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[Aviditie]

So maybe their vision for a broken galaxy mass effect 4 should take place in an alternate universe where the galaxy got blown to bits. I mean, playing as Shepard in 3 hardly leaves you feeling accomplished. And that is to set up their 4? If that's the case, how bad is that writing? Can't they just find a way to set up their 4 that doesn't make the first 3 pointless?

Obviously that's speculation. It's just that I re-read the Dr's statement and that's the track my thoughts took.

[Aviditie]

I'm out before I say something that gets me banned or the thread shut down. :-D

Thanks, all of you. At least the line stays strong. You're great!

[Graywolf633]

Aviditie wrote...

I wish we were as powerful as that. But there us a lot of money to be made from TPS with a little story thrown in. You can grind them out quickly and gamers who criticize them will just be labeled whiners, as long as the mechanics for shooting work well.

Without the RPG element, I don't think BioWare can compare to Call of Duty or even Uncharted of the PS3. ME controls seem too stiff in comparison. 

It could be a possibility, though. They lost sight of plot in Dragon Age II (which didn't bother me so much) to the disappointment of some fans. Now, they've done this and gotten outrage. With this kind of track record, their fanbase is going to dwindle. 

But you are right. Some gamers aren't so much about story anymore as they are about nonsensical action. *sigh*    

[Graywolf633]

Off to bed. Hold the line for me.
Wolf, out.

[WvStolzing]

Graywolf633 wrote...
So, yes, they should have seen this coming from a mile away. They exist as a video game company because we (as consumers) allow it, and they will end because we demand it (from poorly written plot conclusions and awful endings). Hopefully, it will not come to that as they can still redeem themselves in the eyes of many disappointed fans.

I'll shamelessly bump some of what I've written earlier:

The fact that the beginning and the end make no sense, while some of the individual quests are very well written provices VERY strong evidence for a thesis like this:

It was specifically those people who were responsible for the 'whole', that created this mess. They were most likely operating under considerations that had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STORY: for example, "make sure the buyer who is new to the franchise doesn't get bored in the first 10 minutes! (otherwise he'd just return the game)".

This 'external intervention' is very obvious in the beginning of ME2 as well. There's a YT video that's on DJBare's list of links, where this is analyzed in some detail. The death and resurrection of Shepard takes place/is explained in terms of thematically isolated bits of '...just so...' reasoning, which suggests, again, that someone just insertedthem into the story without much regard for what had been established in ME1.

Some of those 'insertions' may have taken place on EA's initiative (make sure you can fit that many DLCs in here; make sure there's enough explosions and over-the-top-awesomeness in the beginning), others, on the creative director's (we have to have this and this religious metaphor implemented here! we need to give precisely that kind of 'feeling' there, and so on.)

It's already difficult for people who create these games to have a 'unified' feel for particular stories, the way we as players are able to do. They have to work piecemeal, given the enormous amount of variables they have to take into consideration. (I think a very obvious example of piecemeal writing is the Liara romance in ME3. Most[certainly not all] of her behavior simply doesn't make sense for people who have 'romanced' her in ME1, and in LotSB.)

So people who are responsible for the 'whole' have to really, really care about how particular stories may unfold from that repository of possibilities, and really, really, really care about the thematic unity of the series. But instead, they seem to prioritize EA's concerns, and their creative contribution. In ME3, that kind of approach led to a disaster.

[DivergentZen]

Just a thought about the artistic integrity argument. Bioware could keep its artistic vision intact, while giving the fans unhappy with the ending what they want. How to do this?

Alternate Continuity

It works for DC/Marvel. Why can't it work for a game company? I know I would be interested in the Mass Effect Retake Universe.

[WvStolzing]

DivergentZen wrote...
Just a thought about the artistic integrity argument.

I think the best response to that is: How about some down-to-earth, 'everyday' sort of 'integrity'; the sort that tells you not to promise people one thing, and then give them something completely different.

[Missy_MI]

Aviditie wrote...
So maybe their vision for a broken galaxy mass effect 4 should take place in an alternate universe where the galaxy got blown to bits. I mean, playing as Shepard in 3 hardly leaves you feeling accomplished. And that is to set up their 4?

I've been thinking about this for awhile.  That we may not get any significant changes to the ending for ME3 because BioWare required a 'universe wipe' for ME4.

If that's true, I'd honestly rather they make ME4 a prequel that occurs before Shepard's lifetime or just start from scratch on a new IP.

Because in my opinion... whatever is left after the ending of the third game - ravaged and destroyed or this weird Other mixture of synthetic/organic... that's not the Mass Effect universe to me.  It's something completely unrecognizable, no matter what title they give the next game.

[WvStolzing]

Missy_MI wrote...
If that's true, I'd honestly rather they make ME4 a prequel that occurs before Shepard's lifetime or just start from scratch on a new IP.

Adventures of the young Anderson?

.......good luck getting old fans of the 'franchise' to buy and enjoy that.......<_<

[Missy_MI]

WvStolzing wrote...
Adventures of the young Anderson?

.......good luck getting old fans of the 'franchise' to buy and enjoy that.......<_<

You know, it's funny you say that.  I was talking to a co-worker (who also felt disappointed in the endings) and that was exactly his speculation on ME4.  Anderson did almost become a Spectre after all.  And Saren would be alive again as a bad guy.

But yeah, it's not like you wouldn't know how the events turned out, so it wouldn't really be a 'choice' game.  I dunno.  I always thought from the beginning BioWare had intended Mass Effect to be a trilogy and that was it.  Maybe it was just Shepard's story and I'm remembering wrong.

[Debi-Tage]

Garlador wrote...

Did my Shepard bring destruction to the galaxy on a scale far greater than the Reapers? Yes?

What the hell? I thought I was the hero of this story!

Actually you were the hero, we all were and are. Sadly, I am beginning to lean towards the idea that BW had really given up on Shepard by the time they starting, ehem..wrapping things up. Only a month before ME3 hit the shelves we have the Deception fiasco. I mean seriously....seriously!? Then if anyone remembers some of the live interviews and commentaries with the Devs during and around the time of ComicCon some of them would joke about how they have to sometimes go and check in with the Wiki to make sure they have accounted for plots, lore and story-based aspects. To me, at the time, it seemed kinda weird to say in the throws of production for a trilogy finale. They should have been fully engrossed in every tiny detail of everything at that point. I mean, its THEIR game right?

But I waved it off as them goofing around and complimenting the fans. But now that I think about it it just makes me suspicous...I mean, THEY were supposed to tell US how the story went, right (ahhh "artistic integrity")!? Not the other way around.

I believe they have simultaneously overestimated and underestimated the ME franchise. Underestimated in the sense that I really do not think they would have ever dreamed that the backlash would get this bad and they also underestimated the endearing love everyone had and has for the ME universe...the races, stories and friendships. The millions of Shepards out there.

They overestimated in the sense that, they thought they could have their cake and eat it too...dumb down the player agency just enough to take more control over the story, appeal to the shooter, MP crowd and EVERYONE would want the game!!  They thought the core fans would be happy with their little easter eggs and would just get over the plotholes and ambiguous ending once we "saw" the great things they have planned for the universe.

They really shot themselves in the foot becuase at this point I think they seriously failed to realize the effect that endgame would have on their most loyal players, the ones who were here from the beginning, when the graphics  and the game mechanics were at best, buggy.  We were here for the story, the idea of playing through three games as the same character - whose choices would matter and shape the galaxy in the end. It is a sad day when Bioware no longer produces some of the best RPGs out there, and instead loss sight of their amazing and unique vision in exchange for who knows what - GTA!? Yes, this argument IS about artistic integrity - the original vision of Mass Effect culminating as the worst ending in video game history. I hope all those at BW who abandoned that vision remember what got them their small fortunes when the money stops rolling in.

I wish for nothing more than to eat my own words. But I fear for BW and RPG gaming as a whole, and I am in a snarky mood playing THIS particular game.

[TamiBx]

 If they fix the ME3 ending, I will have to buy a N7 hoodie, replay ME1, ME2 and ME3 (maybe with a new character?)...hmmm....gotta make some plans right now and dream about it.

I really hope Bioware fixes the ending or I'll be forced to abandon my favorite video game of all times:crying:

[VivaLaWhatsername]

TamiBx wrote...

 If they fix the ME3 ending, I will have to buy a N7 hoodie, replay ME1, ME2 and ME3 (maybe with a new character?)...hmmm....gotta make some plans right now and dream about it.

I really hope Bioware fixes the ending or I'll be forced to abandon my favorite video game of all times:crying:

I was going to buy one of those cool N7 hoodies aswell, before I finished ME3 

I also really hope they fix this mess!

[Nharia1]

TamiBx wrote...

 If they fix the ME3 ending, I will have to buy a N7 hoodie, replay ME1, ME2 and ME3 (maybe with a new character?)...hmmm....gotta make some plans right now and dream about it.

I really hope Bioware fixes the ending or I'll be forced to abandon my favorite video game of all times:crying:

I'm with you on getting the hoodie.... and replaying the other games... If, and only if they fix the endings properly. Also I might, MIGHT pre order DA3... maybe... <_< once it gets closer to release time... For now I'm thinking of Assassin's Creed 3 and Resident Evil 6.

[TamiBx]

Nharia1 wrote...

I'm with you on getting the hoodie.... and replaying the other games... If, and only if they fix the endings properly. Also I might, MIGHT pre order DA3... maybe... <_< once it gets closer to release time... For now I'm thinking of Assassin's Creed 3 and Resident Evil 6.

I would hold off on DA3 pre-orders. Wait a couple of days and then buy it...so you won't have to go through ME3 all over again if it sucks 

[LethesDeep]

Debi-Tage wrote...

Garlador wrote...

Did my Shepard bring destruction to the galaxy on a scale far greater than the Reapers? Yes?

What the hell? I thought I was the hero of this story!

Actually you were the hero, we all were and are. Sadly, I am beginning to lean towards the idea that BW had really given up on Shepard by the time they starting, ehem..wrapping things up. Only a month before ME3 hit the shelves we have the Deception fiasco. I mean seriously....seriously!? Then if anyone remembers some of the live interviews and commentaries with the Devs during and around the time of ComicCon some of them would joke about how they have to sometimes go and check in with the Wiki to make sure they have accounted for plots, lore and story-based aspects. To me, at the time, it seemed kinda weird to say in the throws of production for a trilogy finale. They should have been fully engrossed in every tiny detail of everything at that point. I mean, its THEIR game right?

But I waved it off as them goofing around and complimenting the fans. But now that I think about it it just makes me suspicous...I mean, THEY were supposed to tell US how the story went, right (ahhh "artistic integrity")!? Not the other way around.

*snipped the part I agree with*

Deception was written by an outside writer and it showed. As for the devs having to look stuff up on the ME Wiki, well, imagine you created reality as we know it. Do you think you could remember everything you decided would be in this reality and how it would affect everything else? I know I wouldn't. Heck, I can barely remember all the things I've put into my fantasy world (for a novella) and all I have is one continent's geography, some metropolises, the weather patterns, the magic system, and the axis it has as it revolves around the sun. I still need to do races, animals, cultures, languages, the rest of the solar system, religious doctrines, nations, organizations, etc. And if I wrote a trilogy of novels in this universe I'd have to remove everything from my hard-drive just so I'd have more room for all the text files I'd need to keep track of everything. Give them a break because they used available resources to refresh their memories and for doublechecking - you can still yell at them for everything else though.

[18 Brains]

Debi-Tage wrote...


They really shot themselves in the foot becuase at this point I think they seriously failed to realize the effect that endgame would have on their most loyal players, the ones who were here from the beginning, when the graphics  and the game mechanics were at best, buggy.  We were here for the story, the idea of playing through three games as the same character - whose choices would matter and shape the galaxy in the end. It is a sad day when Bioware no longer produces some of the best RPGs out there, and instead loss sight of their amazing and unique vision in exchange for who knows what - GTA!? Yes, this argument IS about artistic integrity - the original vision of Mass Effect culminating as the worst ending in video game history. I hope all those at BW who abandoned that vision remember what got them their small fortunes when the money stops rolling in.

I wish for nothing more than to eat my own words. But I fear for BW and RPG gaming as a whole, and I am in a snarky mood playing THIS particular game.

This is exactly how I feel.  Played through the previous two multiple times with different characters and choices, my choices don't even matter in the end.  The final insult is to see the pitched ad at the end: the last words in the game's text are "downloadable content."

I played the games for the story, and felt nothing but utter betrayal at the end for all of the promises that they didn't keep.  I can only hope that they've "listened" enough to know that they have lost many loyal customers and fans of their franchise, but also that they can set it right.  We'll just have to wait until PAX in April; as my trust in them was unfounded in the final minutes of an otherwise great game, I expect the worst but hope for the best.

[Fox544]

I just noticed something funny. If you have all 3 games installed on the PC go check add/remove programs. ME1 and 2 list the publisher as BioWare however 3 lists EA. Don't know why that seems so funny.

[18 Brains]

WvStolzing wrote...

I think the best response to that is: How about some down-to-earth, 'everyday' sort of 'integrity'; the sort that tells you not to promise people one thing, and then give them something completely different.

^This.

Signing off for tonight.  Might actually get six hours in.

Hold the line.

[Nharia1]

TamiBx wrote...

Nharia1 wrote...

I'm with you on getting the hoodie.... and replaying the other games... If, and only if they fix the endings properly. Also I might, MIGHT pre order DA3... maybe... <_< once it gets closer to release time... For now I'm thinking of Assassin's Creed 3 and Resident Evil 6.

I would hold off on DA3 pre-orders. Wait a couple of days and then buy it...so you won't have to go through ME3 all over again if it sucks 

Problem is, is that I'll probably some how convince myself that I need to get it... Yeah I've got a problem, I know.

[VivaLaWhatsername]

Nharia1 wrote...

TamiBx wrote...

Nharia1 wrote...

I'm with you on getting the hoodie.... and replaying the other games... If, and only if they fix the endings properly. Also I might, MIGHT pre order DA3... maybe... <_< once it gets closer to release time... For now I'm thinking of Assassin's Creed 3 and Resident Evil 6.

I would hold off on DA3 pre-orders. Wait a couple of days and then buy it...so you won't have to go through ME3 all over again if it sucks 

Problem is, is that I'll probably some how convince myself that I need to get it... Yeah I've got a problem, I know.

Make that two of us that have a problem lol. If they fix the ending I probably will pre-order DA3 if they don't then I am going to force myself NOT to buy anything BioWare from now on.

[the_secondhammer]

Nharia1 wrote...

TamiBx wrote...

Nharia1 wrote...

I'm with you on getting the hoodie.... and replaying the other games... If, and only if they fix the endings properly. Also I might, MIGHT pre order DA3... maybe... <_< once it gets closer to release time... For now I'm thinking of Assassin's Creed 3 and Resident Evil 6.

I would hold off on DA3 pre-orders. Wait a couple of days and then buy it...so you won't have to go through ME3 all over again if it sucks 

Problem is, is that I'll probably some how convince myself that I need to get it... Yeah I've got a problem, I know.

Maybe I did it right with Dragon Age Origins.
I bought the "Games of the year edtion" or something similiar with all dlc 2011.
I played it, thought that it is pretty decent but it didn't flashed me like ME.
Then DA2 seemed to be a great joke compared to DA:O and I didn't missed anything or got attatched to the characters in general (covers).
So, just don't preorder it, you don't need it!
Wait for a "All DLC included" edition for 20 bucks.


Ontopic:
Still can't wait for PAX.
Hold the line.

[ld1449]

Nharia1 wrote...

TamiBx wrote...

Nharia1 wrote...

I'm with you on getting the hoodie.... and replaying the other games... If, and only if they fix the endings properly. Also I might, MIGHT pre order DA3... maybe... <_< once it gets closer to release time... For now I'm thinking of Assassin's Creed 3 and Resident Evil 6.

I would hold off on DA3 pre-orders. Wait a couple of days and then buy it...so you won't have to go through ME3 all over again if it sucks 

Problem is, is that I'll probably some how convince myself that I need to get it... Yeah I've got a problem, I know.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry much on DA3. I sure as hell won't be flying to the store to get it like I did ME3, but the DA team is under a ****load of pressure right now to make the next game properly. They even canceled the Exalted March expansion when this whole thing began just to get their whole team on the full development of the game instead of splitting them up with game and DLC development.

The writing team could literally put the most exquisite literary experience infront of their boss right now and he'll probably look at them and just say "add more"

[Nharia1]

xHezz90 wrote...

Nharia1 wrote...

TamiBx wrote...

Nharia1 wrote...

I'm with you on getting the hoodie.... and replaying the other games... If, and only if they fix the endings properly. Also I might, MIGHT pre order DA3... maybe... <_< once it gets closer to release time... For now I'm thinking of Assassin's Creed 3 and Resident Evil 6.

I would hold off on DA3 pre-orders. Wait a couple of days and then buy it...so you won't have to go through ME3 all over again if it sucks 

Problem is, is that I'll probably some how convince myself that I need to get it... Yeah I've got a problem, I know.

Make that two of us that have a problem lol. If they fix the ending I probably will pre-order DA3 if they don't then I am going to force myself NOT to buy anything BioWare from now on.

It'll be an EA product that has the BioWare label on it... Which is exactly what ME3 is, at the last 10-15 minutes of the game... An EA product, not BioWare, or so I'd like to think... but in the end, BioWare is still semi not under EA, and this is only the second game that EA has had more control over, if I'm right, the other one being DA2.... Which I kind of liked.

[Shazbot69]

Well working in corporate finance tells me that EA will probably be all up in bioware business now. One, this fiasco could potentially trigger a goodwill write off that will ****** the shareholders off pretty bad. Second, revenue revisions at this point in the game means someone is going to get burned. No one screws up like this and can walk away without a career ending reprimand. Not only will me3 revenue stream be revised, DA3 and TOR will be affected. How much so will make the RE forecast session a miserable event at HQ. I know when our field ppl screw up like this everyone in finance dept starts hating the person who caused it. Then eventually that person is either fired or sent to immaterial unit to waste away...now it turns into incremental cash flow perseveration for EA. do they invest say $3mil to satiate the ME issue so they preserve everything else or say screw it lets gamble.