101103 réponses à ce sujet

[s8383783]

So guys if the game did take the indoctrination route...Would that be ok? Or would the outrage continue...I'm just wondering if indoctrination is a well liked or supported theory.
Isn't there still the point of us getting an unfinished game?

[Prudii Aden]

Ramshakkle wrote...

Interesting, IE's the one not loading for me, just checked FF and that did load.

And for the record, if it does turn out this was all planned before hand, gotta say this. I'll admit to liking the concept of the alternate reality game, even kept up with Bungie and MS's IRIS campaign for Halo 3 through its length. But for the love of all that is holy, it should be before the game launches rather than inadvertently hurting and pissing off a lot of people.

Indeed - the concept is a good idea, however, should the ending in the release copy not be the real ending, then why in Hades did they ship an incomplete build of the game?

There's also the whole issue of reputational damage if that is the case, not to mention the field day the press could have regarding the shipping of an incomplete game. That's before (at least as far as the UK goes) things like the Trade Descriptions Act comes into play, or at least the rumour of a breach of the Act...

[Ramshakkle]

Matthias Silverblade wrote...

Don't worry, you're in good hands here. Most if not all of us felt similarly. Will get better, don't worry.

And topics coming up time and time again? Gee, that doesn't sound familiar.

(Tali not trivial!)

[Esker02]

s8383783 wrote...

So guys if the game did take the indoctrination route...Would that be ok? Or would the outrage continue...I'm just wondering if indoctrination is a well liked or supported theory.
Isn't there still the point of us getting an unfinished game?

For some that would continue to be a problem. I, for one, would be fine so long as they then went on to finish it (paid or unpaid, I don't care, honestly). In fact, it would be a compromise between our ideal solution (total rewrite) and for what I'm sure is their own (leave it be).

[Fox544]

RogueAngel0 wrote...

Sarz91 wrote...

TIAX RULES ALL posted:

I am making this post in an honest attempt to help people understand and appreciate the endings more. I personally feel after reading posts here and hearing from friends that, most of this anger over the endings is caused because they did not see the over 4000 asset "destroy" option ending.

I hope to make a complete and easy explanation of the ending, comment if you think I need to adjust or add to it.
This post does not apply to those who just don't like it because of its lack of detailed epilogue.

First of all there is one ending that is the real ending and all other endings are tricks and illusions. In fact the only REAL ending in the whole game is if you pick the destroy option with over 4000 assets. The real ending is only that 20 seconds they show of Shepard in the rubble and then takes a breath.

That (supposed to be) eye opening moment is supposed to tell you that Shepard was never on the Citadel. He lies just where he was knocked out by the destroyer blast, in the rubble of London. This is where the confusion takes place.

Everything that happens after the destroyer hits Shepard during his charge is a combination of a dying Shepard's hallucinations and reaper indoctrination trying to take over. Right after the blast, Shepard wakes with his armor half blown off. This is not just cut scene fubar, this is the start of his indoctrination fight when everything is slightly off, as in a dream (because it is)

If you listen to the radio chatter before Shepard goes into the beam, you can hear allied forces saying that NOBODY made it to the beam, not you and not Anderson before you. This is the real world radio chatter now in the background subconscious of this hallucination.

After he reaches the Citadel there is more oddness that should be setting off triggers for the player that something is not right, that this is an illusion... Anderson describes shifting walls and only ever agrees with Shep on his surroundings after Shep describes his and saying "like the collector base you described". Everything is just a projection from Shepard's mind and subconscious.

When you are having the conversation with TIM and Anderson, It's all just again Sheps subconscious reminding himself and the player about indoctrination and what happens when you stop fighting it... you lose control (shoot Anderson) This is similar to the nightmares Shep has of the boy. This is the game through Shep's subconscious telling you do not follow the kid, you will burn (kid goes up in flames). And the last one when you see she with the kid and they both burn. Again telling you, no matter what happens you will get burned by trusting the kid.

There are more allusions to not trusting Cerberus/reapers throughout the game as well. You really start to see them after you understand the indoctrination ending. For example: TIM talking to Kai Lang says "Shepard was always going to stay true to his ideals" subtlety suggesting that the player should do the same and not let TIM/reapers compromise you destroying the reapers. The goal you have had since the very beginning. Also before the attack on Cerberus base I believe, there is a quantum comm. call between you and Hackett. You have the option of saying something like "what if TIM is right and the reapers CAN be controlled" and Hackett shoots you down. Gives you a direct order to kill TIM and destroy reapers. No questions asked. Once again, game trying to remind you of the one true goal and keep you focused.

Now about the Catalyst and the crucible conversation and decision itself... By this time indoctrination is very close to taking over. The end is near. The catalyst looks like the little boy because of shep's subconscious and indoctrination is feeding off that. Everything in this scene is A LIE. The choices and how they are presented to you are all part of the deception to get Shepard to give his mind into indoctrination and lose the will to fight it.

You are presented first with the destroy option. He says "I KNOW you have been thinking of destroying us but..." The catalyst is scared, knows that its only chance is to manipulate Shepard here and now. It's painted in renegade red to through you off. This is purposefully done to manipulate Shepard's decision to fight. He tells you all synthetic life will be wiped out, including Geth and including Shepard because he is partially cybernetic himself. In sales you always present the worst option first and the best for last. So the next 2 options can then be presented and made more appealable.

the other 2 options do not let you ever see Shepard "alive" at the end so to me BOTH of these options are fails and result in you being indoctrinated and/or dying right there on the streets of London. Without that last breath scene. There can be no happy ending. I will elaborate on them a bit more separately.

Synthesis was in the middle and last option presented, this is what they ultimately want. He even likened the synthesis to husks in his description. The reapers want to harvest organics and change them into hybrids. By choosing synthesis you would be doing their work for them in an instant. Basically I see this as total fail ending, you have been played.

Now the control option was not presented as prominently as the synthesis but was still painted in paragon blue and offered as an option still better then destroy. In the end the result for choosing this is the same behind the scenes. Shepard gave into indoctrination/death and you do not get the breath tidbit.

So if you choose destroy like I believe we are somewhat intended to, remember that the explosion cut scene and relays exploding and Normandy running/crashing ALL OF THAT IS STILL HALLUCINATION. This is Shepard's subconscious imagining a "happy ending" he imagines reapers destroyed, earth fighters celebrating, and he imagines and ending for companions. The lush new planet-scape is just a metaphor for starting over and them being at peace. That's why immediately after they show Shep waking up, to solidify the dream idea.

At that point you are supposed to start thinking about what really happened. Shepard is alive, on Earth, has conquered indoctrination. Another HUGE thing is that after destroying the reapers you were supposed to be dead. Recalling the little boy "you will die as you are partly synthetic". When you wake up after that in the rubble, it should be a clear indication that you have been lied to. You did not die like the boy said you would, he just said that to dissuade you. The rest is left even more ambiguous but...

I personally believe that Shepard's job ended there. His companions who followed him at the last rush are dead beside him not suddenly on the Normandy and suddenly in a new system living happily ever after. That only happens in dreams He gathered the forces needed to beat the reapers. And it's the allied forces of the galaxy that ultimately stop the reapers. And that force would never have been formed without Shepard. As the stargazer after the credits says "the details have been lost to history" and there is still "one more story" to tell. So even though Shep was never on the citadel, the idea that Shep is a legend and is credited in destroying the reapers is true.

Love it or hate it, I whole heartedly believe that we will see DLC in the future that will start with Shepard taking that breath in the rubble. It will be something like Waking up after beating indoctrination and actually concluding the story in a more definitive way. And possibly a lot more "happy" though I'm more interested in "real" then some contrived happiness.



TL;DR (oh come on read above, its good
2 parts, first everything that happens between Shepard getting hit by the destroyer eye blast during the London charge and the "take a breath" scene (that you only get by choosing correct choices and having high enough EMF) Is a hallucination/indoctrination process that Shepard is fighting in his head.


There is only one real ending, the ending you have been groomed for since the beginning. Destroy the reapers at all costs. All other endings that do not have Shepard alive at the end are lies. They are illusions and means that Shepard gave into indoctrination and never awoke back on earth to realize this. And the player doesn't understand.

All the supposed plot holes can be explained by this. See examples above. Ask me questions if you have them, I will try to clarify for you in comments.

Also if you would rather watch 3 minutes of youtube, this is a rather good but not totally complete ending explaination. I approve


FINAL NOTE
I love this ending because of what Bioware did. They actually indoctrinated their own customers. They made and ending where you the player play through a real-time indoctrination of not just your character but of the player. They presented the ending in such a way that you had to fight indoctrination right along with Shepard. The game actively tries to fool you and manipulate your decisions away from the "best" and ONLY true ending, this is no typical ending by any shot and they did this KNOWING that their fan base might not understand it and take what they showed us at face value. Those people will never get why their ending doesn't make sense and will be angry unnecessarily. For those like myself though. I feel like it's a twist worthy of the best games/movies out there and that some ambiguity is better than the spelled out epilogue slideshow at the end.

That all sounds legit and cool, but whilst we may be wrong, (and whilst the evidance supports you) you could also be wrong. But I really-really hope you're right.

Even if thats true (and I don't believe it for an instant) doesn't that mean Bioware sold us half a game? Mass Effect is supposted to be a trilogy so they can't continue in a 4 unless they annouce it as a saga and releasing DLC to give us the real ending means we bought have a game at full price.

[Nefelius]

s8383783 wrote...

So guys if the game did take the indoctrination route...Would that be ok? Or would the outrage continue...I'm just wondering if indoctrination is a well liked or supported theory.
Isn't there still the point of us getting an unfinished game?

It's plotholed within itself due to lack of facts, really.

[LazarusMP]

Child's Play up to $9483.03!!

[jerobolod]

Matthias Silverblade wrote...

Oh no.

I just finished my first playthrough, after deliberately avoiding the internet so as not to be spoiled. I had no idea what would happen. I had heard about a petition to change 'the ending' but didn't care about it because, Bioware being Bioware, there would be different endings depending on your choices. I always complete all the missions and take care of my squadmates, I was sure I'd be able to defeat the Reapers, have a big party with friends old and new, and then take a holiday with Liara somewhere warm and peaceful.

Boy was I wrong. I didn't expect the condescending little speech from the Reaper Boy for a start. Harbinger, maybe. One last attempt to intimidate me before I sent the Reapers to hell. But not some magical boy who, Battlestar Galactica-style, blames organic life for the machines going psycho. Then the Deus Ex: Human Revolution style 'press a button to get an ending'. What the hell? Wasn't I playing Mass Effect? Was this made by Bioware? It is like they threw everything out the window. What happened to the consequences for all the choices I had made?

I stayed loyal to the whole series plotline (destroy the Reapers) and chose that option. Seeing Shepard engulfed in a fireball instead of leaping onto a waiting Normandy like in ME2 was a little upsetting, then finding out the Normandy was for no reason at all flying through a Mass Relay (with the Prothean guy on board! What the hell, he was on Earth!) and crash landing on some alien planet. WHY DID THEY DO THIS? They said ME3 would be the end of Shepard's saga. What, are they doing a Mass Effect 4: Shepard's Crew now?

I don't know any more, it seems like a complete mess and a betrayal of the series and the fans. Dragon Age II was pretty bad in how the ending was pretty much the same no matter how you played, but at least it had a resolution with the promise of more to come. Mass Effect 3... no resolution (at least, none which paid respect to the established continuity), no more to come (so what if you hear Shepard take a gasp of breath? Bioware have told us ITS OVER. I think they put that in just to rub salt into the wound).

This was exactly what happened to me. Right down to the "Internet petition to change the ending? It can't be that bad. Oh wait, it is..."

Also, the next game is obviously going to Mass Effect 4: Planet of the Yogs! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!*

*Unless someone else posted it first.

[LethesDeep]

Nilofeliu wrote...

ShadowJ20 wrote...

Anyone miss out on this Kotaku link?

http://kotaku.com/58...as-so-terrible/

Wasn't the first Kotaku article against us and in favor of Bioware???

Did they change their minds?

Yes they did. Though their original articles were written with little to no research on what we were saying and by people who hadn't finished the game. Now that they have beaten it and done some research... well, it makes them look a lot less ignorant and arrogant.

[Ramshakkle]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Ramshakkle wrote...

Interesting, IE's the one not loading for me, just checked FF and that did load.

And for the record, if it does turn out this was all planned before hand, gotta say this. I'll admit to liking the concept of the alternate reality game, even kept up with Bungie and MS's IRIS campaign for Halo 3 through its length. But for the love of all that is holy, it should be before the game launches rather than inadvertently hurting and pissing off a lot of people.

Indeed - the concept is a good idea, however, should the ending in the release copy not be the real ending, then why in Hades did they ship an incomplete build of the game?

There's also the whole issue of reputational damage if that is the case, not to mention the field day the press could have regarding the shipping of an incomplete game. That's before (at least as far as the UK goes) things like the Trade Descriptions Act comes into play, or at least the rumour of a breach of the Act...

Witholding the ending really ISN'T a good idea. Sounds like a brilliant marketing plan, but like you said, the loyalty results would/currently are horrific. ARGs should be done before a game launches as a way to intrigue the fanbase and build hype. But to try and piece together the ending off relatively slim evidence? Terrible plan in actuality, no matter how interesting it is in concept.

[Ffelan]

Don't know if this was up here yet, but just found this.

http://www.g4tv.com/...fect-3-wrap-up/

Adam Sessler from G4tv comments on ME3 and the ending plus other ME3 stuff.

[ReapersSniper]

I think I'll trade in all my mass effect crap and use the money to make a donation!

[jerobolod]

Ffelan wrote...

Don't know if this was up here yet, but just found this.

http://www.g4tv.com/...fect-3-wrap-up/

Adam Sessler from G4tv comments on ME3 and the ending plus other ME3 stuff.

I wonder if that bit at the beginning with the green/red/blue shots of the feet was intentional....

[Dj14365]

s8383783 wrote...

So guys if the game did take the indoctrination route...Would that be ok? Or would the outrage continue...I'm just wondering if indoctrination is a well liked or supported theory.
Isn't there still the point of us getting an unfinished game?

I can't speak for everyone but I support the theory. Granted in no way do i believe nor will I ever believe that this was just an elaborate plan by BW to make more money. I think they fudged up the ending (singular) and people are trying to lay the groundwork for a plan to rectify their mistake without making BW admit they messed up this bad. The indoctrination theory at this time is the most logical solution presented.

[Bubi7]

No, your choices on ME1 and ME2 actually DO matter.
you just can reunite geth and quarians if both legion and tali survived ME2, made both loyal, did not blow up the heretic geth base, gave the evidence about tali's dad the court and whatnot.
you just can cure the genophage if you saved the research data from mordins guy, and did not destroy it.
you get biotic teens and jack if jack survived, her as war asset (and meet her at the purgatory)
dunno about the fate of the collector base, though
The choices influence your ME3 gameplay, but ...Thing is, they do NOT influence the ending at all, either you saved all people in ME2 or whatever not, your choice is just between three (or two) different flavours of space magic.

[Terumitsu]

Just finished reading through the bulk of this beast of a thread and I have to say it warms my heart to see the BSN community coming together like this. It's a total 180 to the nearly acidic atmosphere that was around before I went on my ME3 blackout a few months back.

But yes, over 1000 pages and still going strong!

Hold The Line!

[Sky Grey Hawk]

s8383783 wrote...

So guys if the game did take the indoctrination route...Would that be ok? Or would the outrage continue...I'm just wondering if indoctrination is a well liked or supported theory.
Isn't there still the point of us getting an unfinished game?

That would depend on how they handled the supposed "real ending" DLC. If we got it for free then I wouldn't see a problem with it. But if we had to pay for it well then.... to put it nicely, the raging would continue.

[Asharad Hett]

Thanks for the "Child's Play" link. I've added $5. I feel guilty for not giving more, and for being goaded into charitable donation by a crappy ending.

[RatedRRachel]

Don't know if this has been posted yet... have the greatest respect for him, but wonder what his feelings would be if he did play the game -

http://www.gameranx....es-conclusion/ 

[COSMIC SAMURAI]

Man, This has been growing and growing and getter more media attention since it started. I hope that Bioware does make up for the ending and give fan service for us who don't like the stupid endings

[MaSTA_SoLIDUS]

Am I the only person who, after reading the theory put forward--the basic indoctrination theory (in any form)--still thinks the initial ending and emotions it caused were awe inspiring?

I had literally no expectations in every Mass Effect. I've played every one, for a total of over 500 hours now. I was invested in every character I had contact with in the game.

But the end, as is, was beautiful to me. Before I knew anything about the indoctrination, I knew that the war had changed Shepard. How it changed him I didn't know. I saw him being distraught. I saw paragon responses being received negatively by crew-mates, and renegade being seen as resolute.

The changes, the dreams...before I knew of the ending I wasn't trying to make sense of it in a meta-gaming way, I was trying to resolve things within the context of what Shepard could know.

Now, I see that Shepard was dealing with indoctrination by Harbinger. It's almost certain. The hum in the Normandy that we couldn't hear means the whole crew was dealing with a level of it, but Shepard was more affected than any because he was more important and because he had mroe contact with Reaper technology.

Even so, if we are all just bringing elements together that have nothing to do with each other, the end satisfied me because it would summarize the journey in a simple statement: you can't save everyone.

...am I the only person that was happy BEFORE hearing the Indoctrination theory?

[Alamandorious]

QwibQwib wrote...

Nefelius wrote...

The Child's play is certainly a brilliant idea. With all the bitterness around the game it's the only thing that comforts me seeing the unity it brought and it will actually end up good in any way.

If I had $$ i'd def donate, if it's still up i'll donate :]

It's still up

[Chatboy 91]

Up another $2000 in donations in 2 hours. Awesome.

EDIT: SCRATCH THAT, $2200.

Modifié par Chatboy 91, 14 mars 2012 - 01:05 .

[Matt125]

Just donated to Child's Play because I wanted to end my day with something positive after this crushing disappointment.