101103 réponses à ce sujet

[Nordicus]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Deus Ex worked because it was a single game, it was hard to get invested in supporting characters (or even the main character) and the VA work was still poor enough that emotions were fairly meaningless. It was great, but that's besides the point.

It's seems like Bioware just picked a game that is critical darling and worked off of that, instead of making something new.

Let's not forget that in Deus Ex, you were constantly questioning authority and doing business with more morally ambiguous people almost from the get-go. ME1 and 2 show Shepard as this magnificent space super hero who can make the impossible happen and walk victoriously after every struggle.

There's a big mood dissonance here in my opinion

[rockstyle6]

chuckles471 wrote...

O.K, I am in total denial.  Tin (aluminium for the north american breathern) foil hat time.

EA do your magic and get them to dumb down the ending, like you do with gameplay(Syndicate FPS, why god why).  Think of the lost customers, money you like that?

I want my good ending.  This isn't the Sopranos where the writer wants us to think about what happens next.  I put hours in and I want a medal given to me by a princess.  Not stranded on some planet so I can do sucide by self plesure.

I started mass effect 2 from the start when tali died in the sucide mission(the minute she died-keyboard hit wall).  It caused me to do all that rubbish mining just so nobody would die.

If that how it ends I can't see the point of doing any of the side missions because you might aswell die.

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Why did I read those spoilers.  Ignorance is bliss.

Dont need to say more .

[Sia_Sinblade]

RiouHotaru wrote...

 A few things stand out to me as being rather suspicious about this entire situation, one that leads me to believe otherwise regarding the validity of Tank and Xio's information.

- Contradiction of sources
There were several points at which both Tank and Xio's information failed to line up.  Tank said MP was absolutely necessary for one of the endings.  He also somehow mistook Hackett for Anderson.  Tank said there were only three endings.  The interview with Mac Walters says there's six endings.  Novem says the Prima guide states SEVEN endings, including two "perfect" endings (one of which was the one everyone wants to exist).  Xio stated three endings with three variations each.

- Inconsistency of sources
Tank is a tester who was fired for breaking his NDA by speaking about the game and showing pictures.  How did he suddenly know more about the game after having only been a tester back in November?  Xio is someone who proved he and his "wife" got two copies via the Space Edition.  Xio claimed to be under an NDA as well, but started becoming lax for no reason once Tank started "spoiling" the endings.  On top of that, for someone claiming to be on an NDA, he still "confirmed" certain portions of the story.  However, the only screenshots we have are of his copies of the game, and supposedly a picture of the credits being played.

At no point does he ever show any part of the game we haven't already seen.  And what he has told us is simply more detail on parts we already knew existed.  It's been told to me that "enforcing" an NDA is near impossible, and not everyone who went in to get the Space Edition signed the affidavt for the NDA.  If this is true, there's really nothing to stop him from trying to post videos or screenshots.  And Tank's screenshots only prove that he was a tester.

In general, this is the point at which we should be able to get tangible evidence, and yet none has been provided to us.  Xio claims NDA when he feels like it, but continues to spoil anyway, leaving me to question the validity of his statements.  There's also the fact they both seem to release "more" information based on what the other person gives out.

- Inconsistency of Material
It's been stated before as a point of contention that everything we've heard seems to run diametrically opposite of what Bioware is known for.  The endings are only minor variations on each other, and there exists no "perfect" ending, a la ME2.  This after a proven track record of games in which endings are both distinct, and "optimal" endings do exist.

"
There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that,"

"There are many ways to end Shepard’s story, right? I wouldn’t necessarily say ending Shepard’s story means one thing or the other, like life or death or whatever."

"As in the previous games, you’ll make a decision and you’ll see the outcome - and there are huge risks to all of those decisions. It’s not cut and dry,"

www.nowgamer.com/news/1230154/mass_effect_3_ending_shepards_story_not_necessarily_life_or_death.html

So we have a game where people (specifically BSN) claim "our decisions do not matter" and "endings aren't different, only slight variations" on each other.  Which runs counter to what is an established pattern of behavior in Bioware's previous titles, hell, even within their own franchise.  It seems highly suspicious to make us believe that this pattern exists for the first two games, then suddenly turn it inside-out and 180 degrees around for the finale, without any warning or sign that such a change was coming.

- Patterns in Information
As someone pointed out in my own thread, both Xio and Tank's information is practically identical to the first early leak, with a few exceptions (such as the Prothean no longer being vital to plot advancement).  This seems odd considering that the script would've undergone a large number of alterations (even if only minor ones) between then and now.  Now you might wonder: "But shouldn't it follow that what they tell us is what we know?"  And you might be right.  But it also smells of foul play.  After all, the easiest way of propogating misinformation would be for your "information" to be internally consistent with what is already "common knowledge"

For the record, back during ME2?  We had someone from SA claiming to have played the game as well, and I believe there was a spoiler group back then as well.  While they got some of the information correct (Prothean/Collector connection) other portions were dead wrong (Samara is an LI).  And while Xio claims to have "checked the game's files", he took only an hour or so.  BSN's famous user Diddy took weeks, months even to meticulously sweep ME2's files and found scads of information and dialog.  I don't believe that Xio's brief skimming would be nearly thurough enough to turn up anything.

In short, there are too many things that stand out.  I'm not saying Xio is part of some conspiracy, but it's clear that even his information is suspect, considering his own inability to get his facts straight.  Tank is, simply put, an Unreliable Narrator.  I have no doubt they are both accurate on perhaps some parts, but then we're already aware of those things (TIM, The Crucible, etc).  However, despite his personable and friendly attitude, I believe that he may not have the best intentions when it comes to his "sharing the experience."

Well made points.

However...people like to forget that this is as much BioWare's story as it is "ours" Throughout ME1 and 2 you only got 1 real ending with alterations to the theme.

ME1 = Saren/Reaper destroyed , alteration: Council lives or dies
ME2 = Collector's are defeated/purged, human reaper destroyed , alteration: save the base or not and who dies

It is feasible to think that the writers at BW have a specific ending in mind. One that suits their idea of how the trilogy should end. After all, most writers write their own stories, not the stories they are told to write by fans.

That being said, it should be stated that an ending that has no "hope", in it for the main protagonist, is incredibly difficult to sell. Like I mentioned earlier, I remember Divinity 2 and how shocked I was, even outraged. Nothing you did in the game could change the outcome. You always lost.

So...in summary, your points are valid, but I can still see these endings being the real thing.

[Tietj]

rad77 wrote...

Tietj wrote...

rad77 wrote...

well i've seen a few screens from the ending and in one of them shepherd (i hope its him:P) is standing on some bluish planet with a kid near him, so i guess he wont end up alone ;p

That's not Shepard.

oh well, bummer

who is it then?

Some random guy from the future telling his grandson stories about "The Shepard" (or "The Shepherd," perhaps by this point)

[RiouHotaru]

chuckles471 wrote...

O.K, I am in total denial.  Tin (aluminium for the north american breathern) foil hat time.

EA do your magic and get them to dumb down the ending, like you do with gameplay(Syndicate FPS, why god why).  Think of the lost customers, money you like that?

I want my good ending.  This isn't the Sopranos where the writer wants us to think about what happens next.  I put hours in and I want a medal given to me by a princess.  Not stranded on some planet so I can do sucide by self plesure.

I started mass effect 2 from the start when tali died in the sucide mission(the minute she died-keyboard hit wall).  It caused me to do all that rubbish mining just so nobody would die.

If that how it ends I can't see the point of doing any of the side missions because you might aswell die.

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

Why did I read those spoilers.  Ignorance is bliss.

If you think about it, it makes no sense that the endings are so remarkably similar.  What would be the point of telling us how there's all these variables, which apparently hold such sway (and judging from datamines of the demo, they do!) if the endings we work towards are almost literal copypastes of each other.

Regardless of the "information" we have, nothing about this follows what we've come to expect of Bioware, nor were we given ANY indication of such a radical paradigm shift at any point during development.  Not to mention, if Mass Effect was intended to be a Space Opera-style story, this sudden shift runs opposite of that intended style as well.

Basically put, NOTHING we've seen so far is consistent with Bioware.  If anything, the "sources" are lining up almost perfectly with the old, outdated script, which should be the least reliable source of information considering how much work was done since the leak.

[jellobell]

rad77 wrote...

well i've seen a few screens from the ending and in one of them shepherd (i hope its him:P) is standing on some bluish planet with a kid near him, so i guess he wont end up alone ;p

That's not Shepard, it's just some random Normandy colonist telling the kid a story.

[Clayless]

Tietj wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Someone give me a link to where it says the Normandy is stranded alone.

Seriously why is no one doing this? This should take you 0.5 seconds.

Nobody has the link, because it's in the spoiler group and nobody wants to comb through a zillion pages trying to find it.  However, you're correct if you're saying that this information is suspect.

Link me to the spoiler group and I'll comb through a zillion pages myself.

[Mims]

I imagine bioware didn't think too hard on the endings. They thought one special ending with Shepard alive was enough. And it would have been, except for the ridiculousness that is the normandy needlessly stranding itself in a way that adds nothing to the plot. And an epilogue that is the same even for the control ending, where reaper tech should still be viable.

[RiouHotaru]

Aeowyn wrote...

Not to be that person, but when Klace was posting "spoilers" in the S/S thread about Kaidan and Ashley's sexuality, Chris Priestly was pretty quick with saying that some of the information posted was made up and lies.

This as well, Chris was -amazingly- quick to shut down Klace's spoilers, but is making absolutely no move whatsoever on Xio's information.  Now why would that be?

[LouTenant]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Tietj wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Someone give me a link to where it says the Normandy is stranded alone.

Seriously why is no one doing this? This should take you 0.5 seconds.

Nobody has the link, because it's in the spoiler group and nobody wants to comb through a zillion pages trying to find it.  However, you're correct if you're saying that this information is suspect.

Link me to the spoiler group and I'll comb through a zillion pages myself.

social.bioware.com/group/5245

[royceclemens]

chuckles471 wrote...
Why did I read those spoilers.  Ignorance is bliss.

No, my friend... Denial... Denial is bliss.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that there is nothing about these endings that can't be fixed if you don't stop at the least level and load your next Shepard.  If the ending will ruin the game (and it will), then don't play it.  Because if these are the only endings you get, Casey Hudson and his writing staff didn't just screw over fans of good storytelling, tonal consistancy and, well, common sense, they screwed over everyone else who worked on the game that did their job properly.

So don't play the ending.  Is it like Marge Simpson eating the Bambi video?  Yes, but whatever works.  Will we miss out on gamerscore?  Yes, but like the achievements for siding with Caesar's Legion in Fallout: New Vegas, the achievement for finishing ME3 will be one I'll actually take great personal pride in not getting.

If these are the only endings we get, then Mass Effect 3 was written and produced by trained circus animals.  And if you let them finish your game for you, you'll deserve whatever you get. 

[draken-heart]

something does seem strange here, but right now, i know if i do not like the ME3 "endings" i can always headcanon my DA lesbian rogue Hawke stayed with Merrill and my Fallout: New Vegas Female Courier got with Veronica post game.

[ratzerman]

The screenshot of the man and child is from the after-credits cinematic. It's not Shepard. The child asks the old man to "tell him about the Shepard again."

Thus establishing the possibility that the entire trilogy was just a story being told to a child.

[Patriota125]

xtorma wrote...

NO:crying::crying:

Somebody call the waaaambulance!

[RiouHotaru]

Sia_Sinblade wrote...

Well made points.

However...people like to forget that this is as much BioWare's story as it is "ours" Throughout ME1 and 2 you only got 1 real ending with alterations to the theme.

ME1 = Saren/Reaper destroyed , alteration: Council lives or dies
ME2 = Collector's are defeated/purged, human reaper destroyed , alteration: save the base or not and who dies

It is feasible to think that the writers at BW have a specific ending in mind. One that suits their idea of how the trilogy should end. After all, most writers write their own stories, not the stories they are told to write by fans.

That being said, it should be stated that an ending that has no "hope", in it for the main protagonist, is incredibly difficult to sell. Like I mentioned earlier, I remember Divinity 2 and how shocked I was, even outraged. Nothing you did in the game could change the outcome. You always lost.

So...in summary, your points are valid, but I can still see these endings being the real thing.

Yes, but still, look at the pattern of behavior in ME1 and 2.  Endings were different, while still reaching the same conclusion (Sovereign destroyed, Collectors destroyed).  The endings were -very- different in terms of tone and content, and allowed for optimal conclusions (At least in 2, since that's the only game where optimal conditions mattered).

This makes the claim that the endings are 'virtually indistinct from one another" fall flat.  What's the point in telling us that we should do as MUCH of the side content as we possibly can in ME3, if the endings are so homogenized?  Not to mention the homogenization itself feels way out of place for what we've come to expect.

[humes spork]

Capeo wrote...

That's about the most astute summation of the series I've read so far.  Essentially ME3 could be a stand alone game with no impact to the outcomes.  Hell, if it were these endings would be far more palatable.

Thanks...and yeah, that's exactly it. It's a real slap to the face of the folks who have been following the franchise since day one and really invested in many of those prior decisions. The whole Crucible/Guardian thing absolutely reeks of contrivance and lazy writing, and shoots the themes of the trilogy (and reward for playing since day one) right in the foot.

What does any of it matter if it all boils down to finding and using Magical Space Bomb in the eleventh hour regardless? How in any way does actually building a galactic coalition and destroying the Reapers in a colossally epic battle that's so costly it sets the galactic community back centuries in economic, technological and social development "undermine the Reaper threat"? It's already well established in the universe's lore the Reapers' sole trump cards were the element of surprise and weight of numbers, and they're not actually that powerful (or smart, to be quite frank) compared to the galaxy's level of technology and military might by the end of ME2.

Magical Space Bomb that kills the Reapers but wrecks the galaxy in the process should have been what Shepard goes after if s/he's a complete frak-up that couldn't even rally the Council to humanity's side through the absolute worst decisions one could make throughout ME1/2 -- leaving the Council to die but not performing the human coup or making amends, denying themselves allies like the Rachni and Krogan vis-a-vis Wrex, destroying the Collector base so humanity itself wouldn't even have a technological base to fight the Reapers alone, hacking off Liara or not helping her become the Shadow Broker to disseminate intelligence. That should be the pity ending thrown to Shepards who were so hopelessly incompetent that actually saving (or dooming) the galaxy on the strength of his or her decisions alone was an utter impossibility.

Heck, one could even have thrown in an ending where it comes to pass Shepard him/herself ended up Indoctrinated, probably in part by Project Lazarus and in the other part by saving the Collector base, through the course of ME3 been subconsciously sabotaging the galaxy's chances at survival and in the end is "rewarded" by the Reapers by becoming the dominant consciousness of the next Reaper and the vanguard of the next cycle.

Nope, it's all gotta boil down to a single stupid MacGuffin hunt and single stupid choice that's foreshadowed and impacted in no signficant way by previous events and choices.

[RiouHotaru]

ratzerman wrote...

The screenshot of the man and child is from the after-credits cinematic. It's not Shepard. The child asks the old man to "tell him about the Shepard again."

Thus establishing the possibility that the entire trilogy was just a story being told to a child.

That picture?  Was already confirmed as a fake.  Someone found two wallpaper images that look remarkably similar to that piece, enough so that I don't think that picture comes from ME3 at all.

[Kimosabe]

RiouHotaru wrote...
--

I really hope somewhere some guy is laughing his ass off that this forum exploded with the misinformation that he gave.
It does seem that the information doesn't add up, especially the way you explain it, but this could just as well be wishfull thinking on my part, I just want the game to be an worthy end to the series.

Problem is that the game has to end big. You destroy/control/become a reaper so the universe has to change dramatically. which it should. But they will also need a way to tie your LI, friends and the Normandy into it in order to make and end to the serie in a more personal way and this could go wrong very easily for a lot of people.

And Bioware hasn't commented once in this topic...

[Amkiir]

KMYash wrote...

Amkiir wrote...

Thats true but those endings work best when it feels natural to the situation the cast has faced. I Am Legend wouldn't of worked so well if they used the original ending (IE: He lives) - the situation he faced left him hopeless and alone and that feeling never really lifted itself from his existence so watching him pull out the grenade and rush the infected made more sense than him "talking" to the infected and just walking off into the sunset. 

Shepard and Co. aren't in a war they can win but they are in a war they can only hope to survive against an enemy that is almost indestructible and with unheard of power. Not one or two but thousands of them.

Maybe there will be a traditional happy ending but in this situation this ending might be as happy as it can ever get. Frankly I'm fine with the ending if they can justify it in the story.

Agreed, but I don't think an ending needs to be rainbows and sparkles to be a happy ending. I Am Legend does benefit from the sad ending, but (correct me if I'm wrong its been a while since I saw the movie) it ended on a hopeful note because the woman survived with the cure he worked on. From what I've read about the endings in this thread it doesn't have that feeling. It feels like they lost even if they beat the Reapers. OF course this could all be wrong and the endings might be perfect once people play.

Thats 100% correct and I think thats kind of the feel to this ending. By this point Shepard and Co. have lost everything but in doing so they can offer the hope that future generations will not have to face such threats as they have.

Its a bit of a punch in the crotch for everyone who has invested time in this series but I think right now its the "idea" of the ending that makes it seem so bad more then the ending or its deliverly. Playing through it will hopefully be better than reading it.

[k-baggs]

Spoiler: the whole Mass Effect universe was imagined by David Archer while looking at a snow globe.

[Fafner_Ni]

Patriota125 wrote...

NO

Wow!! Another teenage cool though guy who doesnt like the ending!!

What kid, you wanted sunshine and bunnies? well, NO, this game is intented for people OLDER than 18, not for 13 year old girls, ok?.

GTFO please.

I'm so kool and edgy xDDDD

[Patriota125]

ratzerman wrote...

The screenshot of the man and child is from the after-credits cinematic. It's not Shepard. The child asks the old man to "tell him about the Shepard again."

Thus establishing the possibility that the entire trilogy was just a story being told to a child.

That would be a BRILLIANT possibility. But it's just a possibility. Probably that old man was a member of the crew.

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Someone give me a link to where it says the Normandy is stranded alone.

Seriously why is no one doing this? This should take you 0.5 seconds.

They don't have it. Because they dont know what they're talking about.

[RiouHotaru]

humes spork wrote...

Capeo wrote...

That's about the most astute summation of the series I've read so far.  Essentially ME3 could be a stand alone game with no impact to the outcomes.  Hell, if it were these endings would be far more palatable.

Thanks...and yeah, that's exactly it. It's a real slap to the face of the folks who have been following the franchise since day one and really invested in many of those prior decisions. The whole Crucible/Guardian thing absolutely reeks of contrivance and lazy writing, and shoots the themes of the trilogy (and reward for playing since day one) right in the foot.

What does any of it matter if it all boils down to finding and using Magical Space Bomb in the eleventh hour regardless? How in any way does actually building a galactic coalition and destroying the Reapers in a colossally epic battle that's so costly it sets the galactic community back centuries in economic, technological and social development "undermine the Reaper threat"? It's already well established in the universe's lore the Reapers' sole trump cards were the element of surprise and weight of numbers, and they're not actually that powerful (or smart, to be quite frank) compared to the galaxy's level of technology and military might by the end of ME2.

Magical Space Bomb that kills the Reapers but wrecks the galaxy in the process should have been what Shepard goes after if s/he's a complete frak-up that couldn't even rally the Council to humanity's side through the absolute worst decisions one could make throughout ME1/2 -- leaving the Council to die but not performing the human coup or making amends, denying themselves allies like the Rachni and Krogan vis-a-vis Wrex, destroying the Collector base so humanity itself wouldn't even have a technological base to fight the Reapers alone, hacking off Liara or not helping her become the Shadow Broker to disseminate intelligence. That should be the pity ending thrown to Shepards who were so hopelessly incompetent that actually saving (or dooming) the galaxy on the strength of his or her decisions alone was an utter impossibility.

Heck, one could even have thrown in an ending where it comes to pass Shepard him/herself ended up Indoctrinated, probably in part by Project Lazarus and in the other part by saving the Collector base, through the course of ME3 been subconsciously sabotaging the galaxy's chances at survival and in the end is "rewarded" by the Reapers by becoming the dominant consciousness of the next Reaper and the vanguard of the next cycle.

Nope, it's all gotta boil down to a single stupid MacGuffin hunt and single stupid choice that's foreshadowed and impacted in no signficant way by previous events and choices.

And this is why I believe we're not getting the whole picture.  Or, that Tank and Xio aren't as aware of all the information as they claim to be.

[xtorma]

Patriota125 wrote...

xtorma wrote...

NO:crying::crying:

Somebody call the waaaambulance!

Yes

[Rdubs]

Zulmoka531 wrote...

I'm gonna gout out on a limb here, a very thin one and just say they dug themselves into a hole. They threw out so much hype about choice, and freedoms and what have you that they couldn't actually deliver on them all.

THIS.

We won't know for sure until a future former employee does a tell-all, but until then what Zulmoka mentioned here seems to be the most logical strategic reason we are stuck with this.

I have no doubt when ME was first envisioned it was, let's come up with an interactive space drama where the player's choices will totally decide the outcome of the story.  And that's how they pitched it and people ate it up.  Then when ME3 came along, they had to finally EXECUTE on delivering these wide varieties of endings.  And that's where the failure occurred.  When they sat down to chart out all the possible ways decisions could affect the endings, the resulting diagram showed they would have to do dozens of different endings at which point they realized it would be really expensive and take a long time.  They probably considered trying to group similar branches of the story to reduce the count, so the endings would be happy ending / bittersweet / train wreck, but then realized that 1) it would still cost a lot to produce all that, and/or 2) fans might be pissed if the endings were too generic and fell short of their hopes.  And when they factored in how all the different endings would need to be taken into account to set the stage for any follow-on ME products, the task became even worse.

So what to do?  At this point they were backed into a corner and had only one real choice: Force everybody into a dramatic ending unlike what anyone is expecting and try to play it off as "we wanted to give you the maximum emotional experience."  And keep repeating that line and stick to it no matter what, and if we do then we'll have enough people who will believe it that they can help defend us against critics saying we pulled a DA2-style ending, except this time did so on the end of a trilogy where we promised all along that your decisions matter.

Of course I can't prove any of the above but I've seen "over-promise / under-deliver" situations unfold firsthand many times in various industries and they all follow a typical pattern.  Here's hoping a while from now someone leaks what really happened behind the scenes.

One final thing...I've already seen some die-hard fans try to come to Bioware's defense of the endings by saying, "They only said in the past that your decisions would be important and would matter, not that they would have an effect on the story outcome, so they didn't lie."  That distinction might be legally correct, but I think reasonable consumers would interpret something saying your choices affect the story to mean to include the outcome, not just window dressing like does Shiala want to date you or not.  In summary, it seems to me anyone trying to defend this disappointment by trying to claim that "your choice matter" implies nothing like "your choices matter on the outcome", has already lost.