Sovereign needed Saren to use the Conduit to access the Citadel Relay, then gain access to Citadel Control and hand it over to Sovereign. Why couldn't Saren, as a Spectre, just walk up to Citadel Control and transfer control to Sovereign without the use of the Prothean Beacon and everything that came afterwards?
Aside from "because the game would be boring". I'm looking for a justifiable plot reason. Did he really need the geth to raid the Citadel? I'm not so sure. If he never allied himself with the geth, he never would have been found out as a traitor, and I think post-indoctrination, he could have easily waltzed in and done everything he needed without the hunt for the Conduit.
Question about ME1
Débuté par
cipher86
, févr. 29 2012 04:50
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#2
Posté 29 février 2012 - 01:42
Tonymac
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Saren was working for Sovereign - and needed a Prothean Beacon in order to figure out what the Conduit was. You see, Sovereign was trying to figure out why the Citadel did not work in the first place. Sovereign had sent the signal, yet the Keepers ignored it. Sovereign had spent a long time trying to figure out why the Citadel was 'defective', and needed to recruit allies.
The Conduit is just a piece of the puzzle from Ilos - its how the Protheans got from Ilos to the Citadel. The 12 Protheans who had survuved the last extinction cycle had sent a word of hope through the Beacon Network - some had survived, where to find them, and some info about the Conduit Project. They thought that this was safe because the Beacon message was coded for an organic mind - and a Prothean one at that. This is why Sovereign needed Saren - Sovereign could not access the Beacons at all. However, Saren was a Turian, and could not access the data either - this is why they needed the Cypher. Only the Thorian had the Cypher - hence the invasion of Feros.
Essentially, Sovereign needed Saren and the Geth for a few reasons:
1) To get Beacons - This required force, as the people of Eden Prime, etc. will not give them up willingly. Sovereign also wants his tracks covered - i.e. the bombs you had to disable on the platforms.
2) To get the Cypher - Conatix is using the colony on Feros to study the Thorian. The Geth are needed to gain access to the Thorian, and remove all traces of it existence.
3) To get the location of the Mu Relay - Matriarch Benezia was used as a pawn (much like Saren) to force the information from the Rachni Queen. The location of the Mu Relay was only known by the Rachni, then you can decide to wipe them out (again) or not. Without the location of the Mu Relay you cannot get to Ilos - finding a cold relay in space heated by a supernova is nearly impossible.... so they had to interrogate the Rachni Queen, who pass on ancestral memories.
4) To gain control of the Citadel Master Control unit - once Saren is stripped of his Spectre status he is a known enemy to the people of the Galactic community. He cannot waltz into any location in Citadel Space without being arrested.
5) Saren is just a pawn of Sovereign, and Sovereign needs to take full control of the Citadel - this requires him to actually be there. Remember that when the 12 Prothean researchers went through the Conduit they changed how the signal from the Reapers was transmitted to the Keepers - so that it would be ignored / misunderstood by the Keepers. Sovereign plans to use the Geth to replace the Keepers. If you did the "Keeper Research" quests in ME1, you even get an e-mail explaining a little more about the Keepers. In any event, Sovereign must physically be in the Citadel and perform the jobs of the Keepers manually in order to re-align the the Relays and the Citadel to Dark Space. Thus it follows that he would need an invasion fleet (Geth). The more damage that Saren did inside of the Citadel would cause confusion and delay any organized defenses.
As you can see, Sovereign needed the Geth to have any chance at all of taking the Citadel. Sovereign also wanted his tracks covered on Eden Prime, Ilos, Noveria, Virmire. Sovereign was using Saren to access the beacons as well - so he needed Saren. You can see that the Reaper was playing his pawns like a very good chess master - he just grew overconfident or desperate.
The Conduit is just a piece of the puzzle from Ilos - its how the Protheans got from Ilos to the Citadel. The 12 Protheans who had survuved the last extinction cycle had sent a word of hope through the Beacon Network - some had survived, where to find them, and some info about the Conduit Project. They thought that this was safe because the Beacon message was coded for an organic mind - and a Prothean one at that. This is why Sovereign needed Saren - Sovereign could not access the Beacons at all. However, Saren was a Turian, and could not access the data either - this is why they needed the Cypher. Only the Thorian had the Cypher - hence the invasion of Feros.
Essentially, Sovereign needed Saren and the Geth for a few reasons:
1) To get Beacons - This required force, as the people of Eden Prime, etc. will not give them up willingly. Sovereign also wants his tracks covered - i.e. the bombs you had to disable on the platforms.
2) To get the Cypher - Conatix is using the colony on Feros to study the Thorian. The Geth are needed to gain access to the Thorian, and remove all traces of it existence.
3) To get the location of the Mu Relay - Matriarch Benezia was used as a pawn (much like Saren) to force the information from the Rachni Queen. The location of the Mu Relay was only known by the Rachni, then you can decide to wipe them out (again) or not. Without the location of the Mu Relay you cannot get to Ilos - finding a cold relay in space heated by a supernova is nearly impossible.... so they had to interrogate the Rachni Queen, who pass on ancestral memories.
4) To gain control of the Citadel Master Control unit - once Saren is stripped of his Spectre status he is a known enemy to the people of the Galactic community. He cannot waltz into any location in Citadel Space without being arrested.
5) Saren is just a pawn of Sovereign, and Sovereign needs to take full control of the Citadel - this requires him to actually be there. Remember that when the 12 Prothean researchers went through the Conduit they changed how the signal from the Reapers was transmitted to the Keepers - so that it would be ignored / misunderstood by the Keepers. Sovereign plans to use the Geth to replace the Keepers. If you did the "Keeper Research" quests in ME1, you even get an e-mail explaining a little more about the Keepers. In any event, Sovereign must physically be in the Citadel and perform the jobs of the Keepers manually in order to re-align the the Relays and the Citadel to Dark Space. Thus it follows that he would need an invasion fleet (Geth). The more damage that Saren did inside of the Citadel would cause confusion and delay any organized defenses.
As you can see, Sovereign needed the Geth to have any chance at all of taking the Citadel. Sovereign also wanted his tracks covered on Eden Prime, Ilos, Noveria, Virmire. Sovereign was using Saren to access the beacons as well - so he needed Saren. You can see that the Reaper was playing his pawns like a very good chess master - he just grew overconfident or desperate.
#3
Posté 29 février 2012 - 10:03
cipher86
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Tonymac wrote...
4) To gain control of the Citadel Master Control unit - once Saren is stripped of his Spectre status he is a known enemy to the people of the Galactic community. He cannot waltz into any location in Citadel Space without being arrested.
Exactly, only after he allied himself with the Geth did this become problematic. Say the Keepers picked up Sovereigns signal, would they need an army to cause a diversion while they activated the relay? No, and neither does Saren. Once indoctrinated, Sovereign would have given the information he needed to activate the relay. He could have then entered the Citadel and done this without the aid of the Geth. They're really just a plot device to give us an enemy to fight and a reason for the game to have conflict. That's it.
#4
Posté 01 mars 2012 - 03:03
swenson
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No, the geth were a critical part of the plan. Sovereign is tough, but not impregnable. Maybe it would've been difficult, but the entire Citadel fleet pounding on him--plus any other militaries that managed to get in--would've taken him down eventually, before he could get do whatever it is he had to do with the Citadel to open the relay. So he needed distractions to keep the fleet off his back--the geth ships.
Also, the controls were sitting in the middle of the Council Chambers. Even a Spectre would get some funny looks--and probably be asked some very serious questions involving lots of guns--if he just walked up and started messing around with a computer console no one had ever seen before. He also needed someone to get people off his back--the geth. And the only way to get that many geth onto the Citadel (and into the Council Chambers) was to use the Conduit, the "back door" into the Citadel. The idea in both of these cases was not simply to gain access to the Citadel, it was to control the Citadel, both the space around it and actually on the ground.
The reason it would've been easy for the Keepers to do it without anyone noticing is because they do strange things with the Citadel all the time. You can overhear a conversation on the Presidium (outside the Consort's chambers, I believe) where someone is talking about how the Keepers completely rearranged her office one day. People are used to that. Geth, though? They would stand out a little bit more!
Finally, as for why Sovereign used geth rather than some other, organic slaves? Probably because the geth were easy to control, with their centralized intelligence. Organics are probably harder to indoctrinate, and most indoctrinated slaves are pretty openly nuts, so they wouldn't be much use, even if Saren *could* somehow get a whole army of them onto the Presidium without using the Conduit.
Also, the controls were sitting in the middle of the Council Chambers. Even a Spectre would get some funny looks--and probably be asked some very serious questions involving lots of guns--if he just walked up and started messing around with a computer console no one had ever seen before. He also needed someone to get people off his back--the geth. And the only way to get that many geth onto the Citadel (and into the Council Chambers) was to use the Conduit, the "back door" into the Citadel. The idea in both of these cases was not simply to gain access to the Citadel, it was to control the Citadel, both the space around it and actually on the ground.
The reason it would've been easy for the Keepers to do it without anyone noticing is because they do strange things with the Citadel all the time. You can overhear a conversation on the Presidium (outside the Consort's chambers, I believe) where someone is talking about how the Keepers completely rearranged her office one day. People are used to that. Geth, though? They would stand out a little bit more!
Finally, as for why Sovereign used geth rather than some other, organic slaves? Probably because the geth were easy to control, with their centralized intelligence. Organics are probably harder to indoctrinate, and most indoctrinated slaves are pretty openly nuts, so they wouldn't be much use, even if Saren *could* somehow get a whole army of them onto the Presidium without using the Conduit.
#5
Posté 01 mars 2012 - 11:52
Colinissile
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I'm not gonna lie, until I read this thread, I did not completely understand the entirety of the ME1 story - and I have beat the game at least 8 times. So thanks, Swenson and Tony.
#6
Posté 01 mars 2012 - 09:06
Tonymac
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^ Any time. Its actually a deep story, well written and thought out. I love how we play Shepard - the central element putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
The Protheans did us an incredible favor. As I understand it, they will help even more in ME3, but I am not sure how. I am extremely anti-spoiler; I have no real data on this other than some very vaguely worded hints from the Devs.
ME2 has a much more simple plot - it essentially sets us up for ME3, and shows us the 'galactic landscape' as is seen from the point of view of organics. Although we have the Citadel Council, organics do not work together very well. The Prothean extinction was different in that only the Protheans were in the Galactic community. They stood as one, but they fell because of the surprise attack and inability to use the Mass Relays, which get switched off during an invasion cycle. Having an IFF will prove most valuable in ME3, in my opinion. This may be capitalized on if we can replicate it. (keep in mind - this is all speculation.)
We also get some very good ideas into the workings of Reaper intellect. They are genetic wizards! They have an incredible grasp of physics AND genetics - as can be seen from what they did with the Protheans in making Collectors. We also get an idea of Reaper lifespans and just how many extinction cycles have been going on. A Reaper that has been dead for 37 million years means a LOT of extinction cycles have occurred. We still have no idea how many were made per cycle, but it follows that there are a LOT of Reapers.
I for one, think it will be a blast!
The Protheans did us an incredible favor. As I understand it, they will help even more in ME3, but I am not sure how. I am extremely anti-spoiler; I have no real data on this other than some very vaguely worded hints from the Devs.
ME2 has a much more simple plot - it essentially sets us up for ME3, and shows us the 'galactic landscape' as is seen from the point of view of organics. Although we have the Citadel Council, organics do not work together very well. The Prothean extinction was different in that only the Protheans were in the Galactic community. They stood as one, but they fell because of the surprise attack and inability to use the Mass Relays, which get switched off during an invasion cycle. Having an IFF will prove most valuable in ME3, in my opinion. This may be capitalized on if we can replicate it. (keep in mind - this is all speculation.)
We also get some very good ideas into the workings of Reaper intellect. They are genetic wizards! They have an incredible grasp of physics AND genetics - as can be seen from what they did with the Protheans in making Collectors. We also get an idea of Reaper lifespans and just how many extinction cycles have been going on. A Reaper that has been dead for 37 million years means a LOT of extinction cycles have occurred. We still have no idea how many were made per cycle, but it follows that there are a LOT of Reapers.
I for one, think it will be a blast!
#7
Posté 01 mars 2012 - 09:55
Tonymac
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cipher86 wrote...
Tonymac wrote...
4) To gain control of the Citadel Master Control unit - once Saren is stripped of his Spectre status he is a known enemy to the people of the Galactic community. He cannot waltz into any location in Citadel Space without being arrested.
Exactly, only after he allied himself with the Geth did this become problematic. Say the Keepers picked up Sovereigns signal, would they need an army to cause a diversion while they activated the relay? No, and neither does Saren. Once indoctrinated, Sovereign would have given the information he needed to activate the relay. He could have then entered the Citadel and done this without the aid of the Geth. They're really just a plot device to give us an enemy to fight and a reason for the game to have conflict. That's it.
Sovereign, as I stated, HAS to be at the Citadel in order to manually align all of the Relays. There are a lot of Keepers! There is no way that Saren could pull this off solo. We should also note that Indoctrination reduces mental capacity.
The Citadel IS a Mass Effect Relay - and a huge one. Managing all of the power sources, weights and masses of each Reaper, relative velocities - from ALL of the relays can be controlled from the Citadel. Remember why we have EDI in mass Effect 2? She can do things that Organics cannot - and EDI is actually made from Sovereign. That is why there are so many Keepers in all of the Wards and Citadel Tower, as well as the 'underbellies' of the wards - places where protein vats are and all sorts of dangerous equipment. Many tasks have to be performed simultaneously in order to make the Citadel perform as a Mass Relay. Only a Reaper, or a whole herd of Keepers can pull this off. This is intentional by design - the Reapers do not want the Citadel inhabitants to figure out that they live in/on an enormous Mass Relay. One of their biggest advantages is the "Surprise Attack", or "knife in the back".
I'm pretty sure the Citadel fleet would notice Sovereign trying to sneak in and hang out on the Citadel Tower so that he could link up with the Master Control Panel and do his task. There also has to be a person at the Master Control Panel to operate it and then turn it over to Sovereign. Keep in mind - this is the alternate means of using the Citadel as a Relay. Normally, the Vanguard sends a signal, the Keepers do all of the work - and the Reapers pour through from Dark Space.
So, if you don't have Geth as muscle, you have a dude at a panel in the MIDDLE of the Presidium chambers playing with a new panel, out in the OPEN, and a Dreadnaught sized bug thingy just hanging around like everything is cool, and that he is supposed to be there. It is NOT going to work! Also, as stated: Sovereign is going to replace Keepers with Geth - because the Protheans figured out how to change the code and or the signal that compells them to the task of opening the Relay. I grant you, this last bit of info is not main plot, but it is stated/hypothesized by Vigil.
There is also one other fine point here that needs mentioning again. As Vigil stated, a Reaper is not invincible. Sovereign was desperate! He had to open the Relay by force, and he knew he needed backup. If he really was invincible, then why close the station arms around himself ? He knew he could get toasted. His sheilds are amazing though - no doubt about it. A full on collision with a Dreadnaught was an amazing hit. If you study some physics, then you know what I mean. That huge hit did not even phase Sovereign! What seemed to mess him up, actually, was the fact that he was trying to manually align the Citadel Relay while fighting Shepard via the Saren Avatar. Shepard used the data file from Vigil to lock Sovereign out of the Master Control unit (temporarily) - and Sovereign was then stuck with the task of decrypting the Prothean file from Vigil, while fighting Shepard, while fighting the Citadel Fleet. Once the Alliance arrived it got much more desperate for him, but the loss of that avatar caused his shields to drop. Quite simply, he was tasked beyond his capacity. Once his shields came down, it was a swan song.
It should also be noted - this fight was incredibly desperate on the side of the Citadel and 5th Fleets. If Sovereign had not lost his shields due to the destruction of the Saren Avatar, he would have succedded. We simply did not have the firepower to pull it off.
