101103 réponses à ce sujet

[Benathorn]

Phaedros wrote...

Gamasutra have chimed in with this:

www.gamasutra.com/view/news/163490/Opinion_Mass_Effect_3s_promise_of_ownership_is_one_it_couldnt_keep.php

Thought some might find it interesting.

That doesnt seem like a very nice article. Basically they are saying we got this way because Bioware spoiled their bratty fans and now other game companies should learn from this lesson? That just seems like an invitation to segregate gamers from game companies to where we have absolutly no choice on the matter. I love choice in games and have found very few that are like ME or DA and I love how Bioware has made them and allowed us to choose in our games, but I don't think they understand the big picture here.

[Hobbyman]

Don't be angry at intolerant people, firstly because you can't do anything about it and secondly because they probably are angry for other more serious reasons than this movement.

Just woke up, assumed control of my coffee and came to Hold The Line!

[Phoenix NL]

That Gamasutra article has not helped matters - "No one likes irrational, entitled audiences. But maybe in this case, it becomes clear how they get that way."

I have seen very very few peple who are irrational or acting entitled. Once again we're all being painted with the same brush with no one actually listening to what we are saying or how we are saing it.

[Stigweird85]

Personally I am getting a little bored of the whole thing;

We complained about the endings
We complained about no official responses
We complained about the official response
We are now bickering about who is/was right about any possible endings that we don't even know exist.

Bioware have asked us to trust them and I do, trust is a hard thing to gain and an easy thing to lose. They have asked for trust and I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Sure the endings could have been better but after 3 excellent games as a whole I think they deserve some trust. However it is a two way street, if they ask for trust and then don't deliver then they will find it very difficult to regain the trust.

Until we know there is little point speculating if it is/was the right decision to change the endings as we don't know if they are changing the endings. The current status is a scab on the Mass Effect franchise, constantly picking at it means it doesn't get a chance to heal.

[VivaLaWhatsername]

Phoenix NL wrote...

That Gamasutra article has not helped matters - "No one likes irrational, entitled audiences. But maybe in this case, it becomes clear how they get that way."

I have seen very very few peple who are irrational or acting entitled. Once again we're all being painted with the same brush with no one actually listening to what we are saying or how we are saing it.

Yeah it's like all sterotypes for instance:

"all Scottish people have red hair and wear kilts"

It's really annoying <_<

[TumblingBumblebee]

I'm going to take a break from all this... it's starting to take a toll on my health. I'll end up depressed for real if I keep reading comments from blind fools and people that could be described with harsher words... and I'll end up with a hole in my stomach from all the anger.

I'm sorry but I can't hold the line any longer... I'll try and come back as soon as I get better =/

Thanks everyone for bringing me hope, I wish all of you the best.

Keep it civil and hold the line...

[Iconoclaste]

Take the good and leave the bad : focus on the objective, Bioware is listening to us, since we are the customers. Third parties might wish to surf the media wave to gain visibility, but they have other interests than those of the status of Mass Effect, Bioware or its fanbase.

[Alikan]

Phoenix NL wrote...

That Gamasutra article has not helped matters - "No one likes irrational, entitled audiences. But maybe in this case, it becomes clear how they get that way."

I have seen very very few peple who are irrational or acting entitled. Once again we're all being painted with the same brush with no one actually listening to what we are saying or how we are saing it.

Its strange though, we/complainers are brushed across being entitled and irrational? When way more of the supporting the end crowd comes across like that and are much more uncivil in the main? Even much of the gaming media comes across as raging whiners in their support of the ending atm.

What happened to being objective? Unbias? Investigative journalism? Oh, wait, we are not talking journalism here, my mistake.

[VivaLaWhatsername]

TumblingBumblebee wrote...

I'm going to take a break from all this... it's starting to take a toll on my health. I'll end up depressed for real if I keep reading comments from blind fools and people that could be described with harsher words... and I'll end up with a hole in my stomach from all the anger.

I'm sorry but I can't hold the line any longer... I'll try and come back as soon as I get better =/

Thanks everyone for bringing me hope, I wish all of you the best.

Keep it civil and hold the line...

Aww, sorry to see you go but you health definitely comes first! get better soon and know that I am thinking of you. <3

[chmarr]

-PG-Skyre wrote...

Ok, key questions people need to ask-
Is Bioware a "for profit" organisation?
Is Bioware facing complaints over something they "create" and sell?
Is Bioware taking the money WE earned?

The answer to all these is "Yes".

First; As a for profit organisation, they have to look after their income and therefor are expected to bend to consumer demand...every company does it.

Second; If an organisation sells something which they have advertised about and made promises for, but does not meet the requirements they themselves set, it is the consumers right to either get this corrected or to get their money back (like returning something that didn't work when you purchased it).

Finally, they are taking OUR money for this. Who says they work harder than us? I work 40hrs at an abattoir (google it), plus study for 2 degrees (both in the IT field). I'm one of many. People have the right to complain about my work, especially customers, so what makes game developers so different than anyone else?


Side note- The "art" excuse is redundant and flawed. Art for the sake or art, can not be changed or complained about. "Art" that is made for profit, and for a consumer who has expectations which the artist themselves set, can be changed because it is more a product than art.

If I'm wrong, then from now on, I claim all my programming assignments are "art" and my teacher has to give me top marks for it. And anyone complaining about me not working at work, I'm an artist, don't rush me.

art is only art if its hanging up in a gallery.

take a van gogh, thats art, we can say its crap and an epilectic chimpanzi could do better.
from that statement we would have people defend the art and people who would defend my right to be a critic, could we change that art peice to suit both people, nope because then it would not be art

media art is a movie that hits all the right notes

now take the movie avatar.
is it art, maybe, to a director it is art but to us it is not
some people say movies are living art, well its only living art if it represents certain aspects of a non scripted real life adjusting peice.
did i like it, yes i did, did other people like it, yes and no
people hated it because it was nearly an "all digital movie" or it "lacked emtion" or it "lacked depth", can we change it, why YES we can, why and how is that?, well right now there are several versions of the same movie on the market, the director listened to the fans (not kidding james cameran really did btw) and he released longer version, taking out some parts that even the smallest of fans thought were pointless.

now take the gaming media (gets tricky here)
is it art?.......the answer is MAYBE
we have home computers and consoles, one you can mod games on the other you cant

games are not classed as art, there classed as a digital media outlet of entertainment.
the developer will see there work as a "masterpeice" but it ONLY becomes a masterpeice when there is a global agreement that it is as with ALL types of works (music, art, movies, books),

right now mass effect 3 is being hailed a worldwide success in sales, INDIPENDENT reviews have said it was an amazing game to play (untill the last 10-15mins) then it hit the buffers.
it got worldwide acclaim (for which we are still trying to figure out in what way)

the co-founders AND some of the staff are saying its "art" yet in reviews everywhere i havent seen the word art anywhere, unless you count the review for the artbook that comes with the collectors edtion.

mass effect 3 is not art, its a game, if this was art then we would be paying WAAAY more than £50 for it at the shops and we would put it in a sealed wall box to gaze at and not touch.

i could say my gaming rig was art and guess what, i would argue to ppl that it is art, but guess what..i'm not that ignorant.

bioware, the "art" excuse is bullsh*t so stop,

accept that what you have is a flawed incomplete product

admit you removed ESSENTAL content that made sense in the game to sell to us for more profit

admit you screwed up

admit that you love pinkie pie

ACCEPT the DESTRUCTIVE critisisim and open a dialog with us

STOP STALLING as this will NOT go away

remember, the longer you stall, the worse it will get

[Memengwa]

Hi guys, after few days of being away, I'm back. Has something new happened?

[kyg_20X6]

Feraiin wrote...

I am in no way an expert on art theory, but I happen to be an artist (digital painting). Basically the people using the art-defense for the ending are saying that Bioware's writers wanted to tell a specific story, to give us players their vision, with a chosen symbolism and message to it and that we as mere fans have no right to ask them to change the ending because that would mean for the writers as artists to retcon their work. (Which somehow would lessen it?)

A comparison would be me doing an illustration with a certain symbolism, look or message in mind. I'm the one who's making it, so I have complete freedom of choice what I do with my artwork. 
Now I put it up on my website and a lot of people viewing it don't like it.
Maybe they don't like the choice of colour, maybe the motive doesn't appeal to their taste, BUT: That is personal preference. And I, as the artist, don't have to care at all about that. After all, I made, my taste is what counts.

But NOW another group of people come along and tell me they don't like it. And their reasons are: The proportions are off. One hand is bigger than the other, the perspective is a bit messed up and despite the work being a really nice painting, some areas just look like I did not put as much effort into it as I did with the rest of the painting.

Now that is criticism I should pay attention to. Because it tells me I made mistakes on the technical side of things. I could of course say: That's intentional, it was meant to be abstract in those spots! But if the rest of the painting is a naturalistic image, that argument kinda falls flat. 
I especially need to heed that advice if the painting is a comissioned work, or if I plan to sell it.


The same goes for Bioware. Sure, they can do whatever they want with Mass Effect. They have the people who invented it and those very talented people should be able to put their visions into the game.
However, what we are asking of them is to change or replace the ending with a conclusion to Shepards story that does not only bring across the writers vision, but also lives up to the high standard Bioware have set themselves with their previous games. And that means that the story should wrap up with something well-written, not space magic. 


EDIT: Oh yeah, before I forget to mention it: Video-Games, which can be considered an art-form, are definitely not comparable to movies or books or paintings, due to their interactive nature and the enormous investment that players put into them.

Well said.

[lastpatriot]

Memengwa wrote...

Hi guys, after few days of being away, I'm back. Has something new happened?

Just a PR statement that "something" will come out in April.  Not sure what though.

[Hendrik.III]

TumblingBumblebee wrote...

I'm going to take a break from all this... it's starting to take a toll on my health. I'll end up depressed for real if I keep reading comments from blind fools and people that could be described with harsher words... and I'll end up with a hole in my stomach from all the anger.

I'm sorry but I can't hold the line any longer... I'll try and come back as soon as I get better =/

Thanks everyone for bringing me hope, I wish all of you the best.

Keep it civil and hold the line...

Nooooooo! Not another casualty.... but I understand if it's taking its toll on you health. Hope you feel better soon.

We will carry away our wounded and fill the gap in the line. We will hold the line for you. Don't worry.

Modifié par Hendrik.III, 22 mars 2012 - 10:02 .

[Silasqtx]

http://social.biowar...06/polls/30236/

The poll is the word.

[Welsh Inferno]

Mornin' folks. Any news over the the past 10 or so hours?

[Hendrik.III]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Mornin' folks. Any news over the the past 10 or so hours?

Renewed attacks on our position, a little confusion, but most of us our still standing strong!

[Iconoclaste]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Mornin' folks. Any news over the the past 10 or so hours?

42 pages to read in this forum alone.

[Nharia1]

xHezz90 wrote...

Yeah it's like all sterotypes for instance:

"all Scottish people have red hair and wear kilts"

It's really annoying <_<

Sadly I used to fit that sterotype... >> Till I dyed my hair teal...
Though I still break out the kilt every so often...

[Nharia1]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Mornin' folks. Any news over the the past 10 or so hours?

42 pages to read in this forum alone.

Only 42? I've got like... 50 something... not quite sure...

[-PG-Skyre]

bigstig wrote...
*Snipped*

I take it you haven't been on the recieving end of too many of Biowares stuff-ups?
This isn't the first time I've been screwed over. Its the same for many others.

1- "Massive Community Event"....for majority of the US only...which we learned the day it started (not the months back when the timer was always on our damn screen).

2- The Old Republics release. At first we were told we'd all get it at pretty much the same time, then we wouldnt, then we all got the email saying we could...only to get the "Not Available In Your Region" messages and told we had to wait another 3-4 months.

3- Dragon Age II...Do I even need to explain this one? lol

4- ME3s major letdowns at the end. Promises were made about us having a REAL choice. Instead, we got to choose between which color we wanted to make the galaxy blow up as...Blue, Green or Red.

And thats just to name a few.
I did trust BioWare back with the early Dragon Age and Mass Effect, and even before that (I have all of the Forgotten Realms games. Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale). I stopped trusting what they said during the ME2 period and I even forgave them for DA2...figured DA2 was a "one off"...now I realise that BioWare is slowly making bad choices its new habit, rather than great stories (which we see through most of ME3 that they still can do, if they try).

Anyways, sorry to seem annoying. But BioWare has done enough, they need to get a grip on who they used to be.

[Iconoclaste]

42+ pages in the last 10 hours, on this forum alone.

The pressure is now on the concept of "art", as it is used to define the right for video game developers to produce content without the end-users having a word to say. Nonsense that will quickly be debunked.

[Artemis_Fowl]

I tried to play ME3 multiplayer last night. It was like I had swallowed a living snake. It just felt wrong and for both of the matches which we won it just lacked something which it had before I made it to god child...thing. Urgency. The passion to do it, it was all just gone from my part.

[Welsh Inferno]

Nharia1 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
42 pages to read in this forum alone.

Only 42? I've got like... 50 something... not quite sure...

Yeah I think I'll pass on reading all that.... 

[Alikan]

Time for some entertainment:



Hold the line speach



Mass Deffect 7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw3f_UBZ0GQ

Garrus and Tali romance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVY2sTjeECk

slightly disturbing Joker and Mordin conversation...

Modifié par Alikan, 22 mars 2012 - 10:11 .