101103 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

KateKane wrote...

Hexxys wrote...

KateKane wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

This just isn't what the fans want and so far only the minority like it.

The game wasn't made for the fans.

Correct, but there's only so far you can go to antagonize your customers before sales drop off.  Money, my friend, is what this game is made for.  And fans are money.

But it's mostly being marketed towards a completely new audience.

They have the built-in fanbase and the new crowd they've catering to. It's actually very clever, but the game appears to have suffered for it.

That and the obvious cut corners, of course.

They tried to market DA2 to a new audience without caring about alienating the fanbase. Once the starting impetus ended all can see how well that went.

[AllThatJazz]

Reorte wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

See, for me that wouldn't be bittersweet in a war situation at all. That would pretty much count as the sunshine and rainbows ending if the people I loved were definitely all alive and I could be with them. Not having stuff, being homeless or hungry for a bit or whatever really wouldn't affect that. For me, a bittersweet ending is one where I'm alive (but my family don't know that), and my family are alive (but I don't know it) or something along those lines.

Eh, maybe that's partly why Bio couldn't come up with a 'bittersweet' ending that appealed to all people - definitions of the term are subjective I guess ...

But in your example there's still the hope of getting back together. The impression I'm getting is that that hope is not there. We're being offered "You've won but there's nothing left for you."

Except that in the 'good' destroy ending, where Shep seems to live,  there is that hope I think. Faint maybe, but there. I've heard that it's possible for your LI to be on Earth as long as they're squadmates for the last bit  - although I admit the info I'm getting is a bit confused, and also for Garrus and Tali to be war assets on Earth which is good if they're your LI. The fact that they apparently still appear on the Normandy regardless is, to me, clearly a bug, and therefore something I can fairly easily disregard (though definitely want fixed). That being the case, both Shep & LI are on Earth and alive, therefore there is an implication of a possible happy ending ...

[Killjoy Cutter]

eye basher wrote...

i actually praise Bioware they had the guts to do something more than just fan service.

Gleefully crapping on the customer expectations you've spent two games and almost a decade building up is not "having guts" or "avoiding fanservice".

[rtv053]

Nerevar-as wrote...

rtv053 wrote...

Ghost Rider LSOV wrote...

rtv053 wrote...
Because, ultimately, if Shepard were able to survive and become reunited with his crew, then truly they would have made no sacrifice at all.

Shepard can and does lose quite a few friends in the game, so I don't think this counts as "no sacrifice".

But their deaths aren't Shepard's sacrifice - they are the personal sacrifice of the people who gave up their lives for him, for their friends, for the war effort, for their own species and most importantly (from a paragon perspective) for the galactic community. Shepard's sacrifice needs to be something else.

People also seem to forget that, however heartbreaking it might be that Shepard may never see his old friends again, if he survives, he has the chance to go on and rebuild, to make new friends, to have a new life and find new loves. And hopefully, never have to pull a trigger ever again.

Why? Why has the definition of a hero changed so much that not only have the challenges be great, but that if his/her life doesn´t suck at the end of the fight people think their acomplishments are worth less than if the hero actually gets something out of it? Victory tasting like defeat doesn´t make a better story, especially not when it is this contrived.

Why does his life 'suck'? It has simply changed, just as the rest of the galaxy has changed. Those changes might be unsettling, or upsetting, but that doesn't mean his life is fundamentally ruined. Shepard can live on, and find a new life.

[albertalad]

rtv053 wrote...

I've been eagerly following the conversations on this board ever since I heard about the leaks. I understand people's frustrations, but at the same time, I can't agree with them. I hope that I'll be able to expand upon the following in more exacting detail in some kind of essay post eventually, but here's my two pence.

1) One issue that people seem to have is that the ME universe is fundamentally altered by the destruction of the mass relays, and the subsequent fracturing of the galactic community. But this is what great sci-fi does; it shows change, often on a galactic or universal scale.

And in many ways, this was the only logical endpoint of the series. Manuel at the dig site in ME1 prophesised the end of humanity/the coming of a dark age, and in all the endings, that is more or less what we get. The Reapers created the mass relays to control the way species evolve - so we had to destroy them and find our own path. Legion says pretty much the same thing about the Geth, wanting to find their own way outside of the destiny that might be intended by whoever came before, be it the Quarians or the Reapers.

2) People seem most aggravated by the fact that it is not possible to rescue the Normandy crew from their fate, and furthermore, that if Shepard lives, he is forever seperated from those that he has come to care about most. But why is this wrong?

What is this sense of entitlement that we fans have? Why do we feel that Shepard should be the ONLY person in the entire galaxy who does not lose something in this war? Because, ultimately, if Shepard were able to survive and become reunited with his crew, then truly they would have made no sacrifice at all. With the destruction of the mass relays, so many people all across the galaxy have been, for the foreseeable future, irrevocably seperated in space and time from loved ones, friends, family, homes, jobs, home worlds... if Shepard and the crew of the Normandy did not share in this sacrifice, then all their efforts would be cheapened.

Why is it expected that Shepard should be perfectly happy? What is truly important is that, however battered and broken it may be, the galactic community, and humanity in particular, have survived, and have the opportunity to prosper.

I'll continue to reserve my judgment until I've played and finished the game, but from all I've read, this sounds like a near-perfect ending to a near-perfect gaming series, and one that - however divisive it may eventually become - has touched all of our lives.

I didn't play the galactic community - that is an abstract point having little connection to the Sheppard of ME1 and 2. In fact that same glactic community called my Sheppard a traitor, his friends turned their backs on him, the Alliance jailed him and was on the verge of trying him -

Sheppard made all the hard decisions while the glactic community sat back and scorned him - further removing Sheppard from galactic community wisdom, or lack thereof - Sheppard's PERSONAL struggle is a very personal struggle with very personal team-mates and love interests.

The glactic community means nothing to me what so ever. Sheppard, his love interests, his team-mates are MY struggle. They are my interests - killing Reapers is just part of that journey! And what happens to Shppard and his teams, loved ones ARE my primary concerns. The rest of the galaxy now has THIER chance to step into the breech and do their part - and its about time some of those paid the price for a change.

[Canned Bullets]

If Bioware apoligize it would at least show that they somewhat care about the fans and not about money. I wish they didn't focus on allowing noobs to get into the game

[Morroian]

Rdubs wrote...

Revised

ME3: Future business school case study in what happens when trying to get more customers becomes more important than fulfilling the expectations you've set with current customers.

I don't see how an almost down in flames ending like it appears to be is trying to get more customers.

Such an ending shows a huge amount of chutzpah on Bioware's behalf but I can see why people are pissed about what happens to these characters that they've grown to like a lot. Plus it makes it difficult to do future games in the universe. I guess there's still space travel via the ships that didn't need the mass relays but its clearly going to be much more difficult. 

[Hexxys]

Sargerus wrote...

Hexxys wrote...

Sargerus wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

This just isn't what the fans want and so far only the minority like it.

Provide some reliable data for your statement then.

What's your definition of reliable?  The ratings and responses on youtube have been overwhelmingly negative on videos showing the ending events.  There isn't an official poll though, if that's what you're asking.

Ah, the world where youtube dislikes actually mean something. 

It would be just as naive to say they have *no* meaning as it would be to say that they encapsulate the general consensus.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Ahms wrote...

Has anybody considered the possibility that these endings might have been purposefully "leaked" to see core fan base reactions and gather data? It certainly makes for interesting psychological research, if not data for deciding whether or not to work future, "alternate endings," DLC.

I have, but dismissed the idea. As a comicbook reader I´m used to how bad a writer´s judgement can be about what fans will accept, even if they care for it.

Take the Normandy situation (as it seems what it´s annoying us most), it looks like it´ll be near Charon when the battle is over Earth, that the squad who were with Shepard will be back onboard... do you really think the reason will be convincing and not a really cheap source of drama?

And the snowy landscape does look like the same planet the Normandy crashed on. If it is, I´m going to count how many women there are on board the Normandy. Inbreeding might not be the most horrible part of that.

Yeah, it does remind me of how comic book writers act -- "Who cares if this character has always talked about and shown great respect for all people, I think he should have been a racist, sexist, biggotted pig, so that's how I'm going to write him!" 

And yeah, trying to create a viable colony out of a couple dozen people, especially when there are only a few women, leads in a creepy direction.

[_Martyr_]

rtv053 wrote...
.

We don't play videogames for the graphics, we play them for, as childish as may be, satisfaction.

Shepard sacrificed a lot in this war (Virmire, Collectors, won't tell here but 2-3 people are probably going to die)
What Liara said was true: You can't get back anything you lose, but sometimes you get lucky.

We deserve that luck by pulling this off.
We save the galaxy from an overwhelming threat, we deserve the right (assuming that you did EVERYTHING right) to reunite with the gang, at least.

The galaxy is crippled due to the war and the destruction of mass relays, but getting the Normandy stranded without any particular reason is just adding insult to injury.

[Efesell]

Canned Bullets wrote...

If Bioware apoligize it would at least show that they somewhat care about the fans and not about money. I wish they didn't focus on allowing noobs to get into the game

All it shows is that they'd cater to the loudest and most annoying fans.

[albertalad]

Efesell wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

If Bioware apoligize it would at least show that they somewhat care about the fans and not about money. I wish they didn't focus on allowing noobs to get into the game

All it shows is that they'd cater to the loudest and most annoying fans.

Then it was YOU ANNOYING fans who won.

[blooregard]

Brahlis wrote...

blooregard wrote...

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

blooregard wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

blooregard wrote...

halo 3: halo array destroyed MC on a ship and is deemed MIA

ME3: mass relay network destroyed shep MIA/KIA normandy deemed MIA

both of the ships are frigates

coincidence? I think not!

At least with Halo the Galaxy wasn't thrown into a Dark Age. The Halo ending would have been better than the leaked ME3 ending if they didn't throw in that stupid "Master Chief lands on an unknown planet" as an excuse to make Halo 4.

Now see theres another issue. Where does it say ME was thrown into a dark age? Grant it they're pretty boned by the looks of it but look at the galaxy as a whole this way


destroy: reapers destroyed a bunch of reaper tech laying around as well as synthetics rebuilding possible

merge: robots and meatbags are now as one reapers are peacful and with their infinite wisdom/tech can rebuild the relay network

control: you are reapers assist galaxy in rebuilding relay network


look at WWII end of war everything sucked 50 years later 75% of the suck is gone (obviously it would take longer to rebuild a galaxy spanning civilization then a few blown to smitheroons cities but the point still stands)

In all endings as of what we know right now, the Relay network is destroyed, that is why people are saying the galaxy is thrown back into the dark ages.

I personally wouldn't go that far with it, but I do say it puts Galactic Civilization back hundreds if not thousands of years.

As for the Reapers.  They are the physical manifestation of a Technological Singularity, which exist to prevent a Technological Singularity by wiping out Organics who may or may not be on the cusp of a Technological Singularity 'ascending' them to become a Reaper which is the physical manifestaiton of a Technological Singularity.  It's called Cicurlar Logic and it goes no where.

I have no argument that it sets galactic civilization back quite a bit but they still have alot of resources reapers, relay remnents, most of the tech they have now its not the total end for civilization just a set back.
As for the normandy getting stranded just remember what happened to the prothean scientists when they reprogrammed the keepers their sacrafice was the only reason we could get this far in the first place. Its only reasonable that the normandy and crew who have been at the heart of it from eden prime have to make an equal sacrafice in order to stop the reapers once and for all.

happy endings aren't always sunshine and kittens but the knowledge that your choices and sacrafices are the only thing that allow future generations to live without fear

Nobody is asking for sunshine and kittens, and quite frankly it's ridiculous to keep reading this crap being spewed from people's mouths.

People, including myself, are pissed at the choices being ripped from our hands. By your all's logic, why was there any way to save 'everyone' from the Collector Base assault? After all, sacrifice is required to do anything good, even in a video game, correct? But no, the option was there to have a good ening (for the player) and save all the characters they've grown attatched to.

Nobody is asking for a similar ending for ME3 to be the "canon" ending. People just want the option. As it stands all the endings (when it comes to your crew) are essentially ALL the same. What kind of decision making is that for the player? For a lot of people, the crew is the best part about the games. The interaction with your squad and the dialogue between them and Shepard and the friendship and bonds that develop in the game.

When you're forced to have  a singular downer ending with that aspect of the game, it's going to ****** people off and no amount of rationalization from people like you can change their mind, mine included. If this many people are pissed, SOMETHING IS WRONG.

The option should have been there to get a more feel good ending, plain and simple.

From what I can tell from reading the comments here people would have complained about a good ending too claiming it to be too unrealistic. Don't get me wrong I'm one of the ones hoping for a happily ever after ending too but I think most of the people on here are jumping hte gun and going full on ragegasm about an ending that while sad and "sadistic" is a fine ending for the seires if a bit too cleche
 


(WARNING: THINGS SAID HERE WILL PROBABLY SOUND IDIOTIC AND FLAME WORTHY SO IF READ DO NOT RESPOND WITH A FLAME WAR) 

if you're complaining about the game's lack of choice when you want to get down to the very last detail the entire series hasn't really been full of choices

ME1: you had the man power to save both kaiden and ashley but you could only save one for teh dramaz
you couldn't side with Saren and have a worst possible ending where the reapers win
ME2: you could have the sunshine and kittens ending and the you dun goofed ending (IMO most open one in the series) 
ME3: see DX:HR for more details (IMO I also think this ending fits ME better then it did DX:HR)

[Arch1eviathan]

Go away Gem! D:<

[KateKane]

Nerevar-as wrote...

They tried to market DA2 to a new audience without caring about alienating the fanbase. Once the starting impetus ended all can see how well that went.

True, but I doubt ME3 will have the glaringly obvious faults of DA2.

Where Da2 had just two caves you went in numerous times, ME3 has no female models of most races.
That sort of thing.
Stuff they should have done to add to the overall detail and quality of the game, but didn't because they didn't need to.

They're actually referring to this as the best place to get into the series. How shameless can you be?

[rtv053]

Brahlis wrote...

rtv053 wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

This just isn't what the fans want and so far only the minority like it.

Good writers don't give people what they want. They give people what they need. In a totally different genre, I just finished reading The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I didn't want Mikael to hurt Lisbeth, but the story was all the better for it.

A book is totally different from an 'epic' game that's touted as giving the player a heavy hand in influencing the story. There's zero rationalization for having all the endings be so downer with Shep and the crew.

We HAVE influenced the story. A story is a journey, and we have influenced that every step of the way. We have made our own Shepards, and carved out our own story inside an elaborate and fascinating universe.

What people don't seem to realise however is that Bioware have very cleverly constructed an illusion of choice throughout the series, where we have made seemingly huge decisions, but where the ultimate end in any given situation is nearly the same.

Whether or not you killed the Rachni Queen, you still killed Benezia and found out the coordinates of the mass relay. Whether you saved the Council or let them die, you still defeated Sovereign. Whether you pulled your whole team through the suicide mission, or let nearly everybody die, you still ended the Collector threat. In every scenario, in every piece of narrative, we have always altered the path of our story, but never the destination. Why should we have expected any different for the narrative as a whole?

As for the endings being a downer, that truly comes down to a matter of interpretation.

[Canned Bullets]

I still think Bioware shouldn't have focused on grtting noobs into the game as a desperate attempt to increase sales.

[DifferentD17]

What irks me alot is that if they were planning this for years, then they've been lying for years.

[fresh101]

Efesell wrote...

Demanding apologies is nonsense, and I hate when developers actually do cave to that.

Fortunately it doesn't seem common.

I am not demanding anything, I only say for reasons I already gave and explaind it would be a polite thing to do.

[blueruin]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Ahms wrote...

Has anybody considered the possibility that these endings might have been purposefully "leaked" to see core fan base reactions and gather data? It certainly makes for interesting psychological research, if not data for deciding whether or not to work future, "alternate endings," DLC.

I have, but dismissed the idea. As a comicbook reader I´m used to how bad a writer´s judgement can be about what fans will accept, even if they care for it.

Take the Normandy situation (as it seems what it´s annoying us most), it looks like it´ll be near Charon when the battle is over Earth, that the squad who were with Shepard will be back onboard... do you really think the reason will be convincing and not a really cheap source of drama?

And the snowy landscape does look like the same planet the Normandy crashed on. If it is, I´m going to count how many women there are on board the Normandy. Inbreeding might not be the most horrible part of that.

Yeah, it does remind me of how comic book writers act -- "Who cares if this character has always talked about and shown great respect for all people, I think he should have been a racist, sexist, biggotted pig, so that's how I'm going to write him!" 

And yeah, trying to create a viable colony out of a couple dozen people, especially when there are only a few women, leads in a creepy direction.

I don't know why people keep saying the Normandy crew is that small.  It's true that you may not actually see the character models for 100+ people in the game, but Joker said that most of the SR1 crew survived.  You collected 20 dogtags when revisiting the SR1 crash.  

And I thought the SR2 was considerably bigger than the SR1.

[The Bridgeburner]

rtv053 wrote...

I don't like this term 'ripping off'. There are very few original ideas these days, least of all in science fiction. There are shapes, structures, tropes, memes, that keep reappearing over and over again in all of SF-dom. What makes each universe/IP unique is how those shapes, structures etc. are embellished and defined with details. Its not what you paint - its how you paint it. And ME is one of the most fascinating universes I can think of.

As for Deus Ex (and I mean the series), it 'ripped off' its ideas for the ending from dozens of other works. It was still a fascinating narrative though.

Not to get in to semantics and all that, but in this case, yes 'ripping off' seems correct. There are only a handful of real sf rpgs (especially western ones), and to 'liberally borrow' from the endings of Deus Ex is a really poor decision. I know... nothing new under the sun, but Bioware could have at least gathered inspiration from literary sf instead of something already in gaming narrative.

And I love the ME universe... but these endings, or at least the choices, are less than stellar. MacGuffin, Space Magic and all that.

[Eagle301]

How this will go down.

• End Mass Effect 3 by screwing fans and series.
• Fans get upset, add on DLC  for $10 that shows Shep with his LI on earth at the end (approx. 20 seconds) Did someone say money?

After Mass Effect 3's ending...

• This leaves room for prequels! Time for Mass Effect: The Old Galaxy MMO in 2014!
• The People vs Bioware: Mass Effect 3 in 2015

I'm calling it right now.

[Efesell]

albertalad wrote...

Efesell wrote...

Canned Bullets wrote...

If Bioware apoligize it would at least show that they somewhat care about the fans and not about money. I wish they didn't focus on allowing noobs to get into the game

All it shows is that they'd cater to the loudest and most annoying fans.

Then it was YOU ANNOYING fans who won.

They present something, we either like it, despise, or whatever it.  We don't demand that they change everything to suit our whims.

There's no winning side.

[Lana Del Rey]

fresh101 wrote...

I am not attackinig anybody here, nut I will pu some of the stuff, of what have been promised to be delivered, and what we have get:

1) we have been promised multiple DIFERENT endings, where our choices MATTERED and we got this:


2) we have been promised that ROLE-PLAYING MODE, would be just that, and we get, enormous amount of auto dialog in that mode, where Shepard just would not shut up,and here is an example, just watch careffuly:

p.s. also in this video is shown the lack of conversation options, there were mostly 3 options without investigate, and neutral option

3) we were promised better graphic and cinematic, or at least should expect in 2012 we wouldn't have to watch  minecraft people in AAA title:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xverS30ipL0

4 ) we have been promised a triling conclusion of trilogy, and we get Deus Ex PUSH THE BUTTON THAT DOES EVERYTHING ENDING with little differations, because in all endings mass relays get destroyed and your crew strangels in LOST series

5) and finally one of the things that wasn't promised, but we as a fans have expected  it:
a plot of this final story to be at least as good as in MASS EFFECT, and we get a plot that doesn't make sense, and is not even worthy of mentioning, it's just plane simple bad writing and lack of anykind of an idea


So conclusion:

They ruin the SAGA:o

I have never belive this game was meant to be a trilogy, no matter how many times they said it did, to support this claim, just look the lack of imagination in writing, and holes in lore of this narrative;

Also it's clear now that BioWare pushing this to be "GREAT START TO JUMP IN MASS EFFECT SERIES" has cost, and strip this game of hers core, insted of deepening the story they have dumb it down so that n00bs could play this, and finally:

I undestand that they can't, and will not comment this game until it is officially relised, but after 6-th march, Bioware should make an official apology to the fans and communty, and somehow punished those who are responsible for this disaster

It's at least what they can do:mellow:

This auto-dialogue thing, are you sure he didn't pick that ''action'' option, or ''all choices are made for you''? Because this was streamed live, and seeing how he plays, can't say this guy cares that much about choices, or anything.