harrowmont run Orzammer into the ground.

I didn't get the ending as JoshieoPandar said either.

I don't get the idea that Harrowmont actually ran Orzammer into the ground, more that his style of ruling does not work well in getting needed things done.  IMO it reflects a bit on the modern democratic government - unless it is an unspoken one-party rule, you spend a lot of time deadlocked in arguing and voting.

(P.S. : I think democracy is a great form of government, but only if the average citizen is sensible as a rule, which in practice they aren't.  In the absense of a intelligent populace, I think a benevolent dictatorship works better.   Anyone played Deus Ex and remember what the AI entitiy Helios said about democratic goverment?)

I do agree with ComTrav that a Paragon is a better that a King.  The Assembly is honor-bound to follow a Paragon's decisions so you have the equivalance of a dictatorship.  When it is a tyrannical or a benevolent one is up to your PC.

[Herr Uhl]

Raxtoren wrote...
Also, Bhelen is entitled to the right of the crown, he is the last of the Aeducan(if you dont play noble) just as Alistair are, or should Alistair have no right to be king because for ex if Loghain claimed that Maric made him swore never to crown Alistair?

Well, not really no. Blood lineage is not as important to being on the throne. The king is chosen, not born.

Being born by a king is an asset when trying to become one though.

[SupidSeep]

Axterix wrote...

Now, Bhelen, he played your older brother against you, tried to play you against him.  The older brother is a bit of a jerk and you are given reasons to dislike him (though that pesky legless orphan should get a job.)  Pretty much just went for the 2 people directly in the way.  So, no, as far as just the backstory goes, cannot say I really had as much anger at Bhelen as at Howe.  But, unfortunately for Bhelen, my dwarf noble is a very eye for an eye, rule of law type of guy.  So Bhelen will pay and dwarven traditions will continue, as is right and proper.

The thing that tipped my Dwarf Noble to work against Bhelan is the letter from the father and the account from Gorim on the way he wasted away.  Up til that time, my Dwarf Noble had a wry appreciation of Bhelan's play and was ready to left him be (after all, she had no interest in the throne from the get-go and would not have went against Trian).  However, one read of the letter and she swore on the Aeducan Family Shield that Bhelan would pay for it.

And it was a nice shield too - she wore it all the way to the final battle.

Modifié par SupidSeep, 29 novembre 2009 - 03:43 .

[Recidiva]

Raxtoren wrote...

wait, this is just what I said about Morrigan.
If you lived with a screwed up witch, and turns into one, does that make you really "evil"? and is it your own fault?
They say in the intro for the Dwarf Noble that in Orzammar among the nobles, assassination and blackmail are very common. Its not like Bhelen started it, he is one of the players, he is however the only "obvious" one in the game, doesnt mean there are plenty of Bhelens out there.

Also, Bhelen is entitled to the right of the crown, he is the last of the Aeducan(if you dont play noble) just as Alistair are, or should Alistair have no right to be king because for ex if Loghain claimed that Maric made him swore never to crown Alistair?

Human beings have choices.  They're not copies.  You're either a human being who knows right from wrong and can figure out that what your parents or Chantry or favorite song or book said or did weren't the only or best options, or you are basically just a minion.  I can't really deal with her other than as Flemeth's minion. 

Ask about all her childhood antics and even though she desperately wants that mirror, she will defend Flemeth's response and then dislike you if you disagree on any of Flemeth's methodology or theory.  She might have been forced or intimidated into her first sip of Kool-Aid, but now Kool-Aid is her favoritest drink.  That's sad, but that's not what every adult does.  She still chose.  LOTS of humans grow up with horrific upbringing and then choose to do things differently once out of their backgrounds, and go about learning how if they are no good at being decent human beings yet.  They seek out role models and start practicing different ways of doing things.  Morrigan never chose to do that.  She never gave any other way of thinking or doing things a chance.

There are people who become minions because they lack the personal ego strength or reason or experience to do so.  And that's sad.  But becoming an adult is a struggle of those issues.  Granted, Morrigan had a whopping lot of issues, but she seemed to choose to follow Flemeth.  She has to live or die on the basis of those choices.  Same as everyone else.  Nobody gets a pass unless they're of severely diminished mental capacity and truly can't choose.  But she's chosen.  Whether it's sad because she lost the battle of wills or it's admirable that she pulled strength from horror, doesn't matter.  She still has to deal with the consequences of her attitude and actions, like everyone else.  And blaming everyone else for it as she does...doesn't cut it.

[GhostMatter]

I think this part of the game is actually pretty good(putting Deep Roads aside) except for the fact that it's near impossible to get info on the candidates. If my Dalish has known the ending, being someone that wants the best for everyone, he would've supported Bhelen. But.. not knowing, Bhelen's ways were too wrong. Falsifying papers, etc.? No, sorry. It's too bad, I wanted the better ending for my first game. Oh well, 5 at least to go

I rate this thread 5 stars.

Modifié par GhostMatter, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:50 .

[ValentineHeart82]

GhostMatter wrote...

I think this part of the game is actually pretty good(putting Deep Roads aside) except for the fact that it's near impossible to get info on the candidates. If my Dalish has known the ending, being someone that wants the best for everyone, he would've supported Bhelen. But.. not knowing, Bhelen's ways were too wrong. Falsifying papers, etc.? No, sorry. It's too bad, I wanted the better ending for my first game. Oh well, 5 at least to go

I rate this thread 5 stars.

There are all kinds of signs about what a dirty underbelly Harrowmont has, but most people don't notice on their first playthrough. On the surface Harrowmont seems like a good person, and even though Bhelen is most likely the best man for the job he seems utterly evil. Listen to rumors, ask around, look around, and ignore your gut.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:53 .