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So we can't get the ending we want after all?


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#15251
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wolfsite wrote...

I have about 17 other characters from ME1 and ME2.  I'm not importing them.  It just feels pointless if the choices I have made mean nothing in the end.


I think this is the real problem I have with the ending. All the choices and species and characters I've encountered are meaningless. They are reduced to a number score for the highly inadequate Galactic Readiness System. War assets seemed like a very interesting idea until you see the end of the game and realize no matter how many or few assets you collect, they do not influence the end of the game.

The trilogy was supposed to reflect the choices we have made in the trilogy, but they aren't represented when it matters most. Instead of multipe and varying endings that reflect our choices, we get almost entirely identical 20 second cinematics depicting the final actions of the crucible. And to make matters worse, we don't even get good epilogue cinematics, we just get the same clips of the crucible firing, soldiers on earth and the normandy crash landing.

Not only are the choices we made throughout the trilogy not represented in the ending, but the choice in the ending isn't even adequately represented in the ending cinematics. 

#15252
Kortenx12

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laughing sherpa girl wrote...

I guess this has been posted here??


That was brilliant. I have seen many of those, but that is great, so true.

#15253
Militarized

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I disagree that conventional warfare wouldn't work. Well, the WAY you would wage conventional warfare wouldn't work they are correct.. with supply lines and small fleet engagements with the way the codex describes the space warfare.

However... in ME3 we see a worm destroy a reaper, almost fairly easily, then we have one fleet with subpar weapons(the other fleets - Turian, humans, asari and salarians, elcor, etc, etc have the thanix cannon standard according to the codex but not the quarians) taking down another reaper in 4 hits, most of the firing seems to miss and in space I assume they'd hit more. Anyway my point being is they kill that Reaper as well, I know it was only a destroyer but that is the majority of the reaper fleet according to the Codex.

Again, not that it matters since as it's been said before they force you into a horrible ending.

Modifié par Militarized, 10 mars 2012 - 01:36 .


#15254
DirtyBird627

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Honestly, I think they tried to do too much in terms of making the ending this ridiculous philosophical choice. Instead, they could have just had the crucible be a device that brought down the barriers on all ships in the system. Reapers are vulnerable with their barriers down, and the barriers on the coalition ships don't seem to help any since the Reapers can one-shot them anyway. At that point it would be a more level playing field, and would come down to how many fleets you were able to gather. At least that way, all that work you did to unite everyone would seem to actually matter...

#15255
nitefyre410

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CrisisOne wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

CrisisOne wrote...

I have to ask, regardless of which ending we choose, what happens to the people on the citadel!?, I mean it looks like they either get entombed forever or blown up, so...

 

they are very, very... dead and packed in the  halls in a  vary grizzly man... I think that is scene thats going to stick with me the most. 

no, I mean the people living there before it was brought to earth

 

Dead... maybe a few lucky ones got away..  considering that there was a good amount humans on there as well.    The aliens ..well.. .sucks to be them.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 10 mars 2012 - 01:37 .


#15256
ascended1

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Kitten Tactics wrote...
You were so close.


Exactly.  Such a shame.

#15257
wildannie

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Nyila wrote...


I know. I haven't played with my character that romanced him in ME2 yet, I think I won't, it seems rather pointless. That was another thing that bugged me: MShep gets all his LIs back, while FemShep doesn't. It's dumb.


That is such a good point , although it's more than dumb, its cruel, mean and a good way to alienate fans.

#15258
Nyila

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nitefyre410 wrote...

CrisisOne wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

CrisisOne wrote...

I have to ask, regardless of which ending we choose, what happens to the people on the citadel!?, I mean it looks like they either get entombed forever or blown up, so...

 

they are very, very... dead and packed in the  halls in a  vary grizzly man... I think that is scene thats going to stick with me the most. 

no, I mean the people living there before it was brought to earth

 

Dead... maybe a few lucky ones got away... or did you think the Reapers did with them...  considering that there a good amount humans on there as well.    The aliens ..well.. .sucks to be them.


They kinda were told in ME1 that the Citadel was a Reaper.. Their fault, I won't cry for them, I'd rather Shepard and Anderson leave the Citadel alive before it gets blown to hell.

#15259
Si-Shen

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The ending of the game personally, felt like it was part of another game series, the entire series has felt like an old 80s or 90s action movie, then they decided to just change it up at the very end. Why, no matter what I do, does my decisions prior to this have no effect on my story? I can understand that if you don't do enough of something or rush in that hey, you didn't do enough, sorry, its death but ok.

I honestly thought that they got a bit lazy with these endings, it might sound corny or something but atleast one of them, somehow should have felt like the ending of the first game, you coming out, alive somehow, one could have had you die, but seriously there was no real choice with these, die, die or die. What does it matter if I help anyone if I can get through to the end, I win but die anyway. Why put all the work into my playthrough if I will just die anyway?

#15260
Tartilus

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It's important to get our terminology straight when discussing this matter: the endings of Mass Effect 3 are 'bad' not in the sense that they are unhappy, though they most certainly are, but because they are poorly done. It's not necessarily a bad story, it's bad storytelling.

Primarily, the game breaks one of my cardinal rules of good storytelling (as a writer, I will presume to offer as much, though this is admittedly egotistical): the extent to which I am willing to tolerate a bad ending is directly proportional to the inverse of the extent to which I needed to suspend my disbelief. In other words, the 'bad' ending to any story serves to make statements about the nature of life and, as is especially relevant in this instance, war. There is nothing wrong with this - indeed, it can be an extremely valuable form of storytelling, though I would perhaps question its applicability in a game marketed around the concept of choice and whose purpose, regardless of its status as art, is ultimately entertainment. But to make these sorts of statements about the way things really work, you have to make the ending feel real, even if that is only in the context of the universe. The escape of your crew, their getting knocked out of an otherwise instantaneous trip through the relay and landing on a suspiciously well-placed tropical planet, does not make sense. It is at the very best unclear and confusing, and at worst extremely contrived and 'forced.'

Even if such an ending did make sense – even if the teleportation and untimely departure of crew members who were on earth (some of them perhaps killed, and the fact that this is also unclear is telling) were to be miraculously explained in a fashion which is acceptable, this would not lift the burden of providing closure for those characters and the storylines associated therewith. I am familiar with, and moderately sympathetic towards, arguments that no amount of additional explanation would ever be sufficient, but this does not justify completely forgoing that process and leaving the ending so vague that speculation regarding near-every aspect is rampant.
Indeed, this is the exact opposite of 'closure', which is what I thought had been promised; I'd go so far as to posit that we received as little closure as could possibly be imagined, short of the game cutting to the credits immediately after you make your 'choice.' This is a fundamental failure of storytelling, and I'm honestly surprised that it was permitted.

There is also the sense, perhaps inaccurate, that the consequences of the endings were not fully imagined in the framework of the ME universe. As has been noted extensively, the endings appear to leave a galaxy almost entirely disconnected, stripped of its military (a sizable portion of whom are apparently likely to starve, and given the state of the earth, it seems equally probable that the other half will be undergoing near-equal famine,) with any world not entirely self-sufficient - every station which needed additional supplies, every colony which was dependent on agricultural worlds – doomed to the mass starvation of its people, and no expectation that these matters will be resolved in anything like a short-term timescale. It is possible this sort of devastation is, in fact, the expected outcome. That would be bold, but boldness is perhaps too rarely exhibited in writing nowadays, so it might also be admirable. This level of devastation does not, however, permit of the sort of ending which leaves almost every conceivable question unanswered.

I'm not certain how this happened. It may be that, in the echo chamber of ME writers, they somehow convinced themselves that these endings were satisfactory. It may be that, as individuals creating this game for a living, they failed to connect with the characters and storylines to the extent needed to empathize with and predict the feelings of... betrayal might not be too strong a word, which so many players are grappling with. It may be that the game was rushed. It may even be that the individuals in question just aren't very good at crafting endings, as cruel as suggesting that may seem. Regardless of the reasons, it's unclear to me whether they honestly think they did a good job, but I would proffer that this ending is objectively poor. If it were the ending to a novel – a beloved trilogy - the editor would've sent it back splashed in red ink and question marks. As a consumer who loved this series, the characters, and the journey Bioware took me on, I feel inclined to do the same.

I wanted to adore Mass Effect 3 - to exalt it as the perfect end to the RPG series of the decade. I almost could've, but in the end all this game did was kick me in the stomach and leave me with a million questions. If nothing else, it serves as an interesting example of how completely an ending can make or break a piece of art;  that I can see no other purpose for it honestly breaks my heart.  

Modifié par Tartilus, 10 mars 2012 - 01:45 .


#15261
XenoAlbedo

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#15262
Prince Keldar

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Militarized wrote...

I disagree that conventional warfare wouldn't work. Well, the WAY you would wage conventional warfare wouldn't work they are correct.. with supply lines and small fleet engagements with the way the codex describes the space warfare.

However... in ME3 we see a worm destroy a reaper, almost fairly easily, then we have one fleet with subpar weapons(the other fleets - Turian, humans, asari and salarians, elcor, etc, etc have the thanix cannon standard according to the codex but not the quarians) taking down another reaper in 4 hits, most of the firing seems to miss and in space I assume they'd hit more. Anyway my point being is they kill that Reaper as well, I know it was only a destroyer but that is the majority of the reaper fleet according to the Codex.

Again, not that it matters since as it's been said before they force you into a horrible ending.


And the crucible idea could work too just make it be a way to weaken the Reapers so that they were on more on par with the galactic fleets and then your galactic readiness score could determine if you win or lose that battle.

#15263
CrisisOne

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nitefyre410 wrote...

CrisisOne wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

CrisisOne wrote...

I have to ask, regardless of which ending we choose, what happens to the people on the citadel!?, I mean it looks like they either get entombed forever or blown up, so...

 

they are very, very... dead and packed in the  halls in a  vary grizzly man... I think that is scene thats going to stick with me the most. 

no, I mean the people living there before it was brought to earth

 

Dead... maybe a few lucky ones got away... or did you think the Reapers did with them...  considering that there a good amount humans on there as well.    The aliens ..well.. .sucks to be them.


that does suck, lol 

#15264
Ameno Xiel

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Just posted the link to this thread and this poll on the www.masseffect-game.de forum. (leading german fansite for Mass Effect, EA-Community Award 2011 Winner).

They've just begun discussing the endings but I think the trend is going to be the same as here. Disappointment.

#15265
humes spork

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DirtyBird627 wrote...

.... and then that beam. Everything after that beam was surreal, I honestly thought Shepard was having a dream sequence for a bit, then I realized that it was the actual ending, I was actually in shock for quite a while.


I was completely good right up until the catalyst bit. I was totally down for the surreal, gross-ass survival horror hell walk that culminated in the confrontation with TIM. That whole thing was one of the creepiest, most unsettling things I'd experienced in a game since freakin' Silent Hill 2, and it was awesome. Hell, after playing through ME3 I was completely prepared for and wanted my Shepard to make the heroic sacrifice so she'd save the galaxy and finally be at peace (because god knows she'd never know peace having lived through all that).

After that was when the whole thing completely fell apart -- when it turned into a contrived, nihilistic, deus ex machina ending that completely negated the meaning and impact of the journey. The only remotely positive thing after that stupid honkin' glowing lift was the peaceful smile on Shepard's face when she was dying during control and merge.

#15266
Hiyanu

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Alamandorious wrote...

I would have liked to see a happy ending or...at least an ending with Shepard, critically wounded, dying in the arms of his LI after saving the Galaxy.  There were so many hints...well, more like bludgeons...that Shep was going to be sacrificed for the good of the Galaxy that I had braced myself for that ending...I thought, maybe, I hadn't done enough in game to get the best possible ending, and that these 'hints' were little indicators of that.

Well.  I was wrong, apparently.

A good ending would have had life picking up again in the Galaxy, showing each of the characters as they progressed in their day to day lives as things settled down.  Depending on what you did, showing the various political rammifications of alliances or enemies made.  Finally, maybe showing Shep's LI in mourning, but not giving up on life and moving on because Shep would have wanted them to live on.

This game had phenominal writing for the different sequences and such, and I was moved many times by the sacrifices of characters I had come to like (even Kal'Reegar, the little e-mail you get about him brought a bitter smile to my lips).  The dialogue was all really awesome, and it felt epic...and then, just when you expect the epic ending...you get these.  Without an option for a happier ending.  Even if you make the effort to do everything perfectly, you as the player get these lukewarm, bitter endings. 

There's no bittersweet about it; no only do you lose Shepard, but the friends he/she made and all the people he tried to save get the shaft, no matter what.  Yes, you beat the Reapers...but in the end, trillions are still doomed to die a slow, lingering death because they're on worlds (such as Novaria) that can't possibly support life.

All in all, this is not the end this series deserved.  The gameplay up until the ending, yes, was brilliant...but the final cap was so anticlimatic that it ruins everything.


Quote for truth.

At points throughout playing through the story it made me throw my fists into the air cheering triumphantly, heartbroken from friends sacrificing themselves for my cause. That feeling of victory when the races you bring together, and most importantly the feeling of hope while making promises to your friends and LI (mine was Tali).

After I chose the synthesis ending which I believed to be the best option since it would not only end the killing but also bring everyone together and end the cycle of 'chaos'. I felt it was worse than the secret dog ending to silent hill and porky pig was supposed to come out bdee-bdee-bdee-that's all folks!

If possible I would hope that something bioware does later on is not change the ending but give us an extended and proper epilogue that ties everything together instead of just showing the half result of us being hybrid organic machines, with the inclusion of our love interests in some way since they were a big part of the story of shepard.


Above all I'm happy with the ending not being a happy one, just wish it would be more elaborate like the ending of Christopher Paolini's, The Inheritance Cycle. For anyone who has read this, knows that, that is how a bittersweet ending should be.

#15267
FugitiveMind

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Well, for those of us bent on deluding ourselves, I recommend a look at:

http://social.biowar...27423/1#9727423

If we're going to make up our own in mind endings anyways, may as well delude ourselves with hope too.

#15268
Mr. Big Pimpin

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That poll has now hit over 6000 votes (second-most of any BSN poll ever).

About 200 of those were positive.

#15269
SolidisusSnake1

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Kitten Tactics wrote...

I finished Mass Effect 3 yesterday.  The first thing I did was come to this community for the first time to see if anyone else out there felt the way I did.  After waiting the 24 hour probation period, I am posting immediately.

I can not help but regret ever getting invested in the series.

I love Mass Effect.  I love the universe and characters, the stories, the little details that make everything feel somewhat plausible.  I have the games on all of their available platforms.  I bought the big fancy art book because I simply can not get enough Mass Effect.

I spent about 30 hours with Mass Effect 3.  I loved the multiplayer, and I LOVED the story until the last 5 minutes.  

And now, with no exaggeration, the Mass Effect universe is ruined for me.  I have never watched, read, or played anything that has left this pit in my stomach that ME3 has.  The endings completely invalidate everything that I have spent over 1,000 hours working towards.  

I'm one of those people who just loved being in that universe.  I played through the first two games over a dozen times each, simply because I loved inhabiting them.  And now I look at the trilogy, sitting on my shelf.  After 5 years of waiting I can finally play through the entire trilogy and go on the roller coaster.

But I don't want to.  I want nothing to do with them.  What's the point of fighting for 60 hours when my final choice is between 3 lose-lose situations?

I hate this.  Bioware, you were so close, you don't even know it.  ME3 was banging on all cylinders until the last 5 minutes.  The last .05% of the game ruined the entire universe for me.  And now this thing that I have loved for 5 years, that I always came back to and felt good about no matter what bad I had going on in my life, is gone.  

Why not even give the option for a simple, coherent ending?  It's as if you came across a member of your audience in the desert.  And instead of giving them a drink from your water bottle, you built a rube goldberg device that dumps a bucket of water on their head.  And if they do the proper amount of sidequests, they get to lick a drop or two off of their skin.  Couldn't you just give us the drink of water?

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler". - Albert Einstein

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication". - Leonardo Da Vinci

"It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away". - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Why could you not have just even given the OPTION (something this series has always been about at it's core) for a clear, and hopeful ending?  We don't need more intrigue and questions at the very end of a 90 hour experience.  

Let us unite the galaxy to destroy the reapers, not serve as a distraction while we talk to a space ghost.  Or make the Crucible a superweapon that kills the Reapers, spares everyone else, and show us the consequences of the actions taken by all of the races, along with a message of hope.  Or make it so that the Crucible turns the Citadel into a giant bomb so that in order to defeat the Reapers by martial means, we must sacrifice the center of our galactic community.  How hard would that have been?  We don't even get the OPTION?!

J.R.R Tolkien came up with the notion of "Eucatastrophe", which is the sudden, unpredictable, and unexplainable turn from bad to good, where night becomes day.  It fills the audience with a joy that can not be attained any other way, and he lamented at how little it appears in modern stories.  I went in to this game thinking that my 90+ hours of work would earn me the OPTION of experiencing a eucatastrophe.  

Instead, what I got was one long, 5 year, heartbreaking, soulcrushing, catastrophe.

And maybe that sounds crazy to you, but I don't care.  This series was the thing that I liked investing my time and interest in.  I expected to cry at the end.  And I did.  But it wasn't because I was emotional about the outcome of the story.  It was because this thing that I have loved for 1/5 of my life, now means nothing to me in the blink of an eye, and it is heartbreaking.

You were so close.


You said it all, I cant even bring myself to look at my Xbox let alone play the game again.

#15270
GeneralGrey

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There are a ludicrous number of problems with the ways this game, and thereby the whole ME saga, ends. Most have already been discussed at length in this thread, but I want to focus on just one: the catalyst/citadel/whatever (i.e. the all-knowing mastermind of the galaxy that we're suddenly introduced to in the last 5 minutes of a forty hour game, perhaps a 120 hour trilogy).

What on earth was Bioware thinking with this thing? You can't make something this central to the entire lore of Mass Effect just one big MacGuffin. What is this thing? Where did it come from? Why should I trust it? Why is it letting me decide anything at all? We spend less time talking to this supposed galactic arbiter than we did talking to Vigil back in ME1. Hell, we spend about as much time talking to it as we did talking to Harbinger in Arrival, and that was stinking DLC.

I want answers, I want closure, I want to understand where the Reapers came from, why they act the way they do, and why one measly, half-dead human is now being handed the keys to galactic evolution. Yet I get none of that. Instead I'm introduced to this thing, told it mystically created the Reapers as the solution to chaos, and then instructed via an insanely convoluted and confusing diatribe to make one choice that will essentially overwrite every other decision I've made across three games. Up to this point, everything appeared to be wrapping up nicely. Yet suddenly, at the VERY END, an entirely new entity is invented that raises exponentially more questions than it answers. Why the heck if synthesis is a viable option that cures chaos without killing trillions did this thing not pick that? Why would these signals cause the mass relays to explode? What is going to happen to the unified fleets of every major species of the galaxy that will suddenly become stuck in the Sol system after such an explosion? Apparently, we don't need to know. Shame on us for even being interested.

I'm not saying that these or any other questions don't have perfectly reasonable, in-fiction answers. I'm just surprised and depressed that the developers made absolutely no attempts to answer them.

#15271
fmantr

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Let's just make a synthetics which will kill all organics, so those organics won't create the syntetics which'll kill them.

Yeah, this kind of logic is completely beyond the understanding, so the Sovereign was right in the conversation with him.

#15272
XenoAlbedo

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Let's kill them first before they do! We don't want our gang rep ruined by a bunch of lamp heads that intend no harm at all now do we?
-The Reapers

#15273
Denethar

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At this point I'll just take the ending where Shepard tells Citadel Vent Boy "We will never surrender!" and then the Reapers wipe everyone out.

#15274
Alamandorious

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Believe it or not, read a fanfic called Fallout: Equestria. Yes, an MLP/Fallout crossover (and by Fallout, I mean there's elements from just about every fallout game in it).

You go through the story with the main character narrating events to you. She meets new people, makes strong friendships...people that get hurt, badly, and sometimes even die. You watch her struggle against the misery of the post apocalyptic wasteland, staying true to her values no matter what.

And, in the end, (sorry for the spoiler for those who may want to read it) she sacrifices herself to bring a brilliant beacon of hope back to the inhabitants of the waste...she doesn't die, perse, but she can never ever be amongst her friends again in any real way.

The final moments of this story are epic, and the author provides you with an epilogue of what's happening in the wastes 10 years later, the end results of everything the main character did...

The professional writers of the Mass Effect series need to take a lesson from this 'amateur' writer.

Seriously, check it out, if you can get beyond the MLP part of it, you'll find a well written and excellently done story.

#15275
Eumerin

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GeneralGrey wrote...
What on earth was Bioware thinking with this thing? You can't make something this central to the entire lore of Mass Effect just one big MacGuffin. What is this thing? Where did it come from? Why should I trust it? Why is it letting me decide anything at all? We spend less time talking to this supposed galactic arbiter than we did talking to Vigil back in ME1. Hell, we spend about as much time talking to it as we did talking to Harbinger in Arrival, and that was stinking DLC.


Based on the (probably inaccurate) statements made by the Prothean VI during the game, it's likely that the Crucible was designed by the same group that created the Reapers.  I've got a post somewhere that explains the reasoning somewhat, but the important thing is that when you sit down and add up what the Crucible does and how it works, the only reasonable explanation is that it was created by the same race(s) that created the Catalyst and the Reapers.