101103 réponses à ce sujet

[PhoenixDove1]

baronkohinar wrote...

Looks like everyone smells blood now that someone from BioWare is actually responding to us and are hopping on the other forum to beat up on Woo. Luckily, he appears to be a class act and cites our behavior positively:

Stanley Woo wrote...

I've been abused on the forum before. This isn't even close to it. The
vast majority of folks here have been very reasonable and have asked
good questions. It's this kind of environment that attracts developers
to participate in discussions, so the more threads the community creates
that are as mature and civil as this one is, the more likely it is that
developers (and jerks like me and John Epler) will want to come chat.

See what happens when we keep things civil? Hold the line!

please please please, come to this one!!!!!

[Mavaras]

spacefiddle wrote...

Mavaras wrote...

spacefiddle wrote...

Wow, Ben Kuchera is a grade-A jackass.  After his comment on us donating to Child's Play, i noticed a lot of the replies he got from other folks was more of the same condescending crap we've been hearing from people who like to throw around buzzwords before they spend two seconds checking out, you know, this unpopular thing called "facts."

I thanked him and said I was glad to participate.  I also said it was amusing how many people were throwing around "entitlement."

His response?  He bothered to tweet me back to say only "And... block."  What a schmuck.  This guy's actually the public face of a charity?

He is probably in a tough position because we have forced him into a conflict of interests; his opinions and the viability of the charity.

Nah.  Sorry I got PO'd and called him a jackass, but really?  I've ignoreed plenty of people in various media.  I don't go out of my way to contact them and say "I've blocked you, nyeah nyeah."  That's just childish and petty.  It's unprofessional and not appropriate as a response to someone who just thanked you for acknowledging our contributions.  He's a jerk.

I was only implying he blocked you because he didn't want to deal with that conflict. His informing you in that manner I consider to be a different matter entirely and I feel sorry he did that to you.

[WvStolzing]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

spacefiddle wrote...
Dismissing a poll on your website is... just silly.  It shoots in the foot every other poll your company has ever put up on its website.  Bioware used a TON of polls on the SWTOR website all through beta, and early access, and i think they still keep active polls now.  Are they wasting their time?  Do they discard the results they get from these polls?  No, of course not.  Mr. Woo is motivated to protect his company line, which is admirable in any employee, but not to the extreme of making silly illogical sweeping statements like this.

No, quite the opposite. It's GOOD to dismiss these polls because they aren't a random sample from the population. We're a self-selected population. People who are okay with the ending are far less likely to respond to that poll as they would have little interset in seeing their point be made - things are the way they are, they aren't trying to change anything. We are.

I was trying to say the same thing a couple hundred pages eariler, and one guy asked me, "who do you think they should ask, if not the people who have played it?". Then I gave up.

[spacefiddle]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

spacefiddle wrote...

RussianOrc wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

Could someone catch me up on the latest news? Been gone for about four hours.

Stanley woo is crushing our hopes here http://social.biowar...ndex/9960839/24

Read that.  Interesting response from Mr. Woo: he dismisses the poll.  I *knew* that was coming, but hoped anyway.  If we follow that logic... then all polls, including the ten thousand polls Bioware themselves put up on the SWTOR site and elsewhere, are useless, for the same reason.  Stanley basically dismisses the polls as unimportant, and the reasons he provides for their meaninglessness apply equally to ALL polls.   /eyeroll

Gimme a break.

Internet polls are meaningless because of how easy they are to break. The blog Pharyngula likes to do it fairly frequently. And I've been stating all along that the poll is more of a petition than anything.

Also, related to Ben Kuchera, have you guys thought to email Gabe and Tycho from PA about the way he's behaving? I don't like the face he's giving Penny-Arcade.

Ok, yeah.  I see what you mean, but my point is I wasn't a pre-existing member of this self-selected community; I *came* from the general population precisely because of this issue.  Maybe I'm not saying this well =/.  The population of these boards, and in that poll, is currently umm inflated? by genpop members who have arrived here because of this and only this.  See what I mean?  And again, why does Bioware themselves use so many internet polls, if they should never be trusted..?

Also, how should I email Tycho and Gabe?  Should I really?  I don't want to complain, but I wouldn't mind simply forwarding the Twitter notification to them and letting them decide themselves how they feel about it.

[TSC_1]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

spacefiddle wrote...
Dismissing a poll on your website is... just silly.  It shoots in the foot every other poll your company has ever put up on its website.  Bioware used a TON of polls on the SWTOR website all through beta, and early access, and i think they still keep active polls now.  Are they wasting their time?  Do they discard the results they get from these polls?  No, of course not.  Mr. Woo is motivated to protect his company line, which is admirable in any employee, but not to the extreme of making silly illogical sweeping statements like this.

No, quite the opposite. It's GOOD to dismiss these polls because they aren't a random sample from the population. We're a self-selected population. People who are okay with the ending are far less likely to respond to that poll as they would have little interset in seeing their point be made - things are the way they are, they aren't trying to change anything. We are.

Exactly. The poll is unscientific, and cannot be taken to be representative. However, there is a proper way to use these unscientific polls: numbers. Take each vote for "I dislike the ending" as a complaint. Then realize that the usual thing to do is say that for every complaint you get, there are actually ten dissatisfied people. Which gives you a (very) rough idea of how many people you've dissatified.

That's how BW should look at this poll, I would think.

[Computim]

spacefiddle wrote...

Mavaras wrote...

Nilofeliu wrote...

Tarnation007 wrote...

The one comment I didn't like of Stanley's is how he dismissed us as a minority because our poll (with last time I checked had over 41,000 votes I think) isn't valid enough for them.

Let's try some simple math. Even if there are only 41 thousand of us, 41.000 x 50 (average from the game prices) adds to 2.050.000,00 (2 million and 50 thousand dollars). I think it should be enough to at least catch their attention...

If we use the stablish sampling system that states for each vote in the poll, we should account 10 votes (statistical sampling), instead of 2 millions, we would have 20 millions USD. And those from the people who already bought, played and finished the game.

I think stanley was stating that a poll from the forums is not accurate sampling from the entire population, and therefore, cannot be extrapolated to make that representation. Because of this, it must be viewed as the feelings of one specific demographic, and not the consumer base as a whole. From this, one could call this belief the minority view. It is slightly misleading to do so, because the opinions of the general gaming public remain at large.

So misleading.  You can apply that to ALL polls.  We still use polls.  Why?  Because walking up to everyone and asking is impractical.

Take me, for example.  Until yesterday, I was not a regular on these forums.  In fact, I've maybe posted on them half a dozen times in 2 years.  Stay with me now:

After I finished the game, i assumed I'd screwed sometrhing up; googled "Mass Effect 3 ending;" and found this very thread.  How many others of the "general population" did the same?  Read these thousand pages and it seems like the answer is "a lot."

Dismissing a poll on your website is... just silly.  It shoots in the foot every other poll your company has ever put up on its website.  Bioware used a TON of polls on the SWTOR website all through beta, and early access, and i think they still keep active polls now.  Are they wasting their time?  Do they discard the results they get from these polls?  No, of course not.  Mr. Woo is motivated to protect his company line, which is admirable in any employee, but not to the extreme of making silly illogical sweeping statements like this.

Doesn't this poll require you have a registered account?  They have the 24 hour rule too, that's going to filter out a lot of the usual internet poll gaming there.  I'd expect this poll to be a lot more accurate sample (even though the questions were horribly written) than one on a news channel's website after the 5 o'clock "Do you like parking tickets" segment lol.

[Welsh Inferno]

This is great lol:



For the Control/Blue ending ofcourse.

[Computim]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

This is great lol:



For the Control/Blue ending ofcourse.

hahahahahaha

[OchreJelly]

PhoenixDove1 wrote...

I agree, I just wish he or Chris or any of them would talk to us on this post.

Honestly, the thread moves fast enough as it is. Any response here would get buried and misconstrued and probably several quantum variations of the two. \\o/

[spacefiddle]

PhoenixDove1 wrote...

baronkohinar wrote...

Looks like everyone smells blood now that someone from BioWare is actually responding to us and are hopping on the other forum to beat up on Woo. Luckily, he appears to be a class act and cites our behavior positively:

Stanley Woo wrote...

I've been abused on the forum before. This isn't even close to it. The
vast majority of folks here have been very reasonable and have asked
good questions. It's this kind of environment that attracts developers
to participate in discussions, so the more threads the community creates
that are as mature and civil as this one is, the more likely it is that
developers (and jerks like me and John Epler) will want to come chat.

See what happens when we keep things civil? Hold the line!

please please please, come to this one!!!!!

Yay!  the line, it shall be held.  I still think that "internet polls should not be trusted" is abstract; what we have is 40k people in one week.  Is this common?  Is this something anyone should shrug off?  Did 40k people complain about ME2 in one week?  Or even DA2?  Maybe the poll itself should not be taken as a literal mathematical truth; but if the response, in general, is an outlier, it merits consideration.

[Roll Equals Cute]

One positive thing that came about from these endings...

All the great pics

[Mavaras]

spacefiddle wrote...

Mavaras wrote...

Nilofeliu wrote...

Tarnation007 wrote...

The one comment I didn't like of Stanley's is how he dismissed us as a minority because our poll (with last time I checked had over 41,000 votes I think) isn't valid enough for them.

Let's try some simple math. Even if there are only 41 thousand of us, 41.000 x 50 (average from the game prices) adds to 2.050.000,00 (2 million and 50 thousand dollars). I think it should be enough to at least catch their attention...

If we use the stablish sampling system that states for each vote in the poll, we should account 10 votes (statistical sampling), instead of 2 millions, we would have 20 millions USD. And those from the people who already bought, played and finished the game.

I think stanley was stating that a poll from the forums is not accurate sampling from the entire population, and therefore, cannot be extrapolated to make that representation. Because of this, it must be viewed as the feelings of one specific demographic, and not the consumer base as a whole. From this, one could call this belief the minority view. It is slightly misleading to do so, because the opinions of the general gaming public remain at large.

So misleading.  You can apply that to ALL polls.  We still use polls.  Why?  Because walking up to everyone and asking is impractical.

Take me, for example.  Until yesterday, I was not a regular on these forums.  In fact, I've maybe posted on them half a dozen times in 2 years.  Stay with me now:

After I finished the game, i assumed I'd screwed sometrhing up; googled "Mass Effect 3 ending;" and found this very thread.  How many others of the "general population" did the same?  Read these thousand pages and it seems like the answer is "a lot."

Dismissing a poll on your website is... just silly.  It shoots in the foot every other poll your company has ever put up on its website.  Bioware used a TON of polls on the SWTOR website all through beta, and early access, and i think they still keep active polls now.  Are they wasting their time?  Do they discard the results they get from these polls?  No, of course not.  Mr. Woo is motivated to protect his company line, which is admirable in any employee, but not to the extreme of making silly illogical sweeping statements like this.

Yep. No matter what, it is indicative of a problem, which I think Stanley agree'd with. But, we shouldn't say the poll is something it is not. What the poll is and isn't is defined by its limitations in statistics.

[Lord Costantino]

OchreJelly wrote...

PhoenixDove1 wrote...

I agree, I just wish he or Chris or any of them would talk to us on this post.

Honestly, the thread moves fast enough as it is. Any response here would get buried and misconstrued and probably several quantum variations of the two. o/

Still they say they want to communicate with their customers...why go to a spoiler free area if not to avoid talking about the ending with the people that are upset. They need to come over here and face down this problem, the longer they don't it will become worse. 

[ArmyKnifeX]

spacefiddle wrote...
Ok, yeah.  I see what you mean, but my point is I wasn't a pre-existing member of this self-selected community; I *came* from the general population precisely because of this issue.  Maybe I'm not saying this well =/.  The population of these boards, and in that poll, is currently umm inflated? by genpop members who have arrived here because of this and only this.  See what I mean?  And again, why does Bioware themselves use so many internet polls, if they should never be trusted..?

Also, how should I email Tycho and Gabe?  Should I really?  I don't want to complain, but I wouldn't mind simply forwarding the Twitter notification to them and letting them decide themselves how they feel about it.

That's exactly my point though - you came here to these forums to complain. And vote in the poll. That's the process of self-selection.

Gabe and Tycho's emails are as follows:
gabe@penny-arcade.com
tycho@penny-arcade.com

I'd write it like you would any letter. Link to some of the offending tweets and tell them that he's being a dick to a lot of ME3 fans and fans of Penny-Arcade itself. If you can link to some of the smarmy, sarcastic stuff he's said about our raising tens of thousands of dollars of our own money to go toward their charity, it might be good too. But don't be berating or belittling, just state the facts.

The more people who do this, the better - they'll have to listen. And they almost certainly will respond.

[RussianOrc]

[quote]Nathos wrote...

John and Stanley

How about you spend some time to chat on the area of the forum that spoilers are allowed?

We have coffe and donuts![/quote]

I'm trying my hardest to avoid spoilers, because I've yet to have a chance to play through ME3. And, being up on the DA floor, there are large swathes of content that remain blissfully unspoiled for me, with the exception of the endings and a few bits and pieces here and there.

Thus why I can recognize spoilers a mile away.
[/quote]



From the other thread......i thought you guys would like to see this.

Modifié par RussianOrc, 15 mars 2012 - 04:17 .

[Shiyamirai]

foxtrotcharlie wrote...

Darkwingduck wrote...

In regards to Stanley he doesn't have to do what he is right now. He is taking a bit of a beating on the forums and surviving remarkably well. He knows very well that he can't tell us anything and he has to be cryptic bc his geth consensus is not complete. I presume he is here as an extension of good will from Bioware to the fans on the forums so we know they hear us and they see what we're saying. Please be nice to Stanley he is a brave dude and I will take his strange geth gesture of good will with pride. We hold the line.

True, I understand that Mr. Woo is being very brave by being on the forums.  Yet I think, for me at least, it is purely through Bioware's handling of the fallout of the situation that I am most disapointed in, and even that this situation was even able to ever arise.  

I have always regarded Bioware's writers to be of a very high caliber, yet after this fiasco, I think we all are starting to have our doubts of what caused this ending to occur.  The original ending, located in the old scripts, not only made more sense, but was a more-complete and satisfying ending to such a great series.  

In this, I must argue that there was absolutely no way that none of the professional writers at Bioware looked at the finished script and said:

"Yeah this is not only a great and memorable ending which successfully ties the consequences of all three games, but it will also give the fans a satisfying way to both end the game and entice them to play it again and again."

NO. Bloody. WAY.  

That is what is so flabbergasting about the whole situation. The Bioware writers know better than this.  

To me, this seems like a lazy kid's attempt to pull an all-nighter in order to finish a 12 page research paper which is due the next day.  

Or everyone had a nervous breakdown
Either way- second that emotion

[Jackal7713]

Nilofeliu wrote...

You are correct. It would be a flawed logic to base such serious argument on one poll created by and for us. However, you have forgotten to mention that there are many polls around the internet, not only those we are related to, but also polls from gaming sites, blogs, you name it. And every single one of them show the majority of the players disappointed with the game. So, if we apply simple statistical analysis, we will find that these polls do reflect the majority of the player base, and the common assumption is that the game was a failure due to its ending..

If you can refute this logic, please do so.. But no more mices on mars, the cats ate them all... And btw, they had six legs...

/Salute

Your right. However, my argument wasn't ment to detract from our cause or our poll.  What I was trying to say was that when we present our argument, we use more then just a single poll as a responce. We support our argument with other sources, be it links, etc. For  Stan Woo to use one source to support his argument, doesn't make his argument  a strong argument.

[KaiserinKai]

Computim wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

This is great lol:



For the Control/Blue ending ofcourse.

hahahahahaha

Lol, after dealing with that troll on Youtube, I needed a good laugh.

The lack of Harbringer for most of the game upset me, his hammed up lines were fun in ME2, almost made up for his boss in mook clothing status~

[Hydralysk]

spacefiddle wrote...

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

spacefiddle wrote...

RussianOrc wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

Could someone catch me up on the latest news? Been gone for about four hours.

Stanley woo is crushing our hopes here http://social.biowar...ndex/9960839/24

Read that.  Interesting response from Mr. Woo: he dismisses the poll.  I *knew* that was coming, but hoped anyway.  If we follow that logic... then all polls, including the ten thousand polls Bioware themselves put up on the SWTOR site and elsewhere, are useless, for the same reason.  Stanley basically dismisses the polls as unimportant, and the reasons he provides for their meaninglessness apply equally to ALL polls.   /eyeroll

Gimme a break.

Internet polls are meaningless because of how easy they are to break. The blog Pharyngula likes to do it fairly frequently. And I've been stating all along that the poll is more of a petition than anything.

Also, related to Ben Kuchera, have you guys thought to email Gabe and Tycho from PA about the way he's behaving? I don't like the face he's giving Penny-Arcade.

Ok, yeah.  I see what you mean, but my point is I wasn't a pre-existing member of this self-selected community; I *came* from the general population precisely because of this issue.  Maybe I'm not saying this well =/.  The population of these boards, and in that poll, is currently umm inflated? by genpop members who have arrived here because of this and only this.  See what I mean?  And again, why does Bioware themselves use so many internet polls, if they should never be trusted..?

Also, how should I email Tycho and Gabe?  Should I really?  I don't want to complain, but I wouldn't mind simply forwarding the Twitter notification to them and letting them decide themselves how they feel about it.

He might be acting uncivil, but not much more than most people on the internet. I'm assuming they know him personally, think about this in their shoes. Unless he's being totally out of line with his posts this will most likely come off (no matter how it's worded!) as a stranger complaining about your aquaintance is being mean to him online, and since you are donating to their charity you want them to make him stop. At best it'll be amusing to them, worst case it only reinforces the idea of 'entitlement' that we are trying to distance ourself from.

[Darth Garrus]

OK, guys. Keep it up! I'll get some shut-eye.

Good night!

[KRAETZNER]

Computim wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

This is great lol:



For the Control/Blue ending ofcourse.

hahahahahaha

I guess blue aint so bad

[OniRogue]

ArmyKnifeX wrote...

spacefiddle wrote...
....

No, quite the opposite. It's GOOD to dismiss these polls because they aren't a random sample from the population. We're a self-selected population. People who are okay with the ending are far less likely to respond to that poll as they would have little interset in seeing their point be made - things are the way they are, they aren't trying to change anything. We are.

While I do agree that a poll like this should not be taken at face value, dismissing it is not good. Questioning the target demographic about a random topic may the the scientific way to gather data on trends, but here we look for opinions on a product which can only be given by people who used it.

This Forum may be prone to be very opinionated but if the polls on other non related gaming sites are any indicator, then this Trend is not to far from the common opinion.

Simply saying that everyone who liked the Ending is less inclined to post here is as correct as taking this Poll at Face Value: in itself that is merely an Assumption. I could say that the amazing amount of bashing I saw in other places for criticising the Ending should have mobilised many others to tip the polls in their favour. (Which did not happen)

If you can present me with other polls that show people linking the ending go ahead and I will eat my own words, but as it stands now the Trend I could see says something different.

[Elite Midget]

DifferentD17 wrote...

lol so many different endings.



if you haven't seen it already..

Not enough colors to summon Rainbw Dash... Bioware couldn't even call upon the power of the Bronies to their aid. Rainbow Dash would easilyt have salvaged this ending.

[rethas]

You know what really grinds my gears.

How gung ho certain press outlets are that people aren't entitled to their own opinion. I wonder how they'd feel if there work was censored by their editors.

Funny that Forbes writes better articles on a subject matter they really shouldn't be more familar with than IGN, Kotaku etc.

Bioware clearly sees from the Twitter feed a lot of people aren't happy, hilarity will ensue if there is a follow up patch and the press outlets all have egg on their face

Modifié par rethas, 15 mars 2012 - 04:22 .

[Arokel]

KRAETZNER wrote...

Computim wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

This is great lol:



For the Control/Blue ending ofcourse.

hahahahahaha

I guess blue aint so bad

Whoever did this is an absolute genius.

I was laughing for a good minute.