101103 réponses à ce sujet

[chmarr]

Tossska wrote...

=(
Just going back through ME1... Entered, heard the music "Vigil" from the main menu...
Remembered everything. Cried for about 5 minutes. Turned off.
='(

~gives you a big hug and a pat on the back~

[AllegedVixEo]

yjchew wrote...

AllegedVixEo wrote...

...snip...

Argument 2: Large entities who make sizable profit and/or make commercial goods for profit cannot consider their proprietary creative output as art and therefore cannot claim artistic integrity.

...

Apple is an example of a HUGE company, that prides itself on its ability to maintain artistic integrity.  I have never seen a company that is more invested in the creativity of their developers, and in protecting the identity of the product and the integrity of what they put out.  You don't get any bigger than Apple, so again the argument that a "big company" shouldn't be able to claim artistic integrity is rubbish.

1.  I have been following this argument since the beginning, and I have not seen anyone anywhere make the  distinction between LARGE and SMALL entities.  The key is that this so-called "art" is being sold for PROFIT, i.e. commercial interests.  As an example, if I commission a painting of myself, I have every right to reject the artist's rendition if it doesn't match my requirements.  Can you imagine, the artist telling me he won't alter the painting because of "INTEGRITY"?  Once something is being produced for sale to the mass market, the public CERTAINLY can and should respond.  Whether the company does anything about that is another thing, but it would be the smart thing to do especially given the breadth and depth of the organisation around Retake ME movement.

2.  Apple has ALWAYS cared about what its customers think and the fact that they have responded to the recent allegations of mistreatment in their factories shows that they care about perception (Whether or not they REALLY care is immaterial).  Similarly, they DID respond  to the antenna issues in the iPhone 4.  While they first downplayed it (typical PR tactic), you can be sure they were hard at work fixing it in parallel.  They could have just continued downplaying it and saying "you are holding it wrong".  But they know that the core of their brand are their FANATICAL CUSTOMERS and they need to keep these people happy.

3.  In any corporation, there are MANY stakeholders.  Customers are but one.  PArent company EA and BW senior management sure had a say in the ME3 story.  Doubtless the focus on MP or Kinect was due to upper management pressure.  So the story and the essence of the game are being altered even before it hits the shelves.  Why doesn't the project team claim artistic integrity and tell the management folks the "leave us alone?"  Yet they use this argument for their most loyal fans?  Mystifying 

1) Artists have the right to refuse to alter a painting due to artistic integrity, even if it is commisioned.  And you as a consumer, have the right not to pay them.  I don't have to "imagine" it.  Rembrandt did it in 1641 when Civic Guards of Amsterdam were unhappy with their commisioned portrait.  I will continue to pay Bioware for the product they produce, and will continue to respect their artistic integrity.

2) I am glad you brought up the antenna thing, because its a perfect comparison.  
Apple would never change the design of a product simply because fans didn't like it.  They proved that with the entire antenna thing.  Fans thought they could get Apple to change the product design by calling the antenna placement a "mistake", and Apple did not.

If you are happy with the way Apple responds to fans, you should really be thrilled with Bioware.  They are both tight-lipped and vague until their fix is released, and understandably so.  People didn't give Apple the benefit of the doubt either when the antenna issue came out.  Then fans were outraged that they were being told to "purchase a case" to fix the problem.  Bioware is offering a free solution right out the gate.  Eventually, Apple gave away a good number of free cases, but only for the first month or two.  Bioware will be providing the content for free for about a year.   Apple never publicly acknowledged that the antenna issue was a problem, they only offered appeasement to angry consumers.  Bioware is offering appeasement to angry consumers too, so why are we still railroading them on artistic integrity?  Why is it so hard to accept that their vision for the end of the game is good enough and that the extra DLC content might actually be really cool?  People said they would never buy Apple products again either, yet here Apple is a couple of years later, still on top.  I am confident Bioware/EA will recover once the consumerist machine moves on to the next big thing. 

3) There is always going to be some give and take between parent company and subordinate.  While I cannot claim to know what artistic decisions were altered at the hands of EA execs, the things you mentioned are, in fact, enhancements, not complete re-writes.  First, however, we do not know what conversations were between EA and Bioware, and it is possible that EA made suggestions to Bioware that Bioware refused.  Second, there's a big difference between making changes during the editing process, and making changes once the game has been released.  When you start drastically altering the finished product you begin to compromise the integrity of the entire series.  Last, the audience is literally trying to push a version of the story onto the developers that was never intended, and the claim that this movement is in no way a oppressive to the "artistic integrity" of the product is total bologna.  Everyone knows it, whether they choose to admit it or not. 

Bioware has listened, and responded.  They have come up with a solution that protects artistic integrity and provides answers to the core audience, but for some fans compromise is still not good enough.  The outrage is gratuitous.  That is all.

Modifié par AllegedVixEo, 06 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[Mr Chr15topher]

Definition of a fan: A person with a liking and enthusiasm for something, such as a band, a sports team or entertainer. Fans of a particular thing or person constitute its fanbase or fandom. They may show their enthusiasm by being a member of a fan club, holding fan conventions, creating fanzines, writing fan mail, or by promoting the object of their interest and attention.

EA's definition of a fan: $$$

[Nharia1]

Tossska wrote...

=(
Just going back through ME1... Entered, heard the music "Vigil" from the main menu...

*snips pic*

Remembered everything. Cried for about 5 minutes. Turned off.
='(

Don't post embedded pics, post links instead, we want to keep this thread alive for as long as possible...

[Computim]

Back on the line! Anything happen since last night?

[nitefyre410]

Maike91 wrote...

Hey guys, I have a question: Do we know why Vigil has no clue about the Crucible? Or why he/it didn't tell us about it?

 

They have to protect  both  projects made it so neither  knew about  other, incase the  Reapers happened to  find  either one.  They would not get information on the other.   

Javik may known about both but from the  tone of the conversation it sounds at the time he thought it was just hear say and speculaction. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 06 avril 2012 - 04:10 .

[GroverA125]

Maike91 wrote...

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

Maike91 wrote...

Hey guys, I have a question: Do we know why Vigil has no clue about the Crucible? Or why he/it didn't tell us about it?

Well the simplist explanation is that the Ilos team was very isolated from the rest of the prothean empire, and vigil's purpose was looking after the facility there, not knowledge on every thing the protheans were doing, but it is an oversight, he could have know but time was short anyway.

Thanks for the answer. But it's still strange...Javik knows about it, he was born after the Reapers already took the Citadel so he should be kinda isolated, too. Maybe Vigil really doesn't know. Doesn't matter anyway  

It didn't work, remember? The Crucible wouldn't work, and thus wouldn't really be the topic at hand, would it? What would you spend your last few breaths (if you'll pardon the term) on? Telling them that you had a superweapon but it didn't work, or that if they don't get to the citadel immediately and stop sovereign, they will all be killed? I do believe Vigil was a little pre-occupied at the time explaining what was going to happen if sovereign got the citadel active.

[Maike91]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Maike91 wrote...

Hey guys, I have a question: Do we know why Vigil has no clue about the Crucible? Or why he/it didn't tell us about it?

 

They have to protect  both  projects made it so neither  knew about  other, incase the  Reapers happened to  find  either one.  They would not get information on the other. 

It's strange though, the Reapers had no idea that so many species tried to build a weapon for...a loooong time? But I see your point.

[Feraiin]

techgnotic.deviantart.com/art/The-Future-of-Storytelling-Has-Arrived-293860261

The discussion hits DeviantArt. 
 
If you feel like a good read and want to see both sides of the argument presented without insulting the other side, this is for you. Great commentaries from artists and people from the industry. This goes beyond ME, but is highly relevant.

[Lestatman]

See if I hear the term Artistic Integrity one more time I gonna scream. Tali's face (stock photo) = Artisitic Integrity. Adding the star child in the last moments of story is not artistic it is simply bad writing. Shepards acceptance of what the star child says is not artistic it's again bad writing. Pick a colour from 3 is not artistic it's oh you know where I'm going with this.

[Maike91]

GroverA125 wrote...

Maike91 wrote...

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

Maike91 wrote...

Hey guys, I have a question: Do we know why Vigil has no clue about the Crucible? Or why he/it didn't tell us about it?

Well the simplist explanation is that the Ilos team was very isolated from the rest of the prothean empire, and vigil's purpose was looking after the facility there, not knowledge on every thing the protheans were doing, but it is an oversight, he could have know but time was short anyway.

Thanks for the answer. But it's still strange...Javik knows about it, he was born after the Reapers already took the Citadel so he should be kinda isolated, too. Maybe Vigil really doesn't know. Doesn't matter anyway  

It didn't work, remember? The Crucible wouldn't work, and thus wouldn't really be the topic at hand, would it? What would you spend your last few breaths (if you'll pardon the term) on? Telling them that you had a superweapon but it didn't work, or that if they don't get to the citadel immediately and stop sovereign, they will all be killed? I do believe Vigil was a little pre-occupied at the time explaining what was going to happen if sovereign got the citadel active.

Yeah that makes sense. Still, for me the Crucible plot feels just slapped on to the ME universe

[The_Canadian_Dragon]

This might be good for a laugh. Be prepared for cartoon violence though.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Reorte]

Lestatman wrote...

See if I hear the term Artistic Integrity one more time I gonna scream. Tali's face (stock photo) = Artisitic Integrity. Adding the star child in the last moments of story is not artistic it is simply bad writing. Shepards acceptance of what the star child says is not artistic it's again bad writing. Pick a colour from 3 is not artistic it's oh you know where I'm going with this.

But that was their artistic vision. Good or bad it's their vision and it would be wrong to challenge that.

The logic of that escapes me too.

[silencemayday]

toffeetrooper wrote...
*snip*

welcome back coffee or beer

lets go with the coffee for now how you've been holding up? 

[Jesta79-X]

There is an incoming MP DLC free


Seems like they want the pressure off them by offering free stuff

[Talon_Wu]

So, I return here after a few days to find that BioWare has addressed resolving the endings with an "extended cut". Free DLC, so we can't vote with our wallets. The misused phrase"artistic vision." "This summer." And more damning "...this arc of the Mass Effect franchise."

Really, BioWare? Like I care about the future Mass Effect games you'll toss at me, after you demolished the universe in the ones I love? No. Just no. Because you bullheadedly refuse to see that you screwed up, and refuse to rectify your mistakes.

I call varrencrap.

[sumillebonus]

Last time, on "Days of our Developers"

http://social.biowar...6/2940#11087851

Today's brief interlude in "Days of our Developers" - heartbroken over the loss of his Loyal Fan, downtrodden developer Bioware skulks over to his parent company EA for consolation:

...

"Bioware! Buddy! Good to see you!"

"Thanks EA."

"Why so down, Bioware? You look like a fan who just finished Mass Effect 3! Ha ha ha!" <goes to give Bioware a high-five>

<ignores the high-five> "Yeah, that's funny EA."

"C'mon, show me the love!" <Bioware remains pensive> "Seriously though, you look awful... is everything okay?"

"No, not really. My Loyal Fan broke up with today."

"Really?! I thought you two two were made for each other! Heck, I even factored you two into my long term growth strategies. What happened?"

"..the ending of Mass Effect 3, I guess it didn't..."

"Endings! With an 'S'! Plural - there were 16 of them."

"Yeah, 16 endings. Got it, I keep forgetting. Loyal Fan... well, the Extended Cut announcement didn't go over as well as I thought it would. Maybe it was too little, too late."

"Nonsense! Loyal Fan just needs some time to adjust to the New Bioware. The Better Bioware. The Mega-Conglomerate-Cash-Infused Bioware! In a few months, when the Extended Cut is released, Loyal Fan will be right back at their console smashing buttons on their controller. Everything will be back to the way it was - you'll see."

"You weren't there, EA. This is more serious. This might be... the end. "

"You mean 'the ends'?" <goes to give Bioware another high-five>

"EA! This isn't a joke to me. Loyal Fan told me they were going to patronize other developers. They're going to buy other games! Experience another game's narrative! Control another hero! I don't know if I can handle that."

"You just better hope it's not CD Projekt - I hear once they get a hold of Loyal Fans, it's hard to pry them loose. The amount of fanservice they give, the level of personal attention.... and have you heard about the size of their development budget?"

"EA, you're REALLY not helping me here."

"Bioware. Buddy. Things will all work out. I promise you."

"Yeah, whatever, EA."

"Didn't I promise you an incredible Q1 2012 sales bump? Two million downloads of Origin? C'mon Bioware, trust me on this."

"Okay, EA. I trust you for now."

"C'mon Bioware, we have a big day today! Time to get ready for PAX East!"

"You think CD Projekt is going to be there?"

"You better hope not, Bioware. You better hope not."

Next time, on "Days of our Developers" - PAX East is here! Will Loyal Fans flock to CD Projekt's immense development budget? Will Bioware be able to maintain their composure? Watch and find out!
"Days of our Developers" is brought to you by Space Magic:wizard:
Surgeon General's Warning: Exposure to Space Magic:wizard: has been known to cause depression, anger, and resentment. If you enjoy gaming and cohesive narrative structure, you are urged to avoid Space Magic:wizard:

[Kyria Nyriese]

Hey all, after the announcement yesterday I decided to take a day off the line and do stuff other than worry about Mass Effect 3. Didn't do much good, however, I did get some errands ran and I got my website up and running a bit more than it was before.

On the announcement. I don't know. I'll wait patiently, continue holding the line, not buy anything Bioware/EA until I see it and determine for myself whether or not they actually are doing anything about the situation or if they are just looking at us like we're to dumb to understand. As it stands, I am disappointed in what I have read. However, as I said, I'll wait and see what happens this summer.

Now back to HOLDING THE LINE!

[Reorte]

The_Canadian_Dragon wrote...

This might be good for a laugh. Be prepared for cartoon violence though.

www.youtube.com/watch

A bit over the top just for being picked on. Except for the one who pulled a gun on Tali, Incinerate was definitely the right way to go there!

[Maike91]

Jesta79-X wrote...

There is an incoming MP DLC free 


Seems like they want the pressure off them by offering free stuff

Oh god...

Modifié par Maike91, 06 avril 2012 - 04:29 .

[Lestatman]

@ Reorte I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

I personally and repeat personally think it's just an opt out clause for them. Stephen King's the Dark Tower series was a series of books I loved and in the last and seventh book at the end SK warned the readers that they might not like what they're about to read and maybe they should stop reading now. But I carried on and yes I hated the final ending but I didn't write to SK and ask him to change it because it's a book and I have as a reader no input in the characters or story as I'm only a passenger whereas ME was different.

[Major Swift]

Bioware, you can't fix stupid lol

[Reorte]

Lestatman wrote...

@ Reorte I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

I personally and repeat personally think it's just an opt out clause for them. Stephen King's the Dark Tower series was a series of books I loved and in the last and seventh book at the end SK warned the readers that they might not like what they're about to read and maybe they should stop reading now. But I carried on and yes I hated the final ending but I didn't write to SK and ask him to change it because it's a book and I have as a reader no input in the characters or story as I'm only a passenger whereas ME was different.

I was being sarcastic (hence the escaping logic statement). I think we'll actually have to agree to agree because we do agree.

[Ihatebadgames]

Notice all the DLC they are offering is MP?

[Lestatman]

@ Reorte rofl ok you got me 1 - 0 to u.

Free MP DLC. Great since I'm not a fan of MP. This week is getting better and better lol.