315 réponses à ce sujet

[tytanowy]

Ok, I get it. But... why bother giving raw ROF when you still need to add refire time for some weapons ? It would be more clear when ROF was with refire added already (in this .xls file posted by Sabresandiego), wouldn't it?
Is that because weapons will have different statistics in SP and MP ?

Modifié par tytanowy, 04 mars 2012 - 05:05 .

[ncknck]

wikipedia has it listed, "RoF" in the above table is the Cyclic Rate:

This is the mechanical rate of fire, or how fast the weapon "cycles" (loads, locks, fires, unlocks, ejects). Measurement of the cyclic rate ... does not consider operator tasks (magazine changes, aiming, etc.) ... Typical cyclic rates of fire are 500–900 RPM for assault rifles...

refire rate is the sum of other factors, resulting in

Sustained or Effective rate

This is the rate at which the weapon could reasonably be fired indefinitely without failing. In contrast to the cyclic rate, the sustained rate is the actual rate at which the weapon would typically be fired in combat. Sustained rate considers several factors, time spent reloading, aiming, changing barrels if necessary, and allowing for some cooling.

which is not in the table and we have to calculate it ourselves, which is not an easy task, since we dont know what the guns actually do in reality, so easy to make mistakes.

[themaxzero]

Shadow of Terror wrote...

On the shotguns, I don't get how anybody cannot rate the GPS or the Wraith higher than any of the other shotguns (apart from disciple due to low weight).

Wraith is the same weight as the Katana and Scimitar as well as the Eviscerator (which is better than the fist 2), yet deals far more damage per shot, pretty much making a 1 kit kill far more likely. The reason I mention the weight is because currently the weight of these guns allow charge to be recharge by the time you have charged and have double nova'd.

The GPS is a lighter claymore, that has 5 shots in, not 1. Unless the damage is charged up only, then in that case what is uncharged? Even then, Claymore on the first shot and a Eviscerator after that? Yes please.

Uncharge is 45% of the stat damage. Remember though each GPS shot fires 3 projectiles (full damage x 1, 30% damage x 2).

GPS Charged - 1143 + 343 + 343  = 1829, 2 ammo used
GPS Instant shot - 514 + 154 + 154 =  822, 1 ammo used

Thats at rank 1. It's a pretty damn effective weapon either way. Charged on the inital shot (easy if you an Infiltrator) then clean up with instant shots.

Modifié par themaxzero, 04 mars 2012 - 05:11 .

[Athenau]

which is not in the table and we have to calculate it ourselves, which is not an easy task, since we dont know what the guns actually do in reality, so easy to make mistakes.

No, refire is an actual weapon parameter in the game. It measures the minimum time between bursts.

Ok, I get it. But... why bother giving raw ROF when you still need to add refire time for some weapons ? It would be more clear when ROF was with refire added already (in this .xls file posted by Sabresandiego), wouldn't it?
Is that because weapons will have different statistics in SP and MP ?

They probably added it so that they could balance burst-fire weapons more effectively. For example, you could have a weapon with a high ROF within a burst so that all the shots would land really close together, while adding a non-zero refire would keep the total dps under control.

[ncknck]

Athenau wrote...

No, refire is an actual weapon parameter in the game. It measures the minimum time between bursts.

refire rate is in the game, sustained fire isnt, which is what i said actually. Refire rate is an averaged and simplified stat, counting for everything not implemented in the game, like cooling etc. Has to be separate, because not every weapon is full auto.

[themaxzero]

Athenau wrote...

which is not in the table and we have to calculate it ourselves, which is not an easy task, since we dont know what the guns actually do in reality, so easy to make mistakes.

No, refire is an actual weapon parameter in the game. It measures the minimum time between bursts.

Ok, I get it. But... why bother giving raw ROF when you still need to add refire time for some weapons ? It would be more clear when ROF was with refire added already (in this .xls file posted by Sabresandiego), wouldn't it?
Is that because weapons will have different statistics in SP and MP ?

They probably added it so that they could balance burst-fire weapons more effectively. For example, you could have a weapon with a high ROF within a burst so that all the shots would land really close together, while adding a non-zero refire would keep the total dps under control.

That makes sense in the case of the Vindicator, Valkyrie and Argue. Does not explain the Hurricane and Raptor though. These are a single shot burst weapons. Without refire the Raptor is OP but the Hurricane is just average. With refire they both suck.

[ncknck]

yeah, i overlooked it for the Raptor too. Makes sense on the other hand, since separate values contain more unique information, could be used in the future for, say mods affecting refire rate or something. Doesnt hurt.

Modifié par ncknck, 04 mars 2012 - 05:23 .

[Athenau]

That makes sense in the case of the Vindicator, Valkyrie and Argue. Does not explain the Hurricane and Raptor though. These are a single shot burst weapons. Without refire the Raptor is OP but the Hurricane is just average. With refire they both suck.

Yeah, I'm not going to claim that the balance is perfect (*cough* pistols *cough*), just that there's a reason to have both refire and ROF in the game as design tools.

I was really disappointed to see Raptor and Saber get smacked with a refire, since I like semi-auto rifles. Don't know why they deserved such a harsh penalty.

[royard]

Athenau wrote...

Well, Incisor and Vindicator both have huge recoil when you zoom in. I think you overlooked that.

The Incisor has a zoom recoil of .437, which seems pretty average among the rifles. The Vindicator's is .7 which is on the high side, but I'm not too worried. Recoil is easy to compensate for if it's not random. I used the Revenant a lot in ME2 and with KB/M it was very manageable. If the recoil's like the ME2 tempest which just wandered all over the place then yeah...

On the other hand, you can't do anything about the accuracy penalty short of firing slower, so that's why I paid more attention to that.

The problem is more because of the 3-shot burst.  Have you tried using Hornet in MP? 

Also, the sad part of the sotry is that Carnifex is much better than both of them. 

By the way, I don't think firing slower can help accuracy.  It helps recoil, but accuracy is constant. 

Modifié par royard, 04 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[ncknck]

hmm Carnifex better i dont think so. Headshotting on the other hand is OP so every weapon which cant make them consistently is gonna suck. The Raptor in MP was actually quite good for that, no matter dps, it is after all a long range precise assault rifle, headshotting stuff. I liked.

Modifié par ncknck, 04 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[Athenau]

The problem is more because of the 3-shot burst. Have you tried using Hornet in MP?

Nope, but the Hornet has more recoil than both and a much higher ROF so I don't think it's a good indicator of how they'll behave.

Also, the sad part of the sotry is that Carnifex is much better than both of them.

Yes, though for an infiltrator there's a case to be made for sniper rifles since one of the final cloak evolutions gives you a big damage bonus for snipers. Or you could get the free power while cloaked evolution and play salarian infiltrator--lolenergydrain...

By the way, I don't think firing slower can help accuracy. It helps recoil, but accuracy is constant.

It doesn't help base accuracy but it does help control the degradation from successive shot (the accuracy fire penalty stats). Firing slower allows the reticule to return to normal between shots.

[themaxzero]

royard wrote...

Athenau wrote...

Well, Incisor and Vindicator both have huge recoil when you zoom in. I think you overlooked that.

The Incisor has a zoom recoil of .437, which seems pretty average among the rifles. The Vindicator's is .7 which is on the high side, but I'm not too worried. Recoil is easy to compensate for if it's not random. I used the Revenant a lot in ME2 and with KB/M it was very manageable. If the recoil's like the ME2 tempest which just wandered all over the place then yeah...

On the other hand, you can't do anything about the accuracy penalty short of firing slower, so that's why I paid more attention to that.

The problem is more because of the 3-shot burst.  Have you tried using Hornet in MP? 

Also, the sad part of the sotry is that Carnifex is much better than both of them. 

By the way, I don't think firing slower can help accuracy.  It helps recoil, but accuracy is constant. 

I think there is something wrong with the Hornet mechanically. It only has a recoil of 0.1 and a zoomed recoil of 0.85. It shoots like it has a recoil of like 5 or 6. I think the Hornet has a hidden 'I am a crap gun' parameter because there is zero reason stat wise for it to behave like it does.

Modifié par themaxzero, 04 mars 2012 - 05:39 .

[Elecbender]

It actually has a recoil of 0.575. You must have been looking at the Locust. 0.85 is actually on the high end of the recoil spectrum. Even the Tempest has lower than that.

[ncknck]

Here are some pics.

Hornet spread

Raptor spread


Raptor is pretty damn strong gun. Unlike the viper it can also can be used close range, and unlike AR, its long range headshot heaven.

Modifié par ncknck, 04 mars 2012 - 06:02 .

[royard]

Athenau wrote...

The problem is more because of the 3-shot burst. Have you tried using Hornet in MP?

Nope, but the Hornet has more recoil than both and a much higher ROF so I don't think it's a good indicator of how they'll behave.

Also, the sad part of the sotry is that Carnifex is much better than both of them.

Yes, though for an infiltrator there's a case to be made for sniper rifles since one of the final cloak evolutions gives you a big damage bonus for snipers. Or you could get the free power while cloaked evolution and play salarian infiltrator--lolenergydrain...

By the way, I don't think firing slower can help accuracy. It helps recoil, but accuracy is constant.

It doesn't help base accuracy but it does help control the degradation from successive shot (the accuracy fire penalty stats). Firing slower allows the reticule to return to normal between shots.

The reason I brought Hornet up is that you will use Vindi and Inci at much longer ranges.  At that range, the slightly lower zoom recoil doesn't help much.  And you really should try Hornet before making your case, right?

ROF for burst weapon doesn't really matter much unless you hand-compensate the recoil.  I mean, I can hand-compensate automatics and semiautos, but my hand gets tired doing that for burst-fires.  That might just be me. 

And your argument about +40% sniper damage for infiltrators is just... misinformed.  Base damage is much, MUCH better than bonus damage, becuase you get to slap other modifiers on top of that.  A +130% inci deals 585 damage, but a +90% carni deals 655.  This differnce will get more pronounced when you use specialty ammo, use a rail amp, or shoot at armored targets.  And carni is better for headshots.  And that +40% damage plainly sucks when compared to use power when cloaked. 

But I see your zoomaccfire argument.  Without a reticule it's really hard to tell what's the difference. 

Modifié par royard, 04 mars 2012 - 06:06 .

[themaxzero]

Elecbender wrote...

It actually has a recoil of 0.575. You must have been looking at the Locust. 0.85 is actually on the high end of the recoil spectrum. Even the Tempest has lower than that.

It is on the high end but as you can see in the previous post you are not getting a spread like that from 0.875 recoil. A Mattack has a tighter spread then that and it has a much higher recoil.

[royard]

Elecbender wrote...

It actually has a recoil of 0.575. You must have been looking at the Locust. 0.85 is actually on the high end of the recoil spectrum. Even the Tempest has lower than that.

He is correct.  When you zoom in, you have a different recoil, and that number for Hornet is 0.85. 

[themaxzero]

royard wrote...

Elecbender wrote...

It actually has a recoil of 0.575. You must have been looking at the Locust. 0.85 is actually on the high end of the recoil spectrum. Even the Tempest has lower than that.

He is correct.  When you zoom in, you have a different recoil, and that number for Hornet is 0.85. 

I was right on the zoom recoil but wrong on the open sights recoil. Took the Locust's number.

Though to be fair 90% of my shooting is done looking through a scope.

[goofyomnivore]

deleted

Modifié par strive, 04 mars 2012 - 06:36 .

[Athenau]

The reason I brought Hornet up is that you will use Vindi and Inci at much longer ranges. At that range, the slightly lower zoom recoil doesn't help much. And you really should try Hornet before making your case, right?

It's up to you to show why a weapon that's clearly going to be affected much more by recoil is relevant to the scenario at hand. It's not my job to prove your claim.

Also, it is not "slightly" lower in the case of the Hornet vs Incisor.  It's almost twice the recoil (.85 vs .437) with more than twice the ROF (1000 vs 450).

And your argument about +40% sniper damage for infiltrators is just... misinformed. Base damage is much, MUCH better than bonus damage, becuase you get to slap other modifiers on top of that. A +130% inci deals 585 damage, but a +90% carni deals 655. This differnce will get more pronounced when you use specialty ammo, use a rail amp, or shoot at armored targets. And carni is better for headshots. And that +40% damage plainly sucks when compared to use power when cloaked.

I'm quite aware of how the damage calculation works, thank you. The carnifex has a higher damage per shot/burst, but it has lower dps than the incisor and that gap is only increased by the extra +40% you get from cloak. I don't see what "shooting at armored targets" has to do with anything, since armor/shield/barrier multipliers seem to be gone this time around.

And carni is better for headshots.

It has worse accuracy, even scoped, so unless the recoil is truly uncontrollable for the incisor the latter will be better for headshots.

And that +40% damage plainly sucks when compared to use power when cloaked.

For the salarian, yes, but not for the human. Sticky grenades don't use a cooldown and there's no real need to use cryo-blast while cloaked.  Also, see my comment about how the Incisor syncs nicely with the cloak cooldown.

ROF for burst weapon doesn't really matter much unless you hand-compensate the recoil. I mean, I can hand-compensate automatics and semiautos, but my hand gets tired doing that for burst-fires. That might just be me.

I don't see why burst weapons are magically different in this regard.

Modifié par Athenau, 04 mars 2012 - 06:39 .

[royard]

Athenau wrote...

    The reason I brought Hornet up is that you will use Vindi and Inci at much longer ranges. At that range, the slightly lower zoom recoil doesn't help much. And you really should try Hornet before making your case, right?

It's up to you to show why a weapon that's clearly going to be affected much more by recoil is relevant to the scenario at hand. It's not my job to prove your claim.

Also, it is not "slightly" lower in the case of the Hornet vs Incisor.  It's almost twice the recoil (.85 vs .437) with more than twice the ROF (1000 vs 450).

I'm really not following what you are saying anymore.  Hornet is clearly going to be affected less by the recoil since you use it at short ranges.  Inci and Vindi are more affected because you use them for longer ranges. 

Athenau wrote...

And your argument about +40% sniper damage for infiltrators is just... misinformed. Base damage is much, MUCH better than bonus damage, becuase you get to slap other modifiers on top of that. A +130% inci deals 585 damage, but a +90% carni deals 655. This differnce will get more pronounced when you use specialty ammo, use a rail amp, or shoot at armored targets. And carni is better for headshots. And that +40% damage plainly sucks when compared to use power when cloaked.

I'm quite aware of how the damage calculation works, thank you. The carnifex has a higher damage per shot/burst, but it has lower dps than the incisor and that gap is only increased by the extra +40% you get from cloak. I don't see what "shooting at armored targets" has to do with anything, since armor/shield/barrier multipliers seem to be gone this time around.

As I said, you are misinformed about the modifiers.  They exist, at least for sniper rifles (+50% vs. armor). 

Athenau wrote...

    And carni is better for headshots.


It has worse accuracy, even scoped, so unless the recoil is truly uncontrollable for the incisor the latter will be better for headshots.

Well, since you incidentally didn't even try Hornet yet, I can't argue either way, so let's just agree to disagree. 

Athenau wrote...

And that +40% damage plainly sucks when compared to use power when cloaked.

For the salarian, yes, but not for the human. Sticky grenades don't use a cooldown and there's no real need to use cryo-blast while cloaked.  Also, see my comment about how the Incisor syncs nicely with the cloak cooldown.

No real need?  You do realize that you will get shot while firing a power, right?  You sync doesn't work if you don't have this upgrade, because the time starts to run right after you fire a power in that case. 

Athenau wrote...

ROF for burst weapon doesn't really matter much unless you hand-compensate the recoil. I mean, I can hand-compensate automatics and semiautos, but my hand gets tired doing that for burst-fires. That might just be me.

I don't see why burst weapons are magically different in this regard.

Well, try it yourself after the game is out, then.  For me, it's about the rhythm.  The hand movement is constant for autos and semiautos, but jerkish for bursts. 

Modifié par royard, 04 mars 2012 - 07:08 .

[Athenau]

I'm really not following what you are saying anymore. Hornet is clearly going to be affected less by the recoil since you use it at short ranges. Inci and Vindi are more affected because you use them for longer ranges.

Again, it's your job to show that the situations are comparable. My experience (or lack thereof) with the Hornet is irrelevant. You're just repeatedly begging the question at this point.

In any case, range doesn't really matter. The recoil stat controls the angular movement of the camera. The mouse/hand movement required to compensate is the same at any range.

As I said, you are misinformed about the modifiers. They exist, at least for sniper rifles (+50% vs. armor).

Armor penetration mods exist for all weapons except SMGs. There's nothing special about pistols, or the carnifex in particular, that makes them better against armor, which was your original argument.

Edit:  If you're talking about an ME2 style armor multiplier for sniper rifles rather than the penetration upgrade, then I'd like to see some evidence please.  Of course, if it does exist then it hardly supports your point, since it makes sniper rifles relatively better against armor than pistols, not worse.

Well, since you incidentally didn't even try Hornet yet, I can't argue either way, so let's just agree to disagree.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

No real need? You do realize that you will get shot while firing a power, right? You sync doesn't work if you don't have this upgrade, because the time starts to run right after you fire a power in that case

Neither does this. What does power usage during cloak have to do with my point about the cloak cooldown and weapon reloads?

Well, try it yourself after the game is out, then. For me, it's about the rhythm. The hand movement is constant for autos and semiautos, but jerkish for bursts.

I never had a problem dealing with the recoil from the Shuriken or Vindicator in ME2 which are both burst fire weapons. But we'll see. The game will be out in 2 days and we'll find out if the carnifex is king for all six classes, or only five of them. >.<

Modifié par Athenau, 04 mars 2012 - 08:06 .

[Hoki]

ncknck wrote...

Here are some pics.

Hornet spread

Raptor spread


Raptor is pretty damn strong gun. Unlike the viper it can also can be used close range, and unlike AR, its long range headshot heaven.

II love the accuracy of the Raptor, its what the Mattock's accuracy should have been, but I hate the zooming of it. Need to get non-zoomed accuracy mods.

And like someone said above, if it cant headshot from distance, its a substandard weapon that wont be used unless it mid-close range damage is significantly higher. And since that isn't the case, weapon balance need a lot of work. I prefer the carni in almost every situation.

[royard]

Athenau wrote...

I'm really not following what you are saying anymore. Hornet is clearly going to be affected less by the recoil since you use it at short ranges. Inci and Vindi are more affected because you use them for longer ranges.

Again, it's your job to show that the situations are comparable. My experience (or lack thereof) with the Hornet is irrelevant. You're just repeatedly begging the question at this point.

In any case, range doesn't really matter. The recoil stat controls the angular movement of the camera. The mouse/hand movement required to compensate is the same at any range.

As I said, you are misinformed about the modifiers. They exist, at least for sniper rifles (+50% vs. armor).

Armor penetration mods exist for all weapons except SMGs. There's nothing special about pistols, or the carnifex in particular, that makes them better against armor, which was your original argument.

Edit:  If you're talking about an ME2 style armor multiplier for sniper rifles rather than the penetration upgrade, then I'd like to see some evidence please.  Of course, if it does exist then it hardly supports your point, since it makes sniper rifles relatively better against armor than pistols, not worse.

Well, since you incidentally didn't even try Hornet yet, I can't argue either way, so let's just agree to disagree.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

No real need? You do realize that you will get shot while firing a power, right? You sync doesn't work if you don't have this upgrade, because the time starts to run right after you fire a power in that case

Neither does this. What does power usage during cloak have to do with my point about the cloak cooldown and weapon reloads?

Well, try it yourself after the game is out, then. For me, it's about the rhythm. The hand movement is constant for autos and semiautos, but jerkish for bursts.

I never had a problem dealing with the recoil from the Shuriken or Vindicator in ME2 which are both burst fire weapons. But we'll see. The game will be out in 2 days and we'll find out if the carnifex is king for all six classes, or only five of them. >.<

I'm just addressing a few points. 

Range matters when you use burst-fire, becuase at longer ranges you have to be really precise with your manual compensation.  1 degree is not a lot in close range when the enemy is large and your presicion with compensation matters less.  1 degree is more at longer ranges because of that. 

I am talking about ME2 style rock-paper-scissors modifier.  If sniper rifles still have their +50% against armor, pistols in all likelyhood also have them.  I just don't have hard evidence for pistols. 

Cloak power usage have something to do with your sync because firing a power takes time.  Unless you don't use cryo at all, you lose a bit of cloak time by firing a power, since your cloak goes away when you shoot your power and you can't immediately fire after the power. 

ME2 Vindicator had almost no recoil, as compared to ME3 hornet.  You'll see. 

[Athenau]

Range matters when you use burst-fire, becuase at longer ranges you have to be really precise with your manual compensation. 1 degree is not a lot in close range when the enemy is large and your presicion with compensation matters less. 1 degree is more at longer ranges because of that.

On paper you have less margin for error at range. In practice, the recoil isn't random and once you've committed the movement to muscle memory it becomes a non-issue.

I am talking about ME2 style rock-paper-scissors modifier. If sniper rifles still have their +50% against armor, pistols in all likelyhood also have them. I just don't have hard evidence for pistols.

What's your hard evidence for sniper rifles? And again, I have to ask what's your point here? Even if I accept that ME2 style modifiers are in play for both pistols and SR's, it doesn't matter unless the pistol multiplier is larger.

Cloak power usage have something to do with your sync because firing a power takes time. Unless you don't use cryo at all, you lose a bit of cloak time by firing a power, since your cloak goes away when you shoot your power and you can't immediately fire after the power.

I'm still not following you. My cloak cooldown/reload example was for cloak alone. Obviously if you're using other cooldown powers it doesn't apply, but if you're using other powers it's most likely for CC rather than damage. My other point is that the utility of using cryo from cloak is limited, which makes the "free power while cloaked" evolution less attractive for the human infiltrator. I can't think of many scenarios where I'd want to use cryo while cloaking instead of just firing my weapon immediately (offensive) or retreating to a better position while cloaked (defensive).

ME2 Vindicator had almost no recoil, as compared to ME3 hornet. You'll see.

Yes, but the comparison is to the Incisor, not the Hornet.