101103 réponses à ce sujet

[Cro730]

I would like to say that while I would like a concrete and definative statement from Bioware, I am willing to give them some time to discuss it, as long as they make it RIGHT. I would glady wait longer for them to get everything 100% satisfactory compared to a video explanation or only closure.
I am willing to wait, as long as they fix the endings correctly.

[BuddhaGeek]

Mulberry wrote...

http://www.reddit.co..._dr_ray_muzyka/
Patrick Weekes (bioware writer) posted this on Penny Arcade and then deleted it:


"I have nothing to do with the ending beyond a) having argued successfully a long time ago that we needed a chance to say goodbye to our squad, having argued successfully that Cortez shouldn't automatically die in that shuttle crash, and c) having written Tali's goodbye bit, as well as a couple of the holo-goodbyes for people I wrote (Mordin, Kasumi, Jack, etc). 
No other writer did, either, except for our lead. This was entirely the work of our lead and Casey himself, sitting in a room and going through draft after draft. 
And honestly, it kind of shows. 
Every other mission in the game had to be held up to the rest of the writing team, and the writing team then picked it apart and made suggestions and pointed out the parts that made no sense. This mission? Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d 
And again, it shows. 
If you'd asked me the themes of Mass Effect 3, I'd break them down as: Galactic Alliances Friends Organics versus Synthetics 
In my personal opinion, the first two got a perfunctory nod. We did get a goodbye to our friends, but it was in a scene that was divorced from the gameplay -- a deliberate "nothing happens here" area with one turret thrown in for no reason I really understand, except possibly to obfuscate the "nothing happens here"-ness. The best missions in our game are the ones in which the gameplay and the narrative reinforce each other. The end of the Genophage campaign exemplifies that for me -- every line of dialog is showing you both sides of the krogan, be they horrible brutes or proud warriors; the art shows both their bombed-out wasteland and the beautiful world they once had and could have again; the combat shows the terror of the Reapers as well as a blatant reminder of the rachni, which threatened the galaxy and had to be stopped by the krogan last time. Every line of code in that mission is on target with the overall message. 
The endgame doesn't have that. I wanted to see banshees attacking you, and then have asari gunships zoom in and blow them away. I wanted to see a wave of rachni ravagers come around a corner only to be met by a wall of krogan roaring a battle cry. Here's the horror the Reapers inflicted upon each race, and here's the army that you, Commander Shepard, made out of every race in the galaxy to fight them. 
I personally thought that the Illusive Man conversation was about twice as long as it needed to be -- something that I've been told in my peer reviews of my missions and made edits on, but again, this is a conversation no writer but the lead ever saw until it was already recorded. I did love Anderson's goodbye. 
For me, Anderson's goodbye is where it ended. The stuff with the Catalyst just... You have to understand. Casey is really smart and really analytical. And the problem is that when he's not checked, he will assume that other people are like him, and will really appreciate an almost completely unemotional intellectual ending. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it. 
And then, just to be a dick... what was SUPPOSED to happen was that, say you picked "Destroy the Reapers". When you did that, the system was SUPPOSED to look at your score, and then you'd show a cutscene of Earth that was either: 
a) Very high score: Earth obviously damaged, but woo victory  Medium score: Earth takes a bunch of damage from the Crucible activation. Like dropping a bomb on an already war-ravaged city. Uh, well, maybe not LIKE that as much as, uh, THAT. c) Low score: Earth is a cinderblock, all life on it completely wiped out 
I have NO IDEA why these different cutscenes aren't in there. As far as I know, they were never cut. Maybe they were cut for budget reasons at the last minute. I don't know. But holy crap, yeah, I can see how incredibly disappointing it'd be to hear of all the different ending possibilities and have it break down to "which color is stuff glowing?" Or maybe they ARE in, but they're too subtle to really see obvious differences, and again, that's... yeah. 
Okay, that's a lot to have written for something that's gonna go away in an hour. 
I still teared up at the ending myself, but really, I was tearing up for the quick flashbacks to old friends and the death of Anderson. I wasn't tearing up over making a choice that, as it turned out, didn't have enough cutscene differentiation on it. 
And to be clear, I don't even really wish Shepard had gotten a ride-off-into-sunset ending. I was honestly okay with Shepard sacrificing himself. I just expected it to be for something with more obvious differentiation, and a stronger tie to the core themes -- all three of them."

This is incredibly enlightening and really gives insight into what the heck actually happened that caused such a disconnect between the first 90% of the game and the last 10%. Thank you for sharing this!<3

[Chatboy 91]

Neezoy wrote...

Chatboy 91 wrote...

*snip*

Great post! I agree completely.

And here:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/10385157/1

Thank you sir!

[Yuoaman]

Mulberry: Thanks for posting, that would explain why the ending doesn't fit the rest of the game.

[Generic Name]

TSC_1 wrote...

Hobbs1975 wrote...

Mulberry wrote...

http://www.reddit.co..._dr_ray_muzyka/
Patrick Weekes (bioware writer) posted this on Penny Arcade and then deleted it:

Is there any way to verify that was actually him and that he really said that?  Because, wow.

Exactly. I want the original link so more people can read it.

There does not seem to be a link any more.

[Stygian1]

mulder1199 wrote...

how would (most) everybody feel about 'breathe' dlc.....you tell starchild to effoff, or you just got that ending through the choice you picked, you fight the fight some of your choices are reflected and you get a few varied endings with LI, etc....


sorry this picks up from the shep breathing shot....

What I've been saying! Yes! 

[RussianOrc]

TamiBx wrote...

 What I think Bioware doesn't understand is that we are not holding the line only because of the plot holes. Most of us are also here because we got no other option besides the three colors that lead to the same ending (basically) and no epilogue. 
I think they're just thinking we don't get the ending...<_<

If they really think we just "don't got the ending" then they aren't listening to us at all.....

[Computim]

Mulberry wrote...

http://www.reddit.co..._dr_ray_muzyka/
Patrick Weekes (bioware writer) posted this on Penny Arcade and then deleted it:
snip

I really hope he said this.. it answers even more if he did.

Until the media gives some confirmation though it's unlikely we'll ever know.

This, honestly, fits all of what I've seen to this point though... which is really sad for the ME3 team.

[Darth Garrus]

Mulberry wrote...

http://www.reddit.co..._dr_ray_muzyka/
Patrick Weekes (bioware writer) posted this on Penny Arcade and then deleted it:


"I have nothing to do with the ending beyond a) having argued successfully a long time ago that we needed a chance to say goodbye to our squad, having argued successfully that Cortez shouldn't automatically die in that shuttle crash, and c) having written Tali's goodbye bit, as well as a couple of the holo-goodbyes for people I wrote (Mordin, Kasumi, Jack, etc). 
No other writer did, either, except for our lead. This was entirely the work of our lead and Casey himself, sitting in a room and going through draft after draft. 
And honestly, it kind of shows.

Ouch. I guess they started to point fingers at each other.

It's uncalled for. But, nevertheless, if we can see past it, it shows just how bad the endings were.

The only thing I would point out is when he said about intellectuals. A guy can very well be very intelligent, smart, whatever. But he can't be in intellectual if he doesn't do something about it. He can be smart as anyone, but can't write philosophically with no philosophy background. He can't write deeply enough without training or being an accomplished reader of the classics. Sorry, but there it is. The inescapable truth. Trying to be all these things without a solid base will always result in "pseudo-intellectual fiascos" like the ending.

And no, I'm not bashing anyone. It's just the truth. If the people involved in the ending really want to learn from it, in a humble way, they better stop taking it as an offense, and learning their lesson. Move on, and write to your strengths, and don't try to bite more than you can chew.

[chujwamdotego]

Yuoaman wrote...

"@asenza We are adding new content that is being created specifically to address the passionate outcry of our fans. That is news."

Well hello there, @masseffect.

I got the feeling that was rude.

Do we make "outcry"? And the ending - that is news - sounds like "so they can shove it".

After reading Dr. Muzyka blog I got good feeling, which is slowly fading away...

[Hobbs1975]

That Weekes thing is either an incredible forgery (which is entirely possible as there are some amazingly talented trolls) or the single most important thing we've seen yet about the ending.

[RussianOrc]

Thrawn81 wrote...



they dont change anything m8s!

So......back to war.

Modifié par RussianOrc, 21 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Valk72]

Aedera wrote...

Mulberry wrote...

http://www.reddit.co..._dr_ray_muzyka/
Patrick Weekes (bioware writer) posted this on Penny Arcade and then deleted it:


"I have nothing to do with the ending beyond a) having argued successfully a long time ago that we needed a chance to say goodbye to our squad, having argued successfully that Cortez shouldn't automatically die in that shuttle crash, and c) having written Tali's goodbye bit, as well as a couple of the holo-goodbyes for people I wrote (Mordin, Kasumi, Jack, etc). 
No other writer did, either, except for our lead. This was entirely the work of our lead and Casey himself, sitting in a room and going through draft after draft. 
And honestly, it kind of shows. 
Every other mission in the game had to be held up to the rest of the writing team, and the writing team then picked it apart and made suggestions and pointed out the parts that made no sense. This mission? Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d 
And again, it shows. 
If you'd asked me the themes of Mass Effect 3, I'd break them down as: Galactic Alliances Friends Organics versus Synthetics 
In my personal opinion, the first two got a perfunctory nod. We did get a goodbye to our friends, but it was in a scene that was divorced from the gameplay -- a deliberate "nothing happens here" area with one turret thrown in for no reason I really understand, except possibly to obfuscate the "nothing happens here"-ness. The best missions in our game are the ones in which the gameplay and the narrative reinforce each other. The end of the Genophage campaign exemplifies that for me -- every line of dialog is showing you both sides of the krogan, be they horrible brutes or proud warriors; the art shows both their bombed-out wasteland and the beautiful world they once had and could have again; the combat shows the terror of the Reapers as well as a blatant reminder of the rachni, which threatened the galaxy and had to be stopped by the krogan last time. Every line of code in that mission is on target with the overall message. 
The endgame doesn't have that. I wanted to see banshees attacking you, and then have asari gunships zoom in and blow them away. I wanted to see a wave of rachni ravagers come around a corner only to be met by a wall of krogan roaring a battle cry. Here's the horror the Reapers inflicted upon each race, and here's the army that you, Commander Shepard, made out of every race in the galaxy to fight them. 
I personally thought that the Illusive Man conversation was about twice as long as it needed to be -- something that I've been told in my peer reviews of my missions and made edits on, but again, this is a conversation no writer but the lead ever saw until it was already recorded. I did love Anderson's goodbye. 
For me, Anderson's goodbye is where it ended. The stuff with the Catalyst just... You have to understand. Casey is really smart and really analytical. And the problem is that when he's not checked, he will assume that other people are like him, and will really appreciate an almost completely unemotional intellectual ending. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it. 
And then, just to be a dick... what was SUPPOSED to happen was that, say you picked "Destroy the Reapers". When you did that, the system was SUPPOSED to look at your score, and then you'd show a cutscene of Earth that was either: 
a) Very high score: Earth obviously damaged, but woo victory  Medium score: Earth takes a bunch of damage from the Crucible activation. Like dropping a bomb on an already war-ravaged city. Uh, well, maybe not LIKE that as much as, uh, THAT. c) Low score: Earth is a cinderblock, all life on it completely wiped out 
I have NO IDEA why these different cutscenes aren't in there. As far as I know, they were never cut. Maybe they were cut for budget reasons at the last minute. I don't know. But holy crap, yeah, I can see how incredibly disappointing it'd be to hear of all the different ending possibilities and have it break down to "which color is stuff glowing?" Or maybe they ARE in, but they're too subtle to really see obvious differences, and again, that's... yeah. 
Okay, that's a lot to have written for something that's gonna go away in an hour. 
I still teared up at the ending myself, but really, I was tearing up for the quick flashbacks to old friends and the death of Anderson. I wasn't tearing up over making a choice that, as it turned out, didn't have enough cutscene differentiation on it. 
And to be clear, I don't even really wish Shepard had gotten a ride-off-into-sunset ending. I was honestly okay with Shepard sacrificing himself. I just expected it to be for something with more obvious differentiation, and a stronger tie to the core themes -- all three of them."

I'm not surprised at all. When you see the difference between the ending and the rest of the game, it screams "unchecked"!

Modifié par Valk72, 21 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[nitefyre410]

Mulberry wrote...

http://www.reddit.co..._dr_ray_muzyka/
Patrick Weekes (bioware writer) posted this on Penny Arcade and then deleted it:


"I have nothing to do with the ending beyond a) having argued successfully a long time ago that we needed a chance to say goodbye to our squad, having argued successfully that Cortez shouldn't automatically die in that shuttle crash, and c) having written Tali's goodbye bit, as well as a couple of the holo-goodbyes for people I wrote (Mordin, Kasumi, Jack, etc). 
No other writer did, either, except for our lead. This was entirely the work of our lead and Casey himself, sitting in a room and going through draft after draft. 
And honestly, it kind of shows. 
Every other mission in the game had to be held up to the rest of the writing team, and the writing team then picked it apart and made suggestions and pointed out the parts that made no sense. This mission? Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d 
And again, it shows. 
If you'd asked me the themes of Mass Effect 3, I'd break them down as: Galactic Alliances Friends Organics versus Synthetics 
In my personal opinion, the first two got a perfunctory nod. We did get a goodbye to our friends, but it was in a scene that was divorced from the gameplay -- a deliberate "nothing happens here" area with one turret thrown in for no reason I really understand, except possibly to obfuscate the "nothing happens here"-ness. The best missions in our game are the ones in which the gameplay and the narrative reinforce each other. The end of the Genophage campaign exemplifies that for me -- every line of dialog is showing you both sides of the krogan, be they horrible brutes or proud warriors; the art shows both their bombed-out wasteland and the beautiful world they once had and could have again; the combat shows the terror of the Reapers as well as a blatant reminder of the rachni, which threatened the galaxy and had to be stopped by the krogan last time. Every line of code in that mission is on target with the overall message. 
The endgame doesn't have that. I wanted to see banshees attacking you, and then have asari gunships zoom in and blow them away. I wanted to see a wave of rachni ravagers come around a corner only to be met by a wall of krogan roaring a battle cry. Here's the horror the Reapers inflicted upon each race, and here's the army that you, Commander Shepard, made out of every race in the galaxy to fight them. 
I personally thought that the Illusive Man conversation was about twice as long as it needed to be -- something that I've been told in my peer reviews of my missions and made edits on, but again, this is a conversation no writer but the lead ever saw until it was already recorded. I did love Anderson's goodbye. 
For me, Anderson's goodbye is where it ended. The stuff with the Catalyst just... You have to understand. Casey is really smart and really analytical. And the problem is that when he's not checked, he will assume that other people are like him, and will really appreciate an almost completely unemotional intellectual ending. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it. 
And then, just to be a dick... what was SUPPOSED to happen was that, say you picked "Destroy the Reapers". When you did that, the system was SUPPOSED to look at your score, and then you'd show a cutscene of Earth that was either: 
a) Very high score: Earth obviously damaged, but woo victory  Medium score: Earth takes a bunch of damage from the Crucible activation. Like dropping a bomb on an already war-ravaged city. Uh, well, maybe not LIKE that as much as, uh, THAT. c) Low score: Earth is a cinderblock, all life on it completely wiped out 
I have NO IDEA why these different cutscenes aren't in there. As far as I know, they were never cut. Maybe they were cut for budget reasons at the last minute. I don't know. But holy crap, yeah, I can see how incredibly disappointing it'd be to hear of all the different ending possibilities and have it break down to "which color is stuff glowing?" Or maybe they ARE in, but they're too subtle to really see obvious differences, and again, that's... yeah. 
Okay, that's a lot to have written for something that's gonna go away in an hour. 
I still teared up at the ending myself, but really, I was tearing up for the quick flashbacks to old friends and the death of Anderson. I wasn't tearing up over making a choice that, as it turned out, didn't have enough cutscene differentiation on it. 
And to be clear, I don't even really wish Shepard had gotten a ride-off-into-sunset ending. I was honestly okay with Shepard sacrificing himself. I just expected it to be for something with more obvious differentiation, and a stronger tie to the core themes -- all three of them."

So, essentially   either one of two things are happening.  A.) The team is starting to turn on itself  after some internal meetting were people were called out or  asked some really  tough questions.  B.)  People are starting to just come out with truth and there was some internaly struggle.    I'm leaning to words a given the tone of  this post.    

There was meeting with an  Executives and the Senior staff had their collective feet to the fire.   This is very enlighting and the fact that he posted it and then deleted is even more so.. that means some at Bioware did not want that to be known.

good find.. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 21 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[milkymcmilkerson]

TamiBx wrote...

milkymcmilkerson wrote...

So, I take it that most people here wouldn't settle for a compromise, where the ME team stays true to the ending that they believe works for the series they've been developing for years while still finding a way to address the concerns of those of us who are disappointed with the ending?

Because, IMO, it's probably not going to go down any other way.

How are they even going to do that...? A video? Official statement? That doesn't sound good...

And honestly, they could've addressed this a week ago...<_<

They could obviously build upon what's there already, such as going with the indoctrination theory which allows the current endings to exist because even though they're not real, they're still important to the that particular plot.

Or, they could rework the ending while not completely removing what they already. Things would change (a possible example being given a fourth option that extends the game play, or changing the destroy option so the game could continue from there for another hour or so) but still maintain whatever it is they think was definitely working, or in their opinions what they feel the story definitely needs.

Or, they could just slap together a video explaining what's there already, but after the backlash I seriously doubt they would do that, knowing they would incur further wrath.

[TSC_1]

Cybermortis wrote...

The poll about what we want from the ending is interesting, and I'm not sure if this is another PR tactic to reinforce the 'we are listening' line. Or if it is there because they have narrowed their options down to those three options and are simply trying to work out exactly which of those options is most likely to work.

*Shrugs*

I'll give Bioware the beniefit of the doubt and assume the latter for now.

Are you talking about this poll? If so, I created that, not Bioware. I thought it was a good idea to have numbers on our side showing that most of us want a new ending, not just an explanation of the current one. I was getting a vibe from Dr. Muzyka's blog post that they were considering an explanation, not a change.

[naes1984]

We don't want your brilliant artistic vision CLARIFIED. We are not stupid and I think trying to salvage the current endings by explaining how brilliant they are actually makes things worse. See George Lucas in explaining how Han actually shot first and was always intended to shoot first.

[TSC_1]

Yuoaman wrote...

"@asenza We are adding new content that is being created specifically to address the passionate outcry of our fans. That is news."

Well hello there, @masseffect.

Well... that is something.

Modifié par TSC_1, 21 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Trojan_33]

Have y'all REALLY looked at the original statement?

Read
the whole statement from them and you will see that they aren't going
to change a thing if they can get away with it.

Examples: "criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion"
                    "we will listen and respond to constructive criticism" (assumed only)
                    "we will not support or respond to destructive commentary".

These basically say that anyone
who thinks they failed at the ending are nerdraging fanboys, that they
are going to provide explanations for their ending(s) and give us some
closure(aka not changing, just explaining it to us simpletons), they
will only listen to positive posts so if you said the ending was
horrible you will be ignored.

Modifié par Trojan_33, 21 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[Conspicuous Cake]

RussianOrc wrote...

Thrawn81 wrote...

*image removed*

they dont change anything m8s!

So......back to the war.

Guys, remember to post a link to the image instead of embedding it, as it could be seen as spam.
We don't want our thread to be closed.

[Tasker]

I want an ending similar to how it was done in ME2... I want the people who live and the assets collected - to actually make an appearance in cutscenes in some meaningfull way that's personal to the player.

There should be enough variations of in game cutscenes and senarios based on series choices, surviving charactors and war assets, that no 2 people should get the same ending.

There should be the possibility of endings ranging from - "Darker than dark, bleaker than bleak" all the way to "Happy fluffy bunnys"

[FinalEndeavor]

guys if you are going to quote about the bioware writer(who knows if this is really genuine) could you please snip the entire wall of text and put what you are referencing. it takes up lots of space when you are quoting it

[The Big Palooka]

In response to the idea of additional content which 'clarifies' the current endings:

www.youtube.com/watch

[elirian_19]

Mulberry wrote...

http://www.reddit.co..._dr_ray_muzyka/
Patrick Weekes (bioware writer) posted this on Penny Arcade and then deleted it:

*snip*

Wow. Just wow.

And with that I say goodnight to you all. Only so much of this I can handle.

I'm still proudly holding the line with the rest of you.

[Chatboy 91]

Trojan_33 wrote...

Have y'all REALLY looked at the original statement?

Read
the whole statement from them and you will see that they aren't going
to change a thing if they can get away with it.

Examples: "criticism that has been delivered in the heat of passion"
                    "we will listen and respond to constructive criticism" (assumed only)
                    "we will not support or respond to destructive commentary".

These basically say that anyone
who thinks they failed at the ending are nerdraging fanboys, that they
are going to provide explanations for their ending(s) and give us some
closure(aka not changing, just explaining it to us simpletons), they
will only listen to positive posts so if you said the ending was
horrible you will be ignored.

Yeah, I made a comment about that in this post: http://social.biowar...157/25#10400389