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[KRAETZNER]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

What does Bioware do when this thread gets to 1000 pages? I mean after that you just can't assume it'll die down.

Probably continue to insult us on twitter. Then once that gets public they'll try and hide it.

[WarBaby2]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

What does Bioware do when this thread gets to 1000 pages? I mean after that you just can't assume it'll die down.

Acheivement?^^

[Darth Garrus]

Nilofeliu wrote...

Darth Suetam wrote...

                                                Storytelling,climax and anti-climax.

                Sure, anti-climax kicks in. But anti-climax should be a feeling of emptiness after you have experienced
a well deserved climax. A feeling that actually takes you back to relive the great emotions that once took you to that warm climatic emotions.

                Sadly, that is not the case in ME3. Anti-climax is the rule, and there were no candy and flowers before.  

                As a writer, I keep telling my friends that games are an art form that go between movies and books. They have the potential to be more complex than movies, and usually can’t be as dense as a book. Especially because you have to fill it up with action and you can’t let the imagination fill the gaps as you can do in books. So, RPG games, no matter what kind of RPGs, are based on the writing. And Bioware always excelled on this. Sadly, no one is immune to certain temptations.

                Let´s take a step back and discuss the origins of some of our writings and narrative styles. Not going to try to exam all of it, as it is impossible in mere lines. But let´s take a look at some of the culprits.

                Nietzsche and the merry band of nihilists. I’ll spare us of epistemological discussions, but Fred (our pall Friedrich Nietzsche) always said that the world returned us an inverse proportionally amount of results to the  amount we wanted. In other words, frustration with results is the law. Baudrillard pointed out in a very precise way that indifferentism is killing us. But that’s the tip of a big iceberg. The problem begins when our age embraces it as a viable option. We live in an age of nihilism. I think that that youth movement described as “emo” can be our representative today. Not that we didn’t have others before, but it appears to me that is their turn to represent the generation that likes to listen to depressive songs, wear black not as fashion or a “form of expression”, but as a form of quitting hope and embracing depression. 

                The point is: our writing got to a point where “happy ends are for the weak”, supposedly for the people “who can’t see that the world is bad, and supposed to quash our hopes”. People actually demand that stories go “darker”, and every “darker” story is praised automatically, as if “darker” automatically means good writing.

                Going back to ME3. What all this has to do with ME3? Well, to start, all the endings tell you something very grim: there is no hope! Not for total happiness. Neither beating entropy. And frankly, they all tell us that we  can’t, no matter how we try, to control our creations. The only way out is to accept a new way of life, devoid of technology and restrictive of thought. If not, inevitably we will face our doom. Well, as it is stated in the game, if we had not developed, the Reapers would not take interest in us, and we would survive. What we need is a gigantic
way of control, where we would constantly be challenged not to create or expand! Live knowing that whatever you do is just a way of accelerating your doom.

                Strangely enough, Commander Shepard was exactly the antagonist of that kind of thought. His mission was to fight for what the world kept telling him was impossible. Playing Commander Shepard meant playing against the odds. Playing to defy a written in stone story that said that there was no hope if we dared to evolve and to want more. It was about fighting for freedom of speech, for freedom from joining a pattern, for freedom in its pure state. 

                Being good or bad, what the end of the game tells you, no matter how you feel about it? That there is no hope, unless you join the ranks of the obedient, and supposedly live happily being subservient. And there´s no way around it. 

                You can say: but that is just one ending. You can control the Reapers or join with them. The point is there again. You either “control” again, or get to join the band. Individuality and freedom are not in those endings either. It´s control and control and control. It´s loosing yourself, giving away your freedom of thought, and not being able to do something about it. And that´s the thing is being commented. You just can´t do something about it. And  that´s nihilism for you.

                Again, the problem is that we played a character based on defying the odds (“never tell me the odds” by another space adventurer come to mind)! We were pushed to believe that this character could rally people, make accepting kettle-like people turn into freedom fighters, and find a way to free us. From others and from ourselves.  

                Alas, we can´t. Playing Shepard was just a way of delaying the inevitable. We never stood a chance.

                So I ask: what is the virtue of playing ME again? I´m not asking what is the fun in pointing and shooting,  or relieving emotions past. I´m asking what is the virtue of role-playing Shepard? You think that there is never  virtue when you play games (you would be wrong). You may think I just should shut up and play it anyway. Like a sheep, I should just pay, play, and never look for virtue? 

                But, wait! Isn’t it exactly the message of the game? Maybe there was something in it after all. Just play and don’t question it. Don´t look for virtue.

I saw the connection the moment I finished the game but was too depressed to even do anything about it. You have come with a clear and well reasoned explanation that not only makes perfect sense, but displays the reality as it is right now.

We do not search for virtue or values nowadays, we only follow the crowds. We do not seek a prize beyond the physical, we only want instant gratification with no deeper meaning. We act as we want our choices made for us, our freedom taken away from us. This is what people call "greatness" these days.

I call it emptyness. And by the feeling of so many of my comrades and fellow players, I see that many, if not most of you share this feeling with me. The closing statement of the above post holds a value higher than any shown in the game (or in many other places as a matter of fact). It shows us that the society wants sheep, people with no individuality and no self awareness that will just do as they are told. People that will not fight against the odds and against the wrongs society forces down on us. Isn't that the same we have been hearing from many articles? That we should just be happy to have the game and enjoy ourselves regardless of our own values and morals? That we are not supposed to voice our dissatisfaction?

I for once I will remain here speaking my mind and I will not be silenced...

Perfectly put! It is emptyness. Nihilism leads to indiferentism, that  leads to emptyness.

And it is exactly what this articles are doing. Following blindly. And they want us to do the same. Just play and shut up. Well, as long as I can, I won´t shut up. And it´s good that more people won´t either.

I want more than

[SimonM72]

Thore2k10 wrote...

this is so beautiful, how can they cut something like that from the game?

That is awesome, it brought a tear to my eye.
I also lol'd at sushiman31's comment.

[People4Peace]

NPH11 wrote...

Anyone remember how big the ME: Deception thread was? I'd be interested to see how it grew compared to this thread.

Good point. If they can change an entire book, they can certainly change the last couple of minutes of ME3.

[ShaneP]

Zhijn wrote...

Conrad Verner is in ME3. I ran into him on the refugee docks on some random citadel mission. He as usually tried to be the hero only to look like total goofer. He did seem to find love tho. xD

Odd, he didn't appear on mine for some reason

[thedistortedchild]

TSC_1 wrote...

Why is Bioware so tight-lipped? At this point, a "we're changing nothing, suck it up" would be better than continued silence. At least then I could move on.

ikr I just want a definate response from them. 

[WvStolzing]

B33ker wrote...
Yup she is.  I convinced Liara to go talk to her too.

Later on when walking by Liara said something along the lines of "I have a half sister who's part Hanar?"

Was a good chuckle. 

...and she has a Krogan for a grandfather.

Why didn't I get to see this??? I was always careful to do the Citadel chores (well, they tended to get really silly. Galaxy-wide fetch quests for the exact objects that you happen to eavesdrop on?!) before something would intervene; still I had a few quests broken for no apparent reason.

Anyhow, back on topic.

[DifferentD17]

Ivon wrote...

I'm Commander Shepard, and I'm tired as ****.

Going to by room and listen to my music clock.

z_Z

Not, before inviting your LI up. ;D

[ebevan91]

beetlebailey123 wrote...

What does Bioware do when this thread gets to 1000 pages? I mean after that you just can't assume it'll die down.

It keeps going of course, unless the thread is locked and restarted due to the ridiculous amount of pages. On some forums, threads get slow and buggy when they get a lot of pages. I'm surprised this one hasn't, yet.

[IndustrializedTaco]

Hadscho wrote...

beetlebailey123 wrote...

What does Bioware do when this thread gets to 1000 pages? I mean after that you just can't assume it'll die down.

Well i guess after they close it down we make a new one?

Wouldn't that be sending the wrong message to the fans though?

[stucksuburbanite]

ShaneP wrote...

Eumerin wrote...
She's the bartender in ME2 and 3.

In ME2 she states that she suggested that the Asari ought to stop wasting their lives and do more important things such as attempt to unravel the secret of building more mass relays.  But she was a lone voice and was ignored.

There's no assignment tied to it.

Sorry, what I meant was that I missed her assignment in ME3.

Also, another couple of things confused me:

Conrad Verner and Illium were supposedly meant to be returning in ME3, and as far as I can tell neither made an appearance. What gives?

Verner was.  He was down by the refugees.  He only appears after you fix some medi-gel dispensers for a doctor.

[Prince Lex]

Astralify wrote...

Ffelan wrote...

Speaking of emotional devastation, don't know if this was heard here yet. It's the cut dialogue between Shep and Anderson in their last scene together.

FemShep:
MaleShep:

Warming: might need a hanky on hand

Too bad this was cut. It's so much more powerful.

Why did they cut that??? No words...

THIS JUST CAUSED ME TO SHED MORE TEARS. I LOVE.

[WarBaby2]

People4Peace wrote...

Good point. If they can change an entire book, they can certainly change the last couple of minutes of ME3.

Especially when there already was a better concept!

[Kronos2012]

The ending of this game sucked. None of the decisions that we made had any impact and there are huge plotholes. Like blowing up the mass relay destroys the solar system. So everyone died?. Bioware really needs to fix this. We deserve the option of a happy ending. After playing for 5 years that is the least Bioware could do.

[Matt_gekko88]

Tracy-Shepard wrote...

I feel betrayed... I want a new ending too...

Welcome to the Fleet, Soldier.

[infinitekilan]

Hadscho wrote...

beetlebailey123 wrote...

What does Bioware do when this thread gets to 1000 pages? I mean after that you just can't assume it'll die down.

Well i guess after they close it down we make a new one?

The second "I  Tali" thread got to something like 1100 pages before it was shut down due to stuff getting waaaaaaaay off topic.

The third one got to 5500 pages, and it took about a month to get to that point. And that's just from Tali love.

I doubt they'll shut this thread down so soon, especially since it's STILL on topic, and there is hardly amount of flame-war going on.

[ebevan91]

SimonM72 wrote...

Thore2k10 wrote...

this is so beautiful, how can they cut something like that from the game?

That is awesome, it brought a tear to my eye.
I also lol'd at sushiman31's comment.

They should've ended the game there and had a DA:O type epilogue slideshow thing, that would've been better than what we got.

I almost Alt+F4'd my game but decided to suffer through the last 10 minutes.

Modifié par ebevan91, 13 mars 2012 - 07:58 .

[Annaleah]

I just wish Bioware would say SOMETHING about changing the ending or DLC for the ending... Then I would at least feel relieved and could go back to my life...

[KHReborn]

I'm still writing with @masseffect on twitter. Mayby you should do the same. They like to avoid the question of a statement. But the more demand, the better.

My new conversation:

Someone: I think the strong reactions to the @masseffect ending is indicative of how invested players were with the great characters @bioware

BW: @okinawancowboy We do recognize that~

Me: @masseffect @okinawancowboy really? We don't get the feeling You writing: we get that and thanks for the input, doesnt let us feel better

BW: @khrebornfx Would a (hug) make you feel better? :/

Me: @masseffect I'm afraid that won't do it. A statement would be better.


Still waiting for answer. And i think, after this demand, I'll never get my answer ;-)

Modifié par KHReborn, 13 mars 2012 - 07:59 .

[N7 Theo]

BioWare tweeted to somebody that claimed the liked and understood the ending. They said they should treat understanding the ending like a badge of honor, and that they basically avoided the mainstream concerns.

BioWare, we all understand that the endings were poorly written/executed. I will wear this as a badge of honor, but this obviously does not avoid mainstream concerns.

[Kratz]

Thore2k10 wrote...

this is so beautiful, how can they cut something like that from the game?

Yeah this is awesome I have to say. I was really sad about Anderson...more so than Shepard tbh as his death seemed so ..."random".
 
I still believe wholeheartedly that indoctrination is at the hand of this and that the "destroy" ending reveals Shepard taking his first breath after recovering from Harbinger's beam.

Viable Points raised in this thread so far: 

(a) If this really is the end then I don't see where they can really go with their DLC from here.

( The writing through ME3 was some of the best I've encountered ever in an RPG, yet the ending (if considered and accepted )is not consistent with this in any way. Far too many loose ends.

© Why is the Catalyst the boy from Earth? The indoctrination theory seems the most viable theory at this point. 

(d) When Anderson tries to hail Shepard on the Citadel he "fortunately" falls unconcious on a rising platform and as soon as Catalyst says "wake up" he gets up like the alarm went off and he's 2 hours late for work? 

(e) The ending offers no closure whatsoever reagrding the journey you've taken with your squadmates. This isn't Bioware style at all be it KOTOR/II, SWTOR, DAO etc etc. 


Yes I can clearly be accused of being optomistic and yes, I am an optomist at heart but I'd sure rather entertain some of the great ideas here by fans and credit Bioware on a masterstroke of an ending up until they confirm that this is how the trilogy ends. Period. 

There's still at least one country that hasn't opened ME3 yet so lets hope Bioware will give some more enlightment on this after the 15th. *Crosses fingers*

[Prince Lex]

I want to replay it so badly right now but I just can't. Every time I load it up I turn it off again because of that DAMN ENDING.

[monima]

[quote]People4Peace wrote...


Conrad Verner and Illium were supposedly meant to be returning in ME3, and as far as I can tell neither made an appearance. What gives?

[/quote]

Conrad returned in mine and it was epic. I always knew he didn't have a wife and the discussion about him having a shrine to Shep is hilarious and completely makes sense. Though I wonder if the same discussion happens with Sheploo

As for Illium, you can't go there.

[/quote]

This is how Conrad "really" returns in ME3 www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par monimakitten, 13 mars 2012 - 08:00 .

[Dorfgonewild81]

KRAETZNER wrote...

beetlebailey123 wrote...

What does Bioware do when this thread gets to 1000 pages? I mean after that you just can't assume it'll die down.

Probably continue to insult us on twitter. Then once that gets public they'll try and hide it.

I think we have gotten big enough and loud enough (in a good way) that there really isn't a way for them to hide or discard this thread and reasoning behind it.  Theres only so much a company can do to silence its fans and critics before the negative effects can bite you in the end.