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So we can't get the ending we want after all?


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#54626
Goikiu

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TumblingBumblebee wrote...

Lately every time I pop in to check this and other threads... I get the impression things got quieter... slowed down and there are less and less active people. It looks like many of us are just waiting for things to move and that is actually making us less "visible".
The poll on gamefaqs is just depressing but I guess we can't no longer gather as many people as those who voted on the first polls about the ending...

Keep it civil and Hold the line I guess.


That's not completly true.
When there are news a storm is coming :mellow:.
We've seen this yesterday with Bioware blog news and we will see that those days, even after pax (we've got soldiers going here). :mellow:

#54627
KLGChaos

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Something to remember about the gamefaqs poll-- they are also owned by gamespot, so some bias is to be expected. Journalism is so far from objective it's not even funny. :P

#54628
Hiyanu

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TumblingBumblebee wrote...

Lately every time I pop in to check this and other threads... I get the impression things got quieter... slowed down and there are less and less active people. It looks like many of us are just waiting for things to move and that is actually making us less "visible".
The poll on gamefaqs is just depressing but I guess we can't no longer gather as many people as those who voted on the first polls about the ending...

Keep it civil and Hold the line I guess.


It does get tiring, many will return come April when folks want to play ME3 again after their first playthrough and want to see if changes have been made, along with PAX coming. Even with slowing down we are still many.

#54629
SomeKindaEnigma

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Giguelingueling wrote...

Koobarex wrote...

It's that time again. ;)

Marauder Shields: Shepard's Last Foe
EPISODE 9: The Thin Blue Line

In this episode... We take a peek inside the Alliance's flagship and join a familiar character in a gutsy decision. To ensure the best reading experience, play "Two Steps from Hell - Heart of Courage" in the background while reading. ;)


Open the full version here:  http://i.imgur.com/TmzoQ.jpg

If you have any problems viewing the full version, find it at my DA profile, here: http://koobismo.deviantart.com (be sure to comment or say "hi" :)). 

Previous episodes:
Episode 1: http://i40.tinypic.com/34eouuu.jpg
Episode 2: http://i.imgur.com/SU6Lq.jpg
Episode 3: http://i.imgur.com/eBrxF.jpg
Episode 4: http://i.imgur.com/59whH.jpg
Episode 5: http://i.imgur.com/6zyaQ.jpg
Episode 6: http://i.imgur.com/kw8MV.jpg
Episode 7: http://i.imgur.com/W2hfn.jpg 
Episode 8: http://i.imgur.com/ySrw1.jpg
Also available on: http://koobismo.deviantart.com

HOLD THE LINE!

P.S. 
As a set of additional info - I will be no longer able to produce these daily, the process is getting a little lengthy and complicated and I want to keep it that way to ensure I can tell the stories I really want to. As of today, expect these comics every 2 days.

:wizard::wizard::wizard:


Those are simply amazing :wub:


Hahaha I am so glad I randomly checked this thread on page 2186 and found this post :D

#54630
-PG-Skyre

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Ok, key questions people need to ask-
Is Bioware a "for profit" organisation?
Is Bioware facing complaints over something they "create" and sell?
Is Bioware taking the money WE earned?

The answer to all these is "Yes".

First; As a for profit organisation, they have to look after their income and therefor are expected to bend to consumer demand...every company does it.

Second; If an organisation sells something which they have advertised about and made promises for, but does not meet the requirements they themselves set, it is the consumers right to either get this corrected or to get their money back (like returning something that didn't work when you purchased it).

Finally, they are taking OUR money for this. Who says they work harder than us? I work 40hrs at an abattoir (google it), plus study for 2 degrees (both in the IT field). I'm one of many. People have the right to complain about my work, especially customers, so what makes game developers so different than anyone else?


Side note- The "art" excuse is redundant and flawed. Art for the sake or art, can not be changed or complained about. "Art" that is made for profit, and for a consumer who has expectations which the artist themselves set, can be changed because it is more a product than art.

If I'm wrong, then from now on, I claim all my programming assignments are "art" and my teacher has to give me top marks for it. And anyone complaining about me not working at work, I'm an artist, don't rush me.

Modifié par -PG-Skyre, 22 mars 2012 - 09:36 .


#54631
chmarr

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*raises a glass for Marauder Shields"

he died trying to stop us from seeing just how bad the ending was, maybe he should have used a ROCKET LAUNCHER instead of a freaking pistol.

Marauder Shields gone but NOT FORGOTTEN

#54632
Iconoclaste

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Hexi329 wrote...

You know, I see a lot of talk about "video games as art" from a variety of people who attempt to defend Bioware's right to defend their product from change.

Can anyone please clarify/define what the concept of "art" entails for me? Currently, "artistic vision" and "artistic integrity" appear to be buzzwords, poorly defined, thrown around by people both opposing and supporting potential changes to the game.

Art is communication, and it has to follow the rules of communication. Artists emit art, audience receives it. No audience, no point to emit art. Audience gives feedback, or else it's not communication. Artists who can live without audience and feedback are not artists : they're people who solely practice auto-satisfaction.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 22 mars 2012 - 09:36 .


#54633
MordiMoro

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The polls are wrong for me ...

If you ask "did you like the ending?" the majority are not.
If you ask "do you want to change the ending?" you pass the idea of legitimate artistic choice, so no they do not win.

you are passing the idea that we are spoiled children, that we did not like the ending because we wanted more. :?

Modifié par MordiMoro, 22 mars 2012 - 09:36 .


#54634
milena87

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SomeKindaEnigma wrote...

Hahaha I am so glad I randomly checked this thread on page 2186 and found this post [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

me too! Part 9 of the Marauder Shields comic is really epic, I love it :D

Modifié par milena87, 22 mars 2012 - 09:36 .


#54635
evisneffo

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Hexi329 wrote...

Can anyone please clarify/define what the concept of "art" entails for me? Currently, "artistic vision" and "artistic integrity" appear to be buzzwords, poorly defined, thrown around by people both opposing and supporting potential changes to the game.


The problem is no-one can agree on what art is in this context. I don't have the intellectual patience to construct a detailed argument, but to me "artistic integrity" is being used here as "I made this, it can only be appreciated in this way."

I honestly have no problem calling video games art. They are a labour of love, technical / visual / aural / story-telling masterpieces that impress you as you immerse yourself in them. What I don't believe is that this automatically leads to a rock-solid "artistic integrity" argument against change. Comparing a game to something inherently static like a painting is silly (not to mention those "modern art installations" they have these days that are as dynamic as any gameplay. What's the argument for those?)

#54636
Ampmaster

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-PG-Skyre wrote...

Ok, key questions people need to ask-
Is Bioware a "for profit" organisation?
Is Bioware facing complaints over something they "create" and sell?
Is Bioware taking the money WE earned?

The answer to all these is "Yes".

First; As a for profit organisation, they have to look after their income and therefor are expected to bend to consumer demand...every company does it.

Second; If an organisation sells something which they have advertised about and made promises for, but does not meet the requirements they themselves set, it is the consumers right to either get this corrected or to get their money back (like returning something that didn't work when you purchased it).

Finally, they are taking OUR money for this. Who says they work harder than us? I work 40hrs at an abattoir (google it), plus study for 2 degrees (both in the IT field). I'm one of many. People have the right to complain about my work, especially customers, so what makes game developers so different than anyone else?


Side note- The "art" excuse is redundant and flawed. Art for the sake or art, can not be changed or complained about. "Art" that is made for profit, and for a consumer who has expectations which the artist themselves set, can be changed because it is more a product than art.

If I'm wrong, then from now on, I claim all my programming assignments are "art" and my teacher has to give me top marks for it. And anyone complaining about be not working at work, I'm an artist, don't rush me.


Freaking this! The Mona Lisa was a commissioned piece, if Da Vinci had screwed it up his patron would have had him paint it again. "No like this Leo, yeah that's a better shade of red, go with that"

#54637
nitefyre410

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Iconoclaste wrote...

Hexi329 wrote...

You know, I see a lot of talk about "video games as art" from a variety of people who attempt to defend Bioware's right to defend their product from change.

Can anyone please clarify/define what the concept of "art" entails for me? Currently, "artistic vision" and "artistic integrity" appear to be buzzwords, poorly defined, thrown around by people both opposing and supporting potential changes to the game.

Art is communication, and it has to follow the rules of communication. Artists emit art, audience receives it. No audience, no point to emit art. Audience gives feedback, or else it's not communication. Artists who can live without audience and feedback are not artists : they're people who solely practice auto-satisfaction.

 

^ This... If  Colin was as smart as he thinks he is- he  would understand this...obiviously he does not..  


Good Morning all 

#54638
Alikan

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Hexi329 wrote...

You know, I see a lot of talk about "video games as art" from a variety of people who attempt to defend Bioware's right to defend their product from change.

Can anyone please clarify/define what the concept of "art" entails for me? Currently, "artistic vision" and "artistic integrity" appear to be buzzwords, poorly defined, thrown around by people both opposing and supporting potential changes to the game.


Exactly :)

When someone uses the art argument like that means all "art" is automatically good and not to be criticized i just laugh.

Alot has been said here already and elsewhere about art as an commercial product and how the best artists actually wants criticizm.

Using the art argument is just a rather transparent attempt to squash complaints/criticizm

Currently watching this:  , go to 01:10. Artistic vision anyone?Image IPB

#54639
B.Shep

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Goikiu wrote...

snip


That's not completly true.
When there are news a storm is coming :mellow:.
We've seen this yesterday with Bioware blog news and we will see that those days, even after pax (we've got soldiers going here). :mellow:

I am still here holding the line.:wizard:
Not going to give up until Bioware make a official statment about the ending problem

#54640
Tony208

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If there was a checklist for bad endings, Mass Effect 3 would meet every requirement. It's that bad, it fails on practically every level.


Love the Marauder Shields comics! He even sheds a tear in episode 2.

#54641
Iconoclaste

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Video games cannot be compared to paintings : you see a painting before you decide to buy it or not. You cannot see the whole game before you buy it. That's it. At the very best, you will get reviews or hints of the contents, but that really is not the same as evaluating the whole content before making a choice.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 22 mars 2012 - 09:42 .


#54642
Phaedros

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Gamasutra have chimed in with this:

www.gamasutra.com/view/news/163490/Opinion_Mass_Effect_3s_promise_of_ownership_is_one_it_couldnt_keep.php

Thought some might find it interesting.

#54643
Seryndras

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Iconoclaste wrote...

Video games cannot be compared to paintings : you see a painting before you decide to buy it or not. You cannot see the whole game before you buy it. That's it.


And you usually don't stare at a painting for 100 hours.

Honestly, games and painting have absolutely nothing in common. One hangs there, on a wall, and people can go "Aww, great!" and move on.

The other is meant to entertain me, and I pay money to be entertained and not fed artsy stuff. I suck at artsy stuff!

There are no games hanging on a wall in the Louvre, and I doubt there ever will be.

#54644
-PG-Skyre

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Iconoclaste wrote...

Video games cannot be compared to paintings : you see a painting before you decide to buy it or not. You cannot see the whole game before you buy it. That's it.


Not just that, games are a commercial product. Produced to be sold. Therefor, it has to follow the same standards set that all other commercial products must meet.

It must work. Its must meet the standards it sets. And customers have the right to complain about a product that does not meet what would be considered "working requirements" (which in this case is the fact that the ending didnt even try to meet the level or requirements EA/BW was advertising it for).

*Edited for typo.

Modifié par -PG-Skyre, 22 mars 2012 - 09:45 .


#54645
Hendrik.III

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SomeKindaEnigma wrote...

Giguelingueling wrote...

Koobarex wrote...

It's that time again. ;)

Marauder Shields: Shepard's Last Foe
EPISODE 9: The Thin Blue Line

In this episode... We take a peek inside the Alliance's flagship and join a familiar character in a gutsy decision. To ensure the best reading experience, play "Two Steps from Hell - Heart of Courage" in the background while reading. ;)


Open the full version here:  http://i.imgur.com/TmzoQ.jpg

If you have any problems viewing the full version, find it at my DA profile, here: http://koobismo.deviantart.com (be sure to comment or say "hi" :)). 

Previous episodes:
Episode 1: http://i40.tinypic.com/34eouuu.jpg
Episode 2: http://i.imgur.com/SU6Lq.jpg
Episode 3: http://i.imgur.com/eBrxF.jpg
Episode 4: http://i.imgur.com/59whH.jpg
Episode 5: http://i.imgur.com/6zyaQ.jpg
Episode 6: http://i.imgur.com/kw8MV.jpg
Episode 7: http://i.imgur.com/W2hfn.jpg 
Episode 8: http://i.imgur.com/ySrw1.jpg
Also available on: http://koobismo.deviantart.com

HOLD THE LINE!

P.S. 
As a set of additional info - I will be no longer able to produce these daily, the process is getting a little lengthy and complicated and I want to keep it that way to ensure I can tell the stories I really want to. As of today, expect these comics every 2 days.

:wizard::wizard::wizard:


Those are simply amazing :wub:


Hahaha I am so glad I randomly checked this thread on page 2186 and found this post :D


Especially episode 4 & 5 made me laugh real hard, :lol:
Great work this.

Hold the line! For Shepard and Marauder Shields!

#54646
Goikiu

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Phaedros wrote...

Gamasutra have chimed in with this:

www.gamasutra.com/view/news/163490/Opinion_Mass_Effect_3s_promise_of_ownership_is_one_it_couldnt_keep.php

Thought some might find it interesting.


Read it, i liked it.
Well isn't really taking side, but a neutral article is better than nothing i suppose.

#54647
Phoenix NL

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Good lord, I just made the mistake of reading some of the comments from people at the bottom of one of the articles. I knew that there were people against changing the ending (that is completely their right) but I didn't realize the level of venom that is being aimed in our direction. I have been nothing but polite, courteous and at least tried to be thoughtful in the way that I have presented my opinion and reasons for disliking the ending. It's sad to see such a level of intolerance and anger from others who are not even taking the time to consider what our points are, just rushing in headlong with abuse.

*sigh*

sometimes I lose faith in people. The only thing I can say is I haven't treated anyone out there with disrespect or not respected that their opinion may differ from mine - can people please at least attempt to return that courtesy? I'm not a bad human being, I don't kick puppies in my spare time so please take the time to read up before using your poisoned pen.

#54648
CitizenSnips28

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Haha hey I wouldn't get overly worried about that poll. Couple things. First its horribly worded. Basically are you an angry fan wanting to bully Bioware around or do you believe in art. Okay not quite THAT bad but you get the picture. Secondly alot of those voting to keep the endings might not necessarily like the endings, just that fans shouldn't have the power to force something on Bioware. Even wording it about as favorably as they can they're neck and neck. I wouldn't put too much stock unless we start seeing a larger trend. Also those worried about slacking energy, its mostly just that we are in a wait and see mode. We now know BW has been paying attention to us and they've hinted at giving us what we want. Now we're mostly just waiting for official announcements which they claim will come early April. I think we're in good shape.

#54649
Feraiin

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Hexi329 wrote...



You know, I see a lot of talk about "video games as art" from a variety of people who attempt to defend Bioware's right to defend their product from change.

Can anyone please clarify/define what the concept of "art" entails for me? Currently, "artistic vision" and "artistic integrity" appear to be buzzwords, poorly defined, thrown around by people both opposing and supporting potential changes to the game.


I am in no way an expert on art theory, but I happen to be an artist (digital painting). Basically the people using the art-defense for the ending are saying that Bioware's writers wanted to tell a specific story, to give us players their vision, with a chosen symbolism and message to it and that we as mere fans have no right to ask them to change the ending because that would mean for the writers as artists to retcon their work. (Which somehow would lessen it?)

A comparison would be me doing an illustration with a certain symbolism, look or message in mind. I'm the one who's making it, so I have complete freedom of choice what I do with my artwork. 
Now I put it up on my website and a lot of people viewing it don't like it.
Maybe they don't like the choice of colour, maybe the motive doesn't appeal to their taste, BUT: That is personal preference. And I, as the artist, don't have to care at all about that. After all, I made, my taste is what counts.

But NOW another group of people come along and tell me they don't like it. And their reasons are: The proportions are off. One hand is bigger than the other, the perspective is a bit messed up and despite the work being a really nice painting, some areas just look like I did not put as much effort into it as I did with the rest of the painting.

Now that is criticism I should pay attention to. Because it tells me I made mistakes on the technical side of things. I could of course say: That's intentional, it was meant to be abstract in those spots! But if the rest of the painting is a naturalistic image, that argument kinda falls flat. 
I especially need to heed that advice if the painting is a comissioned work, or if I plan to sell it.


The same goes for Bioware. Sure, they can do whatever they want with Mass Effect. They have the people who invented it and those very talented people should be able to put their visions into the game.
However, what we are asking of them is to change or replace the ending with a conclusion to Shepards story that does not only bring across the writers vision, but also lives up to the high standard Bioware have set themselves with their previous games. And that means that the story should wrap up with something well-written, not space magic. :wizard:


EDIT: Oh yeah, before I forget to mention it: Video-Games, which can be considered an art-form, are definitely not comparable to movies or books or paintings, due to their interactive nature and the enormous investment that players put into them.

Modifié par Feraiin, 22 mars 2012 - 09:54 .


#54650
Iconoclaste

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Best way to show support to a company is to tell them what they do right AND what they do wrong. Not telling them what is wrong is not giving them the means of avoiding it in the future. They want maximum income, and that's the only way to achieve it in the long term. Many do not understand this, it's quite simple, but they fear that voicing unsatisfactory issues will lead to hurting the company. Nonsense, short-sighted.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 22 mars 2012 - 09:51 .