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So we can't get the ending we want after all?


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#53676
VivaLaWhatsername

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N7_Sniper91 wrote...

To the people who are saying/thinking "Oh look, Ray Muzyka himself responded to us, that means we're getting new endings!", think again.

He clearly says they're going to offer "clarity" on the EXISTING endings, not add any new ones. Which means that chances are that they're trying to placate us by giving us some cheap "Epilogue-By-Text" after these crappy endings, instead of giving us what we were promised.

Don't just settle for any scraps they're willing to throw at us, because as I recall, we're here because we hated the endings and wanted what they promised us in the first place; multiple, DIFFERENT endings, and ones that actually made sense and provided closure.

The fight isn't over yet people. Hold The Line!


This.

#53677
Luiginius

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I find it funny that bw says they want to wait and wait for more people to finish the game to say anything definitive about the plot of me3. Meanwhile the more people finish the game the more the net seems to be filling with youtube vids, me mes, etc. about the ending.
This just might be turning into a snowball tumbling down a hillside. Gathering mass on its own.

Modifié par Luiginius, 22 mars 2012 - 12:50 .


#53678
Nilofeliu

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KHReborn wrote...

If somebody missed it:

An interesting article from Kotaku. (Yeah I didn't believe it either)

While reading I listened to this. (Has nothing to do with ME, but great to relax)


From Kotaku (link above)


Now people are complaining that, if BioWare messes with that ending, the company is surrendering their artistic integrity.
Readers have told me that this is a slippery slope. They've said that acquiescing to fans—some of them rude or overly entitled—who petition and Tweet and make a huge commotion about how a work of fiction ends undermines BioWare's position as independent-minded creators.

"It's not about which ending we get," an aspiring game designer named Jason Ragatz wrote to me on Twitter, "it's about the total disrespect and destruction of the artistic integrity of gaming's best."


According to whoever this designer is, it's ok it the company lies to us, makes false advertising and´promises they knew beforehand they wouldn't be able to accomplish, however, it is not ok for us to demand all those things we paid for when we bought the game.

With all due respect to the artistic community, which I know for a fact has great poeple in it (some of them my friends), I am getting sick and tired of the use of "artistic integrity" or "artistic license".  Someone posted some time ago that to buy Mass Effect 3 was to purchase a Rembrandt and receive a Picasso instead, since both are great works of art, but from completely different schools and styles. Others compared it to buying a Rembrandt and getting a kids drawning instead (I can relate to that too).

The problem is fact is not the artistic view, nor the artistic license nor the artistic integrity. The issue is receiving what we paid for We bought product A and were given product B instead. We don't care if many people believe B is better than A (though 90% belives A to be better) and do not care if the artist was expressing himself when he made B instead of A, or if by changing the product or making a new one it will compromise his artistic integrity. It doesn't matter because we paid for A, and now we are here asking to receive A.

Some of us , fans and customers, are even going as far as to accept to pay extra to get what we bought. (buying the new ending DLC) But again, we hear over and over how the change cannot be done because it hurts the artistic integrity of the writers and developers. Others, especially from the media and gaming sites have gone as far as calling us names because we believe we are "entitled" to the game. They believe that the game belongs to the publisher/developer and not us, gamers, and I will give them this point. We, as gamers, do not own the artistic view of the games we buy, HOWEVER, we are entitled to receive that which we paid for, not some travesty of it.

From Kotaku

"Artists don't lose their shine in my eyes if they decide that they care to entertain their audience by sometimes changing their work. Artistic integrity may be a virtue, but humility is not a vice. Nor is it a vice to be willing to change positions, to bend or to adjust or to evolve or to improve. That is something I cheer in my game developers as much as I do in my political leaders"


Nothing else needs to be said.


/Salute

#53679
Xyalon

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Evening all. For some strange reason I had a really hard time finding this thread in the forums. Had to go to my profile instead.

Anyway, apart from the somewhat pacifying, somewhat ambiguous Blog by the co-founder, has anything of great interest happened? (Sorry DJ, I know you hate that, but I can't see what is new and what is not in your list...)

#53680
nitefyre410

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"Clarify the Existing endings"

Bioware if you have to clarify it your doing it ...WRONG!

LOL..

#53681
WvStolzing

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Xyalon wrote...

Evening all. For some strange reason I had a really hard time finding this thread in the forums. Had to go to my profile instead.

Anyway, apart from the somewhat pacifying, somewhat ambiguous Blog by the co-founder, has anything of great interest happened? (Sorry DJ, I know you hate that, but I can't see what is new and what is not in your list...)


Two new polls:

https://www.facebook...50638744824285/
http://www.g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/ (scroll down a bit for this)

#53682
toffeetrooper

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Aeyl wrote...

toffeetrooper wrote...

just got in from work, what have i missed?


A statement from Mr. Muzyka

http://blog.bioware....012/03/21/4108/


"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April.  We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received.  This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."

time for a rant

To me that sounds like " we will let the players know why at the end we gave them no choice but to destroy the galaxey, nothing will be said untill the after the 30 day money back warranty has passed so we dont lose any money in mass refunds" and how can the M.E universe continue with no means of fast travel beetween the stars unless there talking about prequals.
I pesonally dont want to understand why i just commited mass genocide or at the least turned the entire gallacy to husks i would like an option to WIN weather my shep died or not and as for prequals whats the point when you know ultimatley your a mass murderer

rant over (sorry about the mass puns)

#53683
Aeyl

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N7_Sniper91 wrote...

To the people who are saying/thinking "Oh look, Ray Muzyka himself responded to us, that means we're getting new endings!", think again.

He clearly says they're going to offer "clarity" on the EXISTING endings, not add any new ones. Which means that chances are that they're trying to placate us by giving us some cheap "Epilogue-By-Text" after these crappy endings, instead of giving us what we were promised.

Don't just settle for any scraps they're willing to throw at us, because as I recall, we're here because we hated the endings and wanted what they promised us in the first place; multiple, DIFFERENT endings, and ones that actually made sense and provided closure.

The fight isn't over yet people. Hold The Line!


Yup.
Anyways, I'm off for the night.

Hold the line!

#53684
KaiserinKai

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Here is what I have to say to the whole art defense...

#53685
nitefyre410

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KaiserinKai wrote...

Here is what I have to say to the whole art defense...

 

Well played sir... well played. 

#53686
WvStolzing

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Nilofeliu wrote...

"It's not about which ending we get," an aspiring game designer named Jason Ragatz wrote to me on Twitter, "it's about the total disrespect and destruction of the artistic integrity of gaming's best."

According to whoever this designer is, it's ok it the company lies to us, makes false advertising and´promises they knew beforehand they wouldn't be able to accomplish, however, it is not ok for us to demand all those things we paid for when we bought the game.


The aspiring game designer must really have got himself noticed with that move.

#53687
VivaLaWhatsername

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Nightfire78 wrote...

zero punctuation did a ME3 review. I was worried he would annoy me (he sometimes does that :P) but I actually had to laugh a couple of times, so I thought I'd post the link (sorry if someone else already has, too many pages too fast for me to keep up).

www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/5497-Mass-Effect-3


Okay I actually couldn't take this seriously I just kept laughing.

#53688
Xyalon

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Thanks WV

#53689
-PG-Skyre

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Something I can't help but point out;
Ask 5 people who like the ending the following-
a) What they like about the ending.
B) What the ending means.

Then ask 5 of the "Retake" supporters the reverse-
a) What they hate.
B) What COULD it mean.

People that like it have several different ideas of what it means, but generally reply that they like how sad it is, or that it was a sudden twist. People that hate the ending can come up with a long list of "possible" meanings (Indoc Theory being one), and can give you a longer list about its problems and why they hate it.

So now we have 2 sides fighting. Side 1, fights for change. Side 2, fights to keep it the same. More thought is going into Side 1, where as Side 2 either insults Side 1 or just complains about how this is the end of the gaming world if BW gives in...

Hold the line guys 'n' gals.

#53690
Zhijn

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Aeyl wrote...

N7_Sniper91 wrote...

To the people who are saying/thinking "Oh look, Ray Muzyka himself responded to us, that means we're getting new endings!", think again.

He clearly says they're going to offer "clarity" on the EXISTING endings, not add any new ones. Which means that chances are that they're trying to placate us by giving us some cheap "Epilogue-By-Text" after these crappy endings, instead of giving us what we were promised.

Don't just settle for any scraps they're willing to throw at us, because as I recall, we're here because we hated the endings and wanted what they promised us in the first place; multiple, DIFFERENT endings, and ones that actually made sense and provided closure.

The fight isn't over yet people. Hold The Line!


Yup.
Anyways, I'm off for the night.

Hold the line!


Pretty much yes.

Just gotta hang in there till April and hear what they really have in mind.

#53691
Ronnocloki

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Honestly given the extant number of plot holes in the current endings I don't see how Bioware can provide believable clarity without rewriting them. Especially when you take into account that the other main complaint leveled at the current endings is the lack of impact from player choices which a "clarification" would do nothing to alleviate.

#53692
FinalEndeavor

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Ronnocloki wrote...

Honestly given the extant number of plot holes in the current endings I don't see how Bioware can provide believable clarity without rewriting them. Especially when you take into account that the other main complaint leveled at the current endings is the lack of impact from player choices which a "clarification" would do nothing to alleviate.


they have alot of work to do to clarify things with the current endings....just look at angry joe's 10 reason why we hate the endings....its all plot holes lol!!


Modifié par FinalEndeavor, 22 mars 2012 - 01:09 .


#53693
BuddhaGeek

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 This is the thing that gets me about being called the "vocal minority" or being referred to as "some players"....

In the television show Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?, you have the option of polling the audience for the correct answer if you don't know it.  Now, it's a good strategy to wait until you have a really hard question to use it because the collective ideas of the audience are almost always correct.  If 80% of the audience says that out of answers A,B,C, and D that the answer is D, then it would be in your best interest to choose D. Yes, the majority of America is not participating in this, but the results can at least give you a good idea of the path to choose.

Now, I personally see the results of all these polls to be along those same lines.  Not everyone who has bought the game has answered these polls or voiced their opinions, but when each poll shows an overwhelming majority of those who DID answer the poll feel that the endings need a serious overhaul, then that should be a good indicator of how things are supposed to go?  To ignore those facts and merely acknowledge and applaud what you want to hear is not a good thing.

Sorry if I'm rambling.  This thought just popped into my head after skimming through the fan reviews post.

#53694
Computim

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Some of you will probably disagree with my opinion on what I'm about to say.

I'd like to start off by congratulating everyone who held the line. You guys are the only reason we've succeeded. We may not have gotten everything we wanted.. but in the end EA and Bioware customer service have acknowledged our problems and are going to work on a solution that pleases as many people as possible... especially those of us who stood up, made a bunch of noise and caused someone to finally come over to see what the fuss was about.

After having spent most of the day reading opinions of the press (the same press who supports EA) and their support of changing the idea, after having seen various associations that EA is a member of say that they would be changing the ending, after having seen my own Facebook thread in which everyone is convinced that they'll be changing the endings, I'm confident enough that they will at least compromise with us (which in the end is as much as I could really ask for).

There have been sacrifices made along the way. We've donated over $77,719.50 at this point to a charity, over a total over just over a week.. that's incredible, so incredible that even some political campaigns and publications were taking notice this week.

We've made our voice heard, to the point that we overrode the reviews of a gaming press that took notice, and was put on notice that we wouldn't stand for their biased reviews anymore. Along the way we met some amazing journalists as well who shared our story, and some who told their own stories and stories we didn't even think of. We've put the publishers on notice that, even if your reviewers are in your pocket, your clients are the gamers, and without them, you have no business.

We met a few excellent members of the Bioware Staff.. I'd like to thank Jessica Merizan again, as well as Stanley Woo and RaenImrahl of the moderators for engaging with the community. Without you three I guarantee this would have been uglier and far more damaging to Bioware than it was. Your company, the community, and I owe you a debt of gratitude. I want to thank you Bioware for letting us use your forums too. Most companies wouldn't allow this kind of boycotting protest on their own property. Whoever decided to let this happen needs their own parking space... or at least a Tim Horton's Coffee if they already have one.

I think, most telling about this movement, is we were so united that we went from a forum thread, and in less than seven days we were a global story. We've had members here interviewed on BBC, MSNBC, we've had stories on CNN. I've never been an activist, I've never really even stood up for that sort of thing, however I'm proud of my contribution, proud of everyone who came here, and I'm happy to say that, looking back on our actions, I have no regrets about my comments, my criticism, and my actions.

Where do I go from here? Well, I'm not done holding the line. I'll be here still, but you'll notice my stance, unless Bioware manages to come out and say completely opposite of what they've said today, will be more positive to the company, to buying new games, to supporting their business as they're going to be supporting the community. I plan to buy ALL of the Mass Effect DLCs simply because I love the story, and I'm sure that, with the community's input and if they don't cut corners, they'll put out something that will ensure Mass Effect becomes one of the defining games, if not THE defining game of this decade. I hope to see more from the Mass Effect universe in the future.

I'm also looking forward to upcoming Command & Conquer Generals 2. EA's Simcity (5), future releases for the Sims series, upcoming episodes and patches for Star Wars: The Old Republic, and countless other games, of which I can't even remember all of them at this point because EA is such a staple in my gaming life.

Did we win? Yes, I think we did. Much like the war with the reapers it's a bit bittersweet, but with a lot more colour on our ending. I'm disappointed we had to go to these lengths to get Bioware to hear and admit our concerns with their game.

I hope, in the future Bioware AND EA will both realize that the gaming community are customers, clients.. and we deserve to have your most professional product you can release. You wouldn't expect us to give you 9/10ths of our money, we expect you not to give us 9/10ths of your games.. and whatever you do, just be honest with us. If you advertise that a game doesn't have an A,B,C ending and in the end you have a total of three choices to make in the final dialogue, your company culture should be such that someone should be able to go "Uh.. what?" without fearing getting fired, or bad reviews..etc. Company culture will determine how good your games are, EA let them make their games, don't bring your fiscal year end into a narrative.

I'll end off by saying, congratulations, once again to everyone here. I realize not everyone thinks we've won yet, but I guarantee that EA/Bioware will not do anything, at this point, to jeopardize the precarious peace we've forged today. They have far more to lose than we do by not doing right by us.

I'll be around, commenting here and there, providing links and such, and if Bioware does something dumb, I'll probably rage like everyone else :)

We held the line... and I totally want a T-shirt that says that.
-Tim

Modifié par Computim, 22 mars 2012 - 01:08 .


#53695
firstarioch

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Can't get Von Diesel on board. His publicist says that he is too focused on new Riddick.
Which basically says buzz off we will not do nothing as we are doing our own thing.

What other actors would you guys suggest who are gamers and fit the cool factor who we can get on board?
has to Maximum middle age and hip.
TIMES AND Guardian hopefully tomorrow.

#53696
DivergentZen

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It's aggravating to see bloggers and writers explaining the situation as the fanbase not being happy with how the series ended, saying we think it was too bleak, too ambiguous, etc. And then claiming artistic integrity as a reason to not change the ending.

They seem to always fail to understand that, while all those complaints are true, the main reason we are all ticked off, I believe, is we were promised PRODUCT FEATURES that have been promoted since the first game and were not delivered. And by product features, I am referring to multiple distinct endings based on the players choices. I'm thrilled Bioware and others loves the ending. More power to all of them. Now, give us the other 15! It's not hard. Bioware has been doing it since the original Baldur's Gate series. And they did it in DA:O as perfectly as I had ever seen.

I'm glad we finally got a response about the efforts to revise/clarify/whatever the ending, but I'm not holding my breath. But I do find it empowering to remember that if I don't like what they may eventually offer us, I don't have to buy it or download it. I won't be subject myself to such disappointed twice.

Lastly, assumign this is resolved well, Marauder Shields should be made a playable MP character (even if it doesn't make sense). It would just be a good olive branch.

#53697
-PG-Skyre

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https://twitter.com/...un/bestblue.jpg

#53698
VivaLaWhatsername

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BuddhaGeek wrote...

 This is the thing that gets me about being called the "vocal minority" or being referred to as "some players"....

In the television show Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?, you have the option of polling the audience for the correct answer if you don't know it.  Now, it's a good strategy to wait until you have a really hard question to use it because the collective ideas of the audience are almost always correct.  If 80% of the audience says that out of answers A,B,C, and D that the answer is D, then it would be in your best interest to choose D. Yes, the majority of America is not participating in this, but the results can at least give you a good idea of the path to choose.

Now, I personally see the results of all these polls to be along those same lines.  Not everyone who has bought the game has answered these polls or voiced their opinions, but when each poll shows an overwhelming majority of those who DID answer the poll feel that the endings need a serious overhaul, then that should be a good indicator of how things are supposed to go?  To ignore those facts and merely acknowledge and applaud what you want to hear is not a good thing.

Sorry if I'm rambling.  This thought just popped into my head after skimming through the fan reviews post.

Sorry just though I would add this, due to your Who wants to be a millionaire? analogy hehe/ Also I agree with you completely and I said something smaller yet similiar a wee while ago.
http://i1192.photobu...90/a04022fd.jpg

#53699
Major Swift

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BuddhaGeek wrote...

 This is the thing that gets me about being called the "vocal minority" or being referred to as "some players"....

In the television show Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?, you have the option of polling the audience for the correct answer if you don't know it.  Now, it's a good strategy to wait until you have a really hard question to use it because the collective ideas of the audience are almost always correct.  If 80% of the audience says that out of answers A,B,C, and D that the answer is D, then it would be in your best interest to choose D. Yes, the majority of America is not participating in this, but the results can at least give you a good idea of the path to choose.

Now, I personally see the results of all these polls to be along those same lines.  Not everyone who has bought the game has answered these polls or voiced their opinions, but when each poll shows an overwhelming majority of those who DID answer the poll feel that the endings need a serious overhaul, then that should be a good indicator of how things are supposed to go?  To ignore those facts and merely acknowledge and applaud what you want to hear is not a good thing.

Sorry if I'm rambling.  This thought just popped into my head after skimming through the fan reviews post.

not rambling at all lol, its a good thought and exactly how i feel and i agree with you

#53700
firstarioch

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Write me suggestions here. I will check incthe morning. Tired.
Hold the line troopers.