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[xtorma]

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

syllogi wrote...

The people saying we're unrealistic fluff lovers are right. Who needs to feel good when playing a game???

I'm going to go do my taxes right now, and meditate on how gritty and realistic the experience is. There are no frivolous love interests or unnecessary happy endings when I'm writing a check to the government!!! Awesome!!!

Not all stories require a happy ending. Not all stories are even better with them. Not all games are meant to make you feel good about them. 

As games grow out of it's adolescense and start attempting to tackle more mature and human subject matter, this will become more prevalent. I find it odd that people don't harshly criticize a novel or a movie for having a bittersweet or even grim ending, sometimes are even lauded for it, yet video games are help under heavy scrutiny for it. 

the choices are vast , yet the consequences are narrow. It makes absolutly no sense....IF these leaks are true.

[Allworkandlowpay]

Tietj wrote...
Yes, that's all very well, but there are plenty of stories with happy endings that are considered great works of literature.  Conversely, a depressing ending doesn't automatically equal "art," any more than shooting a film in black and white does.  In a game as ostensibly choice-based and open-ended as Mass Effect, a happy ending, or even a bittersweet ending where the squadmates you've worked with for three games aren't completely screwed, would have been perfectly acceptable.

You are absolutely correct. I wasn't implying that Mass Effect was a high art watermark of video game storytelling, nor would I say their decision to have ONLY bittersweet endings is ideal, I'm just making an observation on the dichotomy of expectations between film goers/novel readers and video game players. A movie might not be better with a grim ending, but I've rarely heard any film goers say that they shouldn't be subjected to a grim ending in that medium. That's what we are getting here on this forum currently.

[Carnage752]

Bat32391 wrote...

Nice to know Bioware screwed up on this one well whatever I stillf have Skyrim so I'll be fine.

So much buildup... For this? God this sucks.

[f1ndmenow]

Man this might become the largest form yet in a matter of hours... Bioware is going to have eyes on it

[Reives]

I think the contrast from the appreciation of non-happy endings in books and movies and a game like ME is something comparable to an uncanny valley of interactivity -- the player is given a glimmer of hope that they could make everything okay if they were to work for it (which was somewhat enforced by the previous installments), and then it broke out of the loop.

I'll have to wait until I play it to see how it's pulled off, but something like that is certainly bound to tick many off. Either way, it'll definitely be an interesting social experiment! 

Modifié par Reives, 29 février 2012 - 05:07 .

[casedawgz]

ratzerman wrote...

It's like watching a 120 hour version of The English Patient that cost you $250.

And you didn't even get to see Ralph Fiennes.

[txgoldrush]

adneate wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
and you may post even more stupid opinions based on lack of context

I belive I shall, good luck trying to convert people to your opinion though! I'm sure you'll get a convert one of these days, keep reaching for the dream.

And my opinion is better. Why? Because I do not base mine without context.

You HAVE NO CONTEXT, therefore your opinion is uneducated at best, completely idiotic at worst, just like most of the posters here.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 29 février 2012 - 05:08 .

[syllogi]

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

syllogi wrote...

The people saying we're unrealistic fluff lovers are right. Who needs to feel good when playing a game???

I'm going to go do my taxes right now, and meditate on how gritty and realistic the experience is. There are no frivolous love interests or unnecessary happy endings when I'm writing a check to the government!!! Awesome!!!

Not all stories require a happy ending. Not all stories are even better with them. Not all games are meant to make you feel good about them. 

As games grow out of it's adolescense and start attempting to tackle more mature and human subject matter, this will become more prevalent. I find it odd that people don't harshly criticize a novel or a movie for having a bittersweet or even grim ending, sometimes are even lauded for it, yet video games are help under heavy scrutiny for it. 

Some of my favorite novels and movies have unhappy endings.  However, they're not gratuitous.  At the end of "Requiem For A Dream" or "No Country For Old Men," I didn't feel like the directors had emotionally blackmailed me.  I felt like the endings were thematically appropriate to the story they had just told.  When pretty much all of the characters in the First Law Trilogy come out worse for wear in the end, I found it fitting, because each ending fit the individual characters, and it made sense.

Taking the Normandy at the last moment, and hurling it far away from Shepard, with all of his/her friends and loved ones on board, is randomly throwing in angst because they couldn't be bothered to create a truly gripping scenario.  It's not explained well, we don't know why/how the henchmen who were with Shepard got there...it's like suddenly cutting to a cute kitten being beaten to death.  Drama for no reason isn't dramatic.  It's cheap, and lazy.

[Deathspinkshadow]

http://social.biowar...7/index/9527902 The way the lockdown was worded. . .makes me nervous.

[Big I]

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...
The Romans kept slaves and conquered most of the world they knew about. By todays standards that's indefensible, but it doesn't take away from the worth of their technological achievements.


German scientists were at the forefront of the space program after WW2, and many of them worked on weapons programs during the war. Does that invalidate the space program? I'd argue not.

You have a point, but only in the sense that it shows that what is occuring in the Mass Effect universe really doesn't have a parallel to our world. 

You are right though, there are many people who wouldn't want to throw away technological advancements just because they were tainted by slavery, destruction and death. But ask somebody in Israel if they'd like to use weapons tested on their ancestors during WW2, I think we both no the answer.

There will be people on both sides in the Mass Effect universe. There will be forward thinkers, people who like the Illusive Man, would spare no expense at reverse engineering the Relays or try to create their own, perhaps even try to extract the knowledge of their creation from the brains of a dead Reaper. There are others who will want to take this as a way to turn a new leaf in not just human existance, but organic existance. 

Either way, the metaphorical nature of the Relays' destruction still stands.

I'm fine with people choosing not to use the relays if that's their choice. That's the only way the relays gain a moral value, as a corollary of people's views on their use and constuction. Absent an intelligent species debating how or if to use the relays, in full knowledge of where they come from, the relays are no more metaphorical than any artifact from a previous culture.

[Allworkandlowpay]

xtorma wrote...
the choices are vast , yet the consequences are narrow. It makes absolutly no sense....IF these leaks are true.

It makes sense if you understand how the construction of such a game is done. As for the consequences, you have to stop looking at the end game and start looking at the broader scope of the game. This is the same thing that happened in ME2, people said your choices didn't really carry over, yet they did, and added a ton of minutiae that were only visible after multiple playthroughs with different choices from the first. The same seems, from the script and the GAW leaks, to be present in ME3, but even more-so.

Yes the endings are roughly the same, it's likely due out of necessity. If you plan on making a sequel in that world (and all appearances seem to point to a certain "yes",) you can't have a multitude of vastly different endings, and somehow make that work in a sequel.

[adneate]

txgoldrush wrote...
And my opinion is better. Why? Because I do not base mine without context.

You HAVE NO CONTEXT, therefore your opinion is uneducated at best, completely idiotic at worst, just like most of the posters here.

Thank God we have people like you here otherwise we wouldn't know! Truly you are a hero to the republic, your noble mision to be recorded for the ages.

[casedawgz]

syllogi wrote...

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

syllogi wrote...

The people saying we're unrealistic fluff lovers are right. Who needs to feel good when playing a game???

I'm going to go do my taxes right now, and meditate on how gritty and realistic the experience is. There are no frivolous love interests or unnecessary happy endings when I'm writing a check to the government!!! Awesome!!!

Not all stories require a happy ending. Not all stories are even better with them. Not all games are meant to make you feel good about them. 

As games grow out of it's adolescense and start attempting to tackle more mature and human subject matter, this will become more prevalent. I find it odd that people don't harshly criticize a novel or a movie for having a bittersweet or even grim ending, sometimes are even lauded for it, yet video games are help under heavy scrutiny for it. 

Some of my favorite novels and movies have unhappy endings.  However, they're not gratuitous.  At the end of "Requiem For A Dream" or "No Country For Old Men," I didn't feel like the directors had emotionally blackmailed me.  I felt like the endings were thematically appropriate to the story they had just told.  When pretty much all of the characters in the First Law Trilogy come out worse for wear in the end, I found it fitting, because each ending fit the individual characters, and it made sense.

Taking the Normandy at the last moment, and hurling it far away from Shepard, with all of his/her friends and loved ones on board, is randomly throwing in angst because they couldn't be bothered to create a truly gripping scenario.  It's not explained well, we don't know why/how the henchmen who were with Shepard got there...it's like suddenly cutting to a cute kitten being beaten to death.  Drama for no reason isn't dramatic.  It's cheap, and lazy.

I agree, although I do think having Lewellyn die off-screen was cheap considering how much time the movie spends in scenes with him alone in his motel rooms.

[yoshibb]

Dragonfable of Dain wrote...

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

syllogi wrote...

The people saying we're unrealistic fluff lovers are right. Who needs to feel good when playing a game???

I'm going to go do my taxes right now, and meditate on how gritty and realistic the experience is. There are no frivolous love interests or unnecessary happy endings when I'm writing a check to the government!!! Awesome!!!

Not all stories require a happy ending. Not all stories are even better with them. Not all games are meant to make you feel good about them. 

As games grow out of it's adolescense and start attempting to tackle more mature and human subject matter, this will become more prevalent. I find it odd that people don't harshly criticize a novel or a movie for having a bittersweet or even grim ending, sometimes are even lauded for it, yet video games are help under heavy scrutiny for it. 

I think it's because we put ourselves in the game, so when the game has a "bad" ending it makes us feel like we failed in whatever the mission was, while in movies and books we are just observers watching others make mistakes. Sooo in short it's because we take it way to personally.

Movies and books will never reach the self involvement of a game. When the character fails then it's not just them who fails, it's us who fails. It feels the same way as if I've failed in life. Except I can't make up for it in a game, the story is over.

Another thing, you can't have two games that were not tragedies and in the last game make it a tragedy. The build up is not there. Trilogies work in a manner of intro, suffering, triumph. The more invested you make a person the less accepting they will be of a tragic ending.

Not to mention this is a game of choice. If you can't choose to be anything other than miserable than you shouldn't have made a game about choice!

Sometimes, I miss when games were just about winning. You beat the giant dinosaur, you win. Hooray!

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

casedawgz wrote...

Most books don't take five years and a $150 dollars to read. I need to feel like I've succeeded at the end of this half-decade long endeavor. 

I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite comeback in the Citadel

[Mr.House]

syllogi wrote...

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

syllogi wrote...

The people saying we're unrealistic fluff lovers are right. Who needs to feel good when playing a game???

I'm going to go do my taxes right now, and meditate on how gritty and realistic the experience is. There are no frivolous love interests or unnecessary happy endings when I'm writing a check to the government!!! Awesome!!!

Not all stories require a happy ending. Not all stories are even better with them. Not all games are meant to make you feel good about them. 

As games grow out of it's adolescense and start attempting to tackle more mature and human subject matter, this will become more prevalent. I find it odd that people don't harshly criticize a novel or a movie for having a bittersweet or even grim ending, sometimes are even lauded for it, yet video games are help under heavy scrutiny for it. 

Some of my favorite novels and movies have unhappy endings.  However, they're not gratuitous.  At the end of "Requiem For A Dream" or "No Country For Old Men," I didn't feel like the directors had emotionally blackmailed me.  I felt like the endings were thematically appropriate to the story they had just told.  When pretty much all of the characters in the First Law Trilogy come out worse for wear in the end, I found it fitting, because each ending fit the individual characters, and it made sense.

Taking the Normandy at the last moment, and hurling it far away from Shepard, with all of his/her friends and loved ones on board, is randomly throwing in angst because they couldn't be bothered to create a truly gripping scenario.  It's not explained well, we don't know why/how the henchmen who were with Shepard got there...it's like suddenly cutting to a cute kitten being beaten to death.  Drama for no reason isn't dramatic.  It's cheap, and lazy.

This in a nutshell.

[casedawgz]

yoshibb wrote...

Dragonfable of Dain wrote...

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

syllogi wrote...

The people saying we're unrealistic fluff lovers are right. Who needs to feel good when playing a game???

I'm going to go do my taxes right now, and meditate on how gritty and realistic the experience is. There are no frivolous love interests or unnecessary happy endings when I'm writing a check to the government!!! Awesome!!!

Not all stories require a happy ending. Not all stories are even better with them. Not all games are meant to make you feel good about them. 

As games grow out of it's adolescense and start attempting to tackle more mature and human subject matter, this will become more prevalent. I find it odd that people don't harshly criticize a novel or a movie for having a bittersweet or even grim ending, sometimes are even lauded for it, yet video games are help under heavy scrutiny for it. 

I think it's because we put ourselves in the game, so when the game has a "bad" ending it makes us feel like we failed in whatever the mission was, while in movies and books we are just observers watching others make mistakes. Sooo in short it's because we take it way to personally.

Movies and books will never reach the self involvement of a game. When the character fails then it's not just them who fails, it's us who fails. It feels the same way as if I've failed in life. Except I can't make up for it in a game, the story is over.

Another thing, you can't have two games that were not tragedies and in the last game make it a tragedy. The build up is not there. Trilogies work in a manner of intro, suffering, triumph. The more invested you make a person the less accepting they will be of a tragic ending.

Not to mention this is a game of choice. If you can't choose to be anything other than miserable than you shouldn't have made a game about choice!

Sometimes, I miss when games were just about winning. You beat the giant dinosaur, you win. Hooray!

Are you a bad enough dude to save President Ronnie?

[ratzerman]

f1ndmenow wrote...

Man this might become the largest form yet in a matter of hours... Bioware is going to have eyes on it

Woo is already watching it. He was deleting spam pics earlier.

Hi Woo! I hope you have as much fun in the coming weeks as I will.

[Allworkandlowpay]

syllogi wrote...

Taking the Normandy at the last moment, and hurling it far away from Shepard, with all of his/her friends and loved ones on board, is randomly throwing in angst because they couldn't be bothered to create a truly gripping scenario.  It's not explained well, we don't know why/how the henchmen who were with Shepard got there...it's like suddenly cutting to a cute kitten being beaten to death.  Drama for no reason isn't dramatic.  It's cheap, and lazy.

I don't think we can really say that for certain until the proper context is given, now can we?

[txgoldrush]

syllogi wrote...

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

syllogi wrote...

The people saying we're unrealistic fluff lovers are right. Who needs to feel good when playing a game???

I'm going to go do my taxes right now, and meditate on how gritty and realistic the experience is. There are no frivolous love interests or unnecessary happy endings when I'm writing a check to the government!!! Awesome!!!

Not all stories require a happy ending. Not all stories are even better with them. Not all games are meant to make you feel good about them. 

As games grow out of it's adolescense and start attempting to tackle more mature and human subject matter, this will become more prevalent. I find it odd that people don't harshly criticize a novel or a movie for having a bittersweet or even grim ending, sometimes are even lauded for it, yet video games are help under heavy scrutiny for it. 

Some of my favorite novels and movies have unhappy endings.  However, they're not gratuitous.  At the end of "Requiem For A Dream" or "No Country For Old Men," I didn't feel like the directors had emotionally blackmailed me.  I felt like the endings were thematically appropriate to the story they had just told.  When pretty much all of the characters in the First Law Trilogy come out worse for wear in the end, I found it fitting, because each ending fit the individual characters, and it made sense.

Taking the Normandy at the last moment, and hurling it far away from Shepard, with all of his/her friends and loved ones on board, is randomly throwing in angst because they couldn't be bothered to create a truly gripping scenario.  It's not explained well, we don't know why/how the henchmen who were with Shepard got there...it's like suddenly cutting to a cute kitten being beaten to death.  Drama for no reason isn't dramatic.  It's cheap, and lazy.

and yet you do not have the context to judge...what if it was build up to the moment? What if the Normandy was in danger and they had to flee? What if their is build up in the romances where the characters know they may be seperated or lose eachother? You do NOT know by reading a leaked posting.

[Pax of Doom]

Allworkandlowpay wrote...
Not all stories require a happy ending. Not all stories are even better with them. Not all games are meant to make you feel good about them. 

As games grow out of it's adolescense and start attempting to tackle more mature and human subject matter, this will become more prevalent. I find it odd that people don't harshly criticize a novel or a movie for having a bittersweet or even grim ending, sometimes are even lauded for it, yet video games are help under heavy scrutiny for it. 

Then this should have been marketed as a tragedy unfolding, or the tragic tale of one human's struggle against the forbidding dark.  It should not have been marketed as "the perfect entry point into the Mass Effect universe" or even "take Earth back".  You can let Earth burn because humans will survive off that planet, or utterly change humans and every other organic species (and how is that not being shackled by Reaper tech?).  This is an action game, not an Oscar-bait game.

The great tragedies left the audience with lessons on morality and a sense of catharsis.  Will the tears that flow at the end of Mass Effect 3 be of relief, or reflection on the human state? 

Great literature doesn't always mean tragedy, and it's a sad misconception that we equate one with the other. 

[shepard1038]

My God Bioware you're so evil

[Capeo]

txgoldrush wrote...

adneate wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
and you may post even more stupid opinions based on lack of context

I belive I shall, good luck trying to convert people to your opinion though! I'm sure you'll get a convert one of these days, keep reaching for the dream.

And my opinion is better. Why? Because I do not base mine without context.

You HAVE NO CONTEXT, therefore your opinion is uneducated at best, completely idiotic at worst, just like most of the posters here.

Dude, seriously shut up with the context crap. The whole plot is out there. Seeing it is no different than reading it. There's a simple fact: your choices don't matter. All the endings are slight variations of each other. 

[T1l]

I may have cancelled my pre-order for Mass Effect 3, Bioware, but in light of this disaster I have in fact saved myself at least $128AUD. Thank you.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Allworkandlowpay wrote...

That's what we are getting here on this forum currently.

Teleportation and inbreeding aside, I think the "destroy" ending is perfect.

The disconnect here is caused by the fact that ME's tone has been fairly light, with an emphasis on triumph. ME2 had a variety of tones based on player choice. ME3, conversely, is a big dollop of grimdark with little recourse. It's consistency -- if this were WH40K, no one would bat an eye.