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[Hexxys]

rtv053 wrote...
We HAVE influenced the story. A story is a journey, and we have influenced that every step of the way. We have made our own Shepards, and carved out our own story inside an elaborate and fascinating universe.

What people don't seem to realise however is that Bioware have very cleverly constructed an illusion of choice throughout the series, where we have made seemingly huge decisions, but where the ultimate end in any given situation is nearly the same.

Whether or not you killed the Rachni Queen, you still killed Benezia and found out the coordinates of the mass relay. Whether you saved the Council or let them die, you still defeated Sovereign. Whether you pulled your whole team through the suicide mission, or let nearly everybody die, you still ended the Collector threat. In every scenario, in every piece of narrative, we have always altered the path of our story, but never the destination. Why should we have expected any different for the narrative as a whole?

As for the endings being a downer, that truly comes down to a matter of interpretation.

If nothing we do affects the ending of the story, what does it matter how we got there?  The "endings" of the previous games weren't the end of the story.  They were the end of those titles.  ME3's ending destroys the ME universe as we know it.  And there's nothing we can do to mitigate it or avoid it completely.  So, what's the point?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Kanmuru wrote...

3.The reapers arent trying to save us, they want to save the other lifeforms from the singularity. They dont care about us, they care about non inteligent animals and plants. To them inteligent life is a plague that creates AI.

Not even that. Their MO usually includes orbital bombing of planets they aren´t harvesting. If they care about life, it´s as an abstract thing.

Indeed, a review of the planets in ME1 and ME2 will find a host of them that were bombarded to the point of erradicating all life. 

The Reapers never gave a rat's arse about life. 

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

noxsachi wrote...
Spoilers for TTGL follow;

(The ending )
In that series the protagonists end up fighting in a situation similar to Shepard's in that there is a force wanting to destroy them for the good of the universe. Sacrifices are made, with many of Simons friends dying before they eventually win. A big theme of that show is that they will find a better way, and Simon says as much as he defeats the bad guy, with him being like "If you kill me, protect the universe." Which well the parallels between that and the reapers are obvious. In the aftermath Simon's girlfriend dies, but they get a good send off together, and while things are bittersweet for Simon he has saved the universe. Shepard doesn't even get that, which is really a big issue.

Heh, with all this, I had forgotten the parallel of the technical singularity with the reapers and the Spiral Energy with the Anti-Spirals.

TTGL is more over the top than ME in everything but Simon does marry Nia and all, before she disappears and he knew it would happen.

But without playing ourselves, we can't yet make the exact comparison of what Shepard told his/her LI and how prepared they were for the sendoff.

And you know what? I wonder if Shepard would say anywhere "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM ?!"

[Killjoy Cutter]

Kanmuru wrote...

He is a VI and he takes the shape of the boy that died in the demo...

The guardian is AI like EDI the keepers are his hands so when the Proteans reprogramed the keepers, they also stopped the Guardian

Which is it, AI or VI?

[BaronIveagh]

DifferentD17 wrote...

Who said I said they said that there would be happy ending? Geez jumping on me for no reason really in defense of this bad ending are you? They said they've been planning the ending for a long time.

Yes, they planned it ever since someone on the writing team watched Divergence Eve and said 'Hey, the US rights owner is out of buisness!  We can steal this without being sued for plagerism!'

[_Martyr_]

11726 replies, 72427 views. Steps will be taken for sure.

Goodnight.

[DifferentD17]

Sargerus wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

Sargerus wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

What irks me alot is that if they were planning this for years, then they've been lying for years.

Show me ONE quote from a BW dev saying that Shepard would have a happy rainbow ending in the series conclusion.

Who said I said they said that there would be happy ending? Geez jumping on me for no reason really in defense of this bad ending are you? They said they've been planning the ending for a long time.

So, why you are saying they are lying? Your logic is flawed.

lol your logic is flawed /argument.

There is only one ending, and they've been flaunting choice around for years.

[noxsachi]

Ghost Rider LSOV wrote...

noxsachi wrote...
Spoilers for TTGL follow;

(The ending )
In that series the protagonists end up fighting in a situation similar to Shepard's in that there is a force wanting to destroy them for the good of the universe. Sacrifices are made, with many of Simons friends dying before they eventually win. A big theme of that show is that they will find a better way, and Simon says as much as he defeats the bad guy, with him being like "If you kill me, protect the universe." Which well the parallels between that and the reapers are obvious. In the aftermath Simon's girlfriend dies, but they get a good send off together, and while things are bittersweet for Simon he has saved the universe. Shepard doesn't even get that, which is really a big issue.

Heh, with all this, I had forgotten the parallel of the technical singularity with the reapers and the Spiral Energy with the Anti-Spirals.

TTGL is more over the top than ME in everything but Simon does marry Nia and all, before she disappears and he knew it would happen.

But without playing ourselves, we can't yet make the exact comparison of what Shepard told his/her LI and how prepared they were for the sendoff.

And you know what? I wonder if Shepard would say anywhere "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM ?!"

Yeah honestly very similar stories, excepting the levels of cheese and over the topness. Just well, the TTGL ending makes me cry, it is incredibly satisfying without being a "perfect" end. I will reserve judgment until I see it in the end, but it seems to be going grimdark to be grimdark.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Holy flaming nuns..

It's actually a paradox.

Reapers exist to preserve organic life, they do so by eliminating major threats.

Organic life, once allowed to achieve sentience, is self-destructive by nature. It wages war for the sake of expansion, greed, need or simply because one group of people are different from another.

War leads to destruction, not only of life itself, but of the world around us.

The world, or in this case, the universe is the only thing sustaining life. Ultimately if the universe is gone, there is nothing to sustain life. So technically speaking all threats to the universe but be destroyed in order to sustain the universe to sustain organic life..

Ultimately, anything that is capable of sentient thought, needs to be eliminated before it's allowed to achieve sentience. This includes organic life, as once organic life achieves sentience it becomes a threat to organic life.

Why have the Reapers not simply imploded due to this fact?

[rtv053]

Hexxys wrote...

rtv053 wrote...
We HAVE influenced the story. A story is a journey, and we have influenced that every step of the way. We have made our own Shepards, and carved out our own story inside an elaborate and fascinating universe.

What people don't seem to realise however is that Bioware have very cleverly constructed an illusion of choice throughout the series, where we have made seemingly huge decisions, but where the ultimate end in any given situation is nearly the same.

Whether or not you killed the Rachni Queen, you still killed Benezia and found out the coordinates of the mass relay. Whether you saved the Council or let them die, you still defeated Sovereign. Whether you pulled your whole team through the suicide mission, or let nearly everybody die, you still ended the Collector threat. In every scenario, in every piece of narrative, we have always altered the path of our story, but never the destination. Why should we have expected any different for the narrative as a whole?

As for the endings being a downer, that truly comes down to a matter of interpretation.

If nothing we do affects the ending of the story, what does it matter how we got there?  The "endings" of the previous games weren't the end of the story.  They were the end of those titles.  ME3's ending destroys the ME universe as we know it.  And there's nothing we can do to mitigate it or avoid it completely.  So, what's the point?

Well, this is where it comes down to a matter of interpretation and personal opinion. This is in no way an attempt to suggest that you are wrong Hexxys - far from it, I understand and I felt the same way when I first heard about the endings - but I believe that truly good science fiction DOES destroy what we know and love, at least in some way. Science fiction is a media where we contemplate our place in the universe, and think about where science and human (or alien) nature will take us. Ultimately, these meditations will culminate in some kind of paradigm shift, or apocalypse.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Aesieru wrote...

I don't know why I even keep trying to explain this, but it wasn't OUT OF THE BLUE, this had been built up throughout the series if you just paid attention.

Also, you can't traverse the galaxy in 27 years.

It'll take thousands to travel.

If my math is right, at the non-Relay FTL rates noted, about 12 light years per day, it would take under 24 years of continuous travel to cover the diameter of the galactic disk. 

And yes, in fact, the "Reapers are here to save you from the singularity, derp" thing is completely out of the blue. 

The setup was clearly for a problem with "dark energy".  The clues were there, but I was really hoping that Bioware wasn't going to resort to a tired and trite cliche trying to turn the arrogant self-absorbed monsters into "misunderstood spacegods doing terrible things for a higher reason".

[Reorte]

Going back to the "Galaxy is split apart thanks to no mass relays" point it's not really all that bad. The wiki gives 12 light years a day, which works out at 22 years to cross the galaxy (although it'll be longer due to having to stop to discharge and refuel). If someone figures out how to build new mass relays the galaxy should be back in communication in a fairly short time.

As for the Normandy's crew, I'm assuming that they were stranded somewhere between Sol and Arcturus, which is only 3 days' travel away at 12 ly per day. They should be found (it seems unlikely that they would even be on an uncharted world).

[N7Sarge]

I'd really forget about the general bad writing in ME3, the plotholes and the reapers' motivation if there was at least one decent ending - doesn't need to be an absolute happy ending but something that makes you think you won at least something.
Let the Normandy crash on earth with its survivors and let Shepard be reunited with his crew. I think this would be accepted and make a much better ending than the other ones.

Modifié par N7Sarge, 04 mars 2012 - 10:38 .

[blueruin]

DifferentD17 wrote...

Sargerus wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

Sargerus wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

What irks me alot is that if they were planning this for years, then they've been lying for years.

Show me ONE quote from a BW dev saying that Shepard would have a happy rainbow ending in the series conclusion.

Who said I said they said that there would be happy ending? Geez jumping on me for no reason really in defense of this bad ending are you? They said they've been planning the ending for a long time.

So, why you are saying they are lying? Your logic is flawed.

lol your logic is flawed /argument.

There is only one ending, and they've been flaunting choice around for years.

lol what

[Sylvanpyxie]

If someone figures out how to build new mass relays the galaxy should be back in communication in a fairly short time.

First you need to take into account the time required to understand and perfect the technology.

You need to take into account they'd need to be certain they're safe to travel.

Then take into account the materials required.

Then take into account transport to systems in order to build. 

Then take into account build time.

We're looking at decades, at least.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 04 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[BaronIveagh]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Why have the Reapers not simply imploded due to this fact?

Becasue logic is not allowed. After all, soemthing just told me it's the central control system for all reaperdom and I'm carrying a Cain with two shots in it, but can't blast it, giving every reaper everywhere an instant labotomy, because the plot doesn't allow that.

[DifferentD17]

blueruin wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

Sargerus wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

Sargerus wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

What irks me alot is that if they were planning this for years, then they've been lying for years.

Show me ONE quote from a BW dev saying that Shepard would have a happy rainbow ending in the series conclusion.

Who said I said they said that there would be happy ending? Geez jumping on me for no reason really in defense of this bad ending are you? They said they've been planning the ending for a long time.

So, why you are saying they are lying? Your logic is flawed.

lol your logic is flawed /argument.

There is only one ending, and they've been flaunting choice around for years.

lol what

lol what

[rtv053]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Holy flaming nuns..

It's actually a paradox.

Reapers exist to preserve organic life, they do so by eliminating major threats.

Organic life, once allowed to achieve sentience, is self-destructive by nature. It wages war for the sake of expansion, greed, need or simply because one group of people are different from another.

War leads to destruction, not only of life itself, but of the world around us.

The world, or in this case, the universe is the only thing sustaining life. Ultimately if the universe is gone, there is nothing to sustain life. So technically speaking all threats to the universe but be destroyed in order to sustain the universe to sustain organic life..

Ultimately, anything that is capable of sentient thought, needs to be eliminated before it's allowed to achieve sentience. This includes organic life, as once organic life achieves sentience it becomes a threat to organic life.

Why have the Reapers not simply imploded due to this fact?

It's not so much a paradox as a moral conundrum. The Revelation Space series by Alastair Reynolds is very similar in concept to Mass Effect. The version of the Reapers in that narrative, the Inhibitors, work to stop sentient spacefaring life from spreading too far across the galaxy. Unfortunately, they do this by murdering them. They have good reasons for this - they want to keep sentient life in certain parts of the galaxy to avoid mass extinction when the Milky Way collides with another galaxy in 3 billion years. The Inhibitors do the terrible things they do because they have a moral imperative to preserve life, in whatever form it may take. Every species is given its chance, but the Inhibitors will not let the choices of present-day species doom those who have yet to drag themselves out of the primordial mud.

[Canned Bullets]

Apparently if you import a game and get 4000 to 5000 war assets you get a better ending so I'm going to try that. If not I'll burn my Mass Effect 3 copy after I finish it.

[TheDaaave]

Hexxys wrote...

If nothing we do affects the ending of the story, what does it matter how we got there?  The "endings" of the previous games weren't the end of the story.  They were the end of those titles.  ME3's ending destroys the ME universe as we know it.  And there's nothing we can do to mitigate it or avoid it completely.  So, what's the point?

That pretty much sums it up for me. Bioware wrecking that fantastic and mature universe as we know it. I can accept a certain amount of sacrifice but this is beyond ridiculous.

And then they come along and are like: "Trollololol it was all just a bed-time story."
Also this kid is slowly becoming Bioware's Jar Jar Binks,

[KateKane]

Sargerus wrote...

Also, the "omg only one ending!!" doesn't work here. both previous games also had only ONe ending in general:


ME1: Shepard kills Saren/Sovereign, save the Citadel

ME2: Shepard kill the Collectors

Neither of those is the last game of a trilogy.

[albertalad]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Technological Singularity.

If you look past your bias and the characters themselves, you'll see it all fits, maybe not as snuggly as the previous dark-energy ending but this does fit, and it makes sense, and the Reapers were never just "bad guys", you didn't know anything about them except their subtle alluded to motives.

Are you still going on about that crap? 

For those who don't know, "the singularity" just the rapture for nerds, religious nonsense painted over too look scientific, with a high prophet who cherry-picks his datapoints to make his case look like more than wishful thinking. 

The Reapers were always nothing more than arrogant, self-righteous monsters, and never will be anything else. 

Exactly, the Reapers are nothing more than monster who went insane, rampaging and murdering, now justifying their countless glactic "genocide" to suit their our murdering idiocy. That IS the defination of violent insanity.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Aesieru wrote...

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Rdubs wrote...

"Tech singularity and reapers being good guys" had never been "built up throughout the series if you just paid attention." Not even with the strongest amounts of hindsight bias can one reasonable try to claim that. On March 6th we'll see just how many people are like "you're right that was alluded to all along guess I messed it" versus "what the hell was that?????".

I just played both games over the past week, 100% everything. 

I assure you it was. Not the most directly, but it isn't a surprise to me.

Actually though I hate to agree with Aesieru on anything here, the Reapers ending up being the 'good guys' was foreshadowed in the previous two games.  I was just hoping Bioware would have a clue and not actually go down that path.  Apparently I was wrong /sigh

Yes, because making things more complex than "Hah I am bad" is good story writing.

Apparently agreeing with me is also bad.

Is food with more than one flavor bad too?

The "misunderstood villain" has been done to death.  It's a tired, trite, and contrived cliche at this point. 

The Reapers wipe out, enslave, torture, etc, intelligent life on a regular and premeditated basis. 

There is no way to make them into "the good guys" no matter how much you want to try.

[Reorte]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

If someone figures out how to build new mass relays the galaxy should be back in communication in a fairly short time.

First you need to take into account the time required to understand and perfect the technology.

You need to take into account they'd need to be certain they're safe to travel.

Then take into account the materials required.

Then take into account transport to systems in order to build. 

Then take into account build time.

We're looking at decades, at least.

It's sufficient hope for the future though, even if not the current generation (other than for the asari and krogan). Hell, if someone told me that in 200 years we'll be living amongst all sorts of interesting aliens throughout the galaxy I'd find that great and really hopeful even though I won't be alive to see it.

[noxsachi]

N7Sarge wrote...

I'd really forget about the general bad writing in ME3, the plotholes and the reapers' motivation if there was at least one decent ending - doesn't need to be an absolute happy ending but something that makes you think you won at least something.
Let the Normandy crash on earth with its survivors and let Shepard be reunited with his crew. I think this would be accepted and make a much better ending than the other ones.

Pretty much this. I am not expecting oh everything is clean and shiny and good, even if you do it perfect. I expect Earth to be a burned out ruined. I just want to see my crew together, to be with my LI, with the series ending on a sunrise over the ruined husk of the world, with reaper corpses burning around me. That'd be grim sure, but it would be satisfying. You wouldn't have anyone say it is all roses and happyness, but at least it is not a punch in the gut like the current ones.