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[Debi-Tage]

Does anyone remember playing this mission in ME1?

http://masseffect.wi...Signal_Tracking

I was thinking about this earlier today and wondered if I could pick it apart and how it may have (or have not) related to the Catalyst in ME3...then I got sidetracked and never came back to it. My head hurts thinking about this game most of the time anymore...lolz

[Kyria Nyriese]

Aviditie wrote...

OpsRBest- no it doesn't surprise me. As Kyria notes, Citadel is plot unknown, and also has some really creepy aspects to it that make you wonder why all these intelligent species (Asari, Turians, Salarians) who warn you what a dangerous place the galaxy is... Well how they can't see something is wrong. I'm not saying Citadel as Catalyst is a plot hole. Although I think there are holes I wouldn't otherwise have noted -again as Kyria says- but can't help but pick at the game more now.

Anyway I digress over and over. The problem is that, as a conscious being, the Protheans scientists and then Shepard shouldn't have been able to just lock it out from calling it's own creations back. In fact, leavin reapers like Sovereign behind shouldn't even have been necessary because the citadel had access to so much information it could always call its creations forward. That's what I'm trying to say. Star Child isn't just deus ex machine. It's deus ex machine that breaks the whole first game.

You know I remember playing the original Mass Effect, and when we got to the Citadel, after the ooh and ahh wore off, I was like, 'OK so some race 50,000 years ago just left this place and the relays laying around, complete with custodians for anyone to find?  Something doesn't add up here.'  I don't know I've always questioned the Citadel and the Relays and what was what, there were a lot of things that didn't quite 'fit'.  However, Mass Effect was the first game in the series, so that's alright, because hey they have two other games to explain it all in.

[TamiBx]

Nevara wrote...

Agreed.  It's poor writing if done absolutely poorly.  Like they did in the case.  But you don't gain anything from Shep's death.  It's a cop-out.

I almost expected a victorious emergence like in ME1 with From the Wreakage playing in the background.:happy:

I read about the ending before I played it, so no hopes for me...

Someone mentioned in another thread that Bioware said they kept Virmire Surviver (Kaidan/Ashley) out of ME2 because they were important for ME3 plot, and...why were they important? Kill Udina?   I killed him myself. 

[Nevara]

TamiBx wrote...

Nevara wrote...

Agreed.  It's poor writing if done absolutely poorly.  Like they did in the case.  But you don't gain anything from Shep's death.  It's a cop-out.

I almost expected a victorious emergence like in ME1 with From the Wreakage playing in the background.:happy:

I read about the ending before I played it, so no hopes for me...

Someone mentioned in another thread that Bioware said they kept Virmire Surviver (Kaidan/Ashley) out of ME2 because they were important for ME3 plot, and...why were they important? Kill Udina?   I killed him myself. 

That's giving VS way too much credit as a psuedo-antagonist at the most.  By the end, they seemed more broken than Shep in some psychopathic vendetta sorta way.  Especially after Horizon.  I thought about giving Kaidan a xanax just to chill him out a touch.

I thought most of the characters were kind of pointless and others made for better second string NPCs.  I didn't think they could manage to go OOC so much with characters along with the ending and then say its deep artsy nonsense.  

[DJBare]

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[Kyria Nyriese]

TamiBx wrote...

Nevara wrote...

Agreed.  It's poor writing if done absolutely poorly.  Like they did in the case.  But you don't gain anything from Shep's death.  It's a cop-out.

I almost expected a victorious emergence like in ME1 with From the Wreakage playing in the background.:happy:

I read about the ending before I played it, so no hopes for me...

Someone mentioned in another thread that Bioware said they kept Virmire Surviver (Kaidan/Ashley) out of ME2 because they were important for ME3 plot, and...why were they important? Kill Udina?   I killed him myself. 

Yeah back when we were all not happy about the lack of the VS in ME 2... why can't we go back to those days .  Bioware said they had to keep the VS alive for some important role in ME 3, and since any and everyone could die in ME 2 they had to limit the role they played.  It seems that the political move of Udina making the VS a SpecTRe and trying to use them to take out Shepard, by playing on their suspicion of Cerberus involvment, thus allowing Cerberus to use the VS in the end to take out the Council.

I think I rambled there... sorry I do that

[VivaLaWhatsername]

Graywolf633 wrote...

^This, so much this! And when you watch a movie, read a book, or play a video game, you become attached to characters in a subtle way. In video games especially, the lines begin to blur where you begin and your character ends when it's so difficult to say "Shepard did this" than "I did this." As stated before, you become emotionally invested as humans are naturally emotional beings. That said, there is a time and place for emotion, but without that emotion, we wouldn't be where we are today. I don't even know where we'd be. So it makes me slightly upset when people (like my dad) say "Why are you so upset? It's just a video game. Get over it." I guess they just don't get it. By having our Shepard die, our Shepard fail, we die and fail, too, in a miniscule way. So in the end, this outrage shouldn't be at all unprecendented for BioWare after killing off everything we loved and held dear in this series. We'd have to be Reapers themselves in order to not care.

Video games just aren't supposed to reflect reality in that everyone dies and the world goes on. It's somewhere you're supposed to feel important, the all-powerful video game master as I so call myself sometimes. It's somewhere you're supposed to win and feel like you accomplished something. I just think BioWare lost sight of that in favor of "artistic integrity". Luckily, they still have a chance to rectify their mistake. I really hope they take it. 

Just let me know if I start getting carried away here... I should probably stop while I'm ahead, but I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.  

Yeah this is so right, and in a way it's a bit more powerful in Mass Effect because you not only control Shepard, you make Shepard look like whatever you want, and you as the gamer get to decide in almost all conversation's what Shepard will say or do. SO it only makes sense that you grow emotionally attached to the character you helped create.

Then there is the other characters, squad mates and other NPC's who you get to know, love and respect through out three games, obviously with them being such a major part of your experience (not to mention romances) you again grow emotionally attached to the characters, it's not weird, it's not stupid. It's natural and human, our emotions are what make us who we are, sure sometimes our emotions are irrational, but again we are only human.

How could Bioware NOT see this reaction coming? they not only killed off OUR character (Shepard) but they made Joker and your ground team sqaud mates cowards and deserters completely going against their natures!.

Anyway sorry to ramble on 

[XJ347]

Graywolf633 wrote...
 I didn't buy ME3 in order to feel depressed and betrayed at its conclusion.  

EXACTLY!!!!!

[Aviditie]

Kyria- I spent two hours w a friend of mine on xbox. He wasn't as into mass effect as a whole as I was. He thought the ending was really stupid but not worth bothering himself over and he just moved on to another game. He invited me to yell, scream, use whatever expletives I needed, whatever just to get back into video games again. (I couldn't play them at all for two weeks. I played 6 hours of new game plus and just quit in disgust.).

So what I'm getting to - it was only afte talking to him yesterday that I began to feel better. And that is, sadly, because he started pointing out how much picking at ME3 I could do if I wanted to. Then he just le me do it. For an hour. Like you are doing. It should have made it worse bc I loved the games so much. Instead it made it better. I can't just throw away the last 15 minutes and replace it with m own stuff. But! If I can throw away the whole game (despite the beautiful moments) - well then I can start to conceptualizer enjoying 1&2 again.

So I'm saying - if it leads you to pick at the whole game, but in picking at the whole game you can begin to dismiss it, well maybe that's our way to heal? Much like writing their own ending is for otherpeople?

[Ihatebadgames]

I was expecting a ending like ME2,Shepard and crew live or die based on your choices.For three games until the ending it's been kill the Reapers,at the end It's meld with the reapers,it's the best ending.What??

[ashley_actually]

I started playing ME2 again. I'm mostly having fun, but every now and then something reminds me of the ME3 ending and I shake my fist at the sky. At least if I mine all the planets, upgrade all the things, and do all the loyalty quests my Shepard gets a win.

I really hope BioWare decides to fix the ending so that there are real multiple endings. Happy, sad, good, bad, and everything in between. This could be the most replayable game series of all time. I don't understand why they wouldn't want to take this opportunity for a do-over and run with it.

[Aviditie]

XHezz90 - as usual I just agree with pretty much everything you say. I don't see how they could see this coming from the core fanase. Did they think we would be happy?

Or in awe of art? I mean, I mock thus word art a bit at this juncture - only bc I don't understand how this ending is especially artistic. It's not new. It's not sad but hopeful. It's not set up.

Did they want to break our hearts, rip out our guts and dance on them? What did they want us to think?

[DJBare]

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[Kyria Nyriese]

@Aviditie

I fully understand what you are saying, it's part of the reason I've been writing everything that I've been feeling down, and part of the reason I've been taking part in this forum. I am normally a relatively quiet person, outside of my friends and family I don't share much of anything. However, I needed to get this out of my system, because it was messing with my life, it was also keeping me from enjoying games, which has been my escape for close to ten years. It has helped considerably to do this, allowing me to get back into the games I enjoy.

I tend to internalize a lot of stuff. Which at least in this case (probably in more instances of my life but we're talking about ME 3) was really messing with my own mind set.

[Darth Garrus]

That's it for today. See you guys tomorrow. Good night.

Hold the line!

[Aviditie]

Ashley_actually: I am guessing that in the end whether or not they take the opportunity to really run with a fix to this ending will be a money judgement call? It takes so much time and money to put together co-hesice multiple endings... And I think they want the galaxy destroyed for the way they've decided to go artistically with a ME4 game.

And we've thrown a wrench in their new line bc we don't want our galaxy destroyed!!!

:-(

[VivaLaWhatsername]

Aviditie wrote...

XHezz90 - as usual I just agree with pretty much everything you say. I don't see how they could see this coming from the core fanase. Did they think we would be happy?

Or in awe of art? I mean, I mock thus word art a bit at this juncture - only bc I don't understand how this ending is especially artistic. It's not new. It's not sad but hopeful. It's not set up.

Did they want to break our hearts, rip out our guts and dance on them? What did they want us to think?

Yeah this is so true, I honestly cannot understand their "art" also they hide behind that as if art has never been criticised or changed.

Gaming shouldn't be about "artistic integrity", leave that to the people who actually know what art is.

[Nevara]

@ Kyria

I know how you feel completely. Before ME3, I barely said anything on BSN or any forum for that matter. And I couldn't talk to my spouse because it took him a week to finish the game so it was just brewing. But talking with everyone on the thread at varying points has been an outlet for some of the stress because its someone(s) I can commiserate with.

It got me to start writing again and I've started rewriting the ending to the game in a therapeutic sense. I still can't manage to play games right now, especially ME (I can't get off Eden Prime).

[ashley_actually]

Aviditie wrote...

Ashley_actually: I am guessing that in the end whether or not they take the opportunity to really run with a fix to this ending will be a money judgement call? It takes so much time and money to put together co-hesice multiple endings... And I think they want the galaxy destroyed for the way they've decided to go artistically with a ME4 game.

And we've thrown a wrench in their new line bc we don't want our galaxy destroyed!!!

:-(

Yeah sadly I think it will come down to money. I think they ran out of time and money  even with the delay and that's how we got stuck with the ending we have. The ending is just so rushed and tacked on. 
I really am starting to hate the words art, artistic, artistic integrity, artistically etc. Art doesn't mean you are above criticism. It's not a shield to hide behind. 

[Aviditie]

Yeah I wrote on here a couple nights ago about my complete breakdown into a ball of tears bc of what they did. Shepard gave up. Did more damage than the reapers could have. Ruined the galaxy. Not just a lack of victory, but a loss. And then she died. And her LI got off a runaway ship looking like he just saw (insert hottest movie star) in the buff. And the galaxy, well... Anyway. Yes, I internalized the whole thing.

And I've never posted on this forum until this game. Never criticized a game online. It's just... Well, a feat on Bioware's part to be sure, but...

[Graywolf633]

xHezz90 wrote...

Yeah this is so right, and in a way it's a bit more powerful in Mass Effect because you not only control Shepard, you make Shepard look like whatever you want, and you as the gamer get to decide in almost all conversation's what Shepard will say or do. SO it only makes sense that you grow emotionally attached to the character you helped create.

Then there is the other characters, squad mates and other NPC's who you get to know, love and respect through out three games, obviously with them being such a major part of your experience (not to mention romances) you again grow emotionally attached to the characters, it's not weird, it's not stupid. It's natural and human, our emotions are what make us who we are, sure sometimes our emotions are irrational, but again we are only human.

How could Bioware NOT see this reaction coming? they not only killed off OUR character (Shepard) but they made Joker and your ground team sqaud mates cowards and deserters completely going against their natures!.

Anyway sorry to ramble on 

Rambling? Not at all. I can certainly give you a run for your money. 

You hit the nail on the head by saying Mass Effect is a powerful series. Everything you listed is absolutely true as well. You choose how your Shepard will look, what they will do, what they will say, and in turn they become a part of you, whether that's paragon Shep acting out your stifled hero-complex or renegade Shep saying what you always wanted to say and screw the consequences.

And ... I don't know about you, but when I saw my paragon Shep, bloody and broken, asking the Catalyst how he can still stop the Reapers when his best friend and LI (Tali) just died (or so I believed at the time)... I wanted to cry. When he meekly listened to the Catalyst and chose 'Destroy,' I did cry. Because that wasn't him. This fictional being I had helped create wasn't himself anymore and had singlehandedly brought the galaxy to ruin, dying in the horrific process (No multiplayer at that point). There was no vindication in his death, save the fact that the Reapers would never terrorize the galaxy ever again. He had died, his friends had died, and everyone he had fought so hard to save was dead in the long run. No happy ending there, and no sense of closure. Unless BioWare was planning to wipe out all life in ME3 and start ME4 off with a clean slate for fresh ideas.

In reality, however, yes, BioWare did kill off every character we'd ever come to care about and love. Shepard's sacrifice was a major blow to me as a fan of the series, but it was their complete disregard for the lives of the characters he'd met along the way that really took the cake of my outrage. It was all so very nonsensical and anti-climactic. Anyone with a literature background can tell you why tragedies work: there's always something redeeming about the character's downfall, whether they learn an important lesson near their end or somehow make the situation of others better. There was none of this in the endings of ME3, which is why we all feel so depressed and let down at this point. And a happy ending would have been infinitely better than what we were given that we would probably have all bowed down before BioWare and worshipped them as master video game developers. 

So, yes, they should have seen this coming from a mile away. They exist as a video game company because we (as consumers) allow it, and they will end because we demand it (from poorly written plot conclusions and awful endings). Hopefully, it will not come to that as they can still redeem themselves in the eyes of many disappointed fans.

[Garlador]

Did my Shepard bring destruction to the galaxy on a scale far greater than the Reapers? Yes?

What the hell? I thought I was the hero of this story!

[Aviditie]

I wish we were as powerful as that. But there us a lot of money to be made from TPS with a little story thrown in. You can grind them out quickly and gamers who criticize them will just be labeled whiners, as long as the mechanics for shooting work well.

[TamiBx]

Garlador wrote...

Did my Shepard bring destruction to the galaxy on a scale far greater than the Reapers? Yes?

What the hell? I thought I was the hero of this story!

Haha, I know, right?
You are now the biggest evil on the galaxy: gotta kill everyone or make them robots. Thanks, Bioware <_<

[Kyria Nyriese]

Nevara wrote...

@ Kyria

I know how you feel completely. Before ME3, I barely said anything on BSN or any forum for that matter. And I couldn't talk to my spouse because it took him a week to finish the game so it was just brewing. But talking with everyone on the thread at varying points has been an outlet for some of the stress because its someone(s) I can commiserate with.

It got me to start writing again and I've started rewriting the ending to the game in a therapeutic sense. I still can't manage to play games right now, especially ME (I can't get off Eden Prime).

Yeah I do have ME 3 and Bioware to thank for that, they got me writing again.  Not sure if that's funny or sad.